Doing A Boil With A Massive Amount Of Extract

[OppR2nist]

So I'm planning some big beers in the future, and I'm curious how much volume is the threshold. For example, if I'm working with a 5 gallon recipe, how much extract can I add before there's a concern it won't fit in my 5 gallon pot?

 

[Yaksha808]

5.1 gallons of extract.... sorry had to do it.

Honestly it should be fine as long as you still are able to dilute the extract down

 

[boydster]

Not sure at what density it would become a problem, but if you add most of the extract at flameout it is a non-issue. I would add 3 or so pounds at the beginning (usually I use DME, especially during the boil) and then add the rest when I turn off the burner.

 

[OppR2nist]

And that wouldn't mess up the hop schedule?

 

[boydster]

That's an open discussion. I've seen many people say that hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, others will say that they are related. My palate isn't that of a BJCP judge, nor do I have the scientific equipment to test my wort to offer a proof one way or the other, but I personally don't find that my hop bitterness or flavor are greatly impacted by doing late extract additions. My wort darkens less though, because of fewer Maillard reactions, and that is a big plus.

I have a IIPA recipe with an OG of 1.080 and I use Briess Golden Light DME and a pound of turbinado sugar to help dry it out a little. 3 pounds of DME go in at the beginning, the rest goes in at flameout with the sugar. I start my boil with 4.5 gallons of water.

 

[OppR2nist]

Well just as an example, my mightiest recipe is an Imperial Stout that, with a pound and a half of honey, comes in at over 20 lbs. of liquid. I don't know what that looks like volume-wise, but it seems like it might top out my 5 gallon pot.

 

[Coupleathree]

Get a bigger pot?

 

[boydster]

It's probably a couple gallons, maybe a little less even. Water is 8.something-or-other pounds per gallon, and your extract is much denser than water.

 

[evrose]

edit

 

[OppR2nist]

So if I steep with 2 gallons, then add all that extract, it will still only be about 4 gallons? That's good to know. I suppose then that the initial water I put in the fermenter will have to be much lower than the 2 gallons I usually start with.

 

[boydster]

Since the sugar is going into solution, the total volume will be less than the volume of the extract plus the volume of the water, so less than 4 gallons.

 

[GuldTuborg]

That's an open discussion. I've seen many people say that hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, others will say that they are related.

In terms of bitterness due to isomerization of AAs, it's well documented that this is related (inversely) proportionally and predictably to wort gravity. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong.

 

[boydster]

In terms of bitterness due to isomerization of AAs, it's well documented that this is related (inversely) proportionally and predictably to wort gravity. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong.

Teach me. Do you have a reference you can share?

This is from HBT and Palmer apparently said he got it wrong when you said the two were linked.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hop-utilization-178668/

 

[ivegot2legs]

Edit: life is too short

 

[boydster]

Mass and volume are not the same.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenotesl3/a/miscibility.htm

 

[ivegot2legs]

Edit: life is too short

 

[strangegreenman]

Bit by the barleywine bug? You should be fine to brew 5 gallons of 1.110 in a 5 gallon pot. Be prepared to have it darken, and be sure to adjust the hops schedule since high-gravity wort doesn't extract from the hops so well.

Here, have this: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-9
Check out 'High Gravity Brewing.'

 

[boydster]

For a solution as simple as sugar and water like you are pointing out, you cannot assume for "our" or anyone's purposes that the volumes are additive. I don't know where you get that impression?

If you add sugar to water, you get an appreciably smaller volume than the starting volume of the sugar plus the starting volume of the water. A simple Google search gives plenty of results, but here are a couple -

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090813120347AA801i4
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16238740

I don't have data on LME and how it effects volume when dissolved in water, but your comparison to simple sugar doesn't back up your point that the volumes can be treated as additive and your point that conservation of mass somehow proves conservation of volume is false.

I was simply pointing out to the OP that he may very well end up with less than 4 gallons in his pot if he combines 2 gallons of LME and 2 gallons of water - a true statement. How much less? I don't know. Is it going to be a noticeable amount? Again, I am not entirely sure.

 

[boydster]

Found this regarding boil gravity and hop utilization after looking around, lots of sources but I think this one paraphrased it pretty well:

The podcast "High gravity brewing" with John Palmer discusses this at the 18 minute mark.

To paraphrase, John says that hop utilization does decrease with higher wort gravity, but not because of solubility as originally thought (the difference in solubility between 1.040 and 1.080 is negligible), but mostly because there are more solids in the wort that the iso-alpha acids stick to, keeping them out of the wort and so reducing bitterness.

The original tables of hop utilization were made on an empirical basis, and they are still valid. What has changed is the cause of the decrease in bitterness is now better understood.

There's also a podcast by John P. and Jamil Z. and discussion of the utilization issue here.

So hop utilization is not necessarily affected by the boil gravity but is directly related the boil gravity because of additional solids in the higher gravity wort. Very interesting, and good to know. I had read posts from Yooper and others saying boil gravity didn't affect hop utilization, but those posts leave out that there is still a connection between the two even if it is a correlation rather than a causation.

 

[OppR2nist]

Ah. I have just started listening to Brew Strong. I'll go back and give those High Gravity episodes a listen. Thanks.

 

[nab911]

Found this regarding boil gravity and hop utilization after looking around, lots of sources but I think this one paraphrased it pretty well:



So hop utilization is not necessarily affected by the boil gravity but is directly related the boil gravity because of additional solids in the higher gravity wort. Very interesting, and good to know. I had read posts from Yooper and others saying boil gravity didn't affect hop utilization, but those posts leave out that there is still a connection between the two even if it is a correlation rather than a causation.

INDIRECTLY. I never thought about this in my 19 batches I have made. I always just assumed you added the extract in the beggining as you are brining it to a boil and that was the point of the boil, aside from hop additions of course. Always had good beer but only a few great ones. So I guess after steeping, you could add just a little extract in and save the rest for flame out and get a lot more out of your hops.