Does Mashing Specialty Malts Result in a Higher OG?

[derekp83]

This is not a question that should result in "you don't need to mash specialty grains" lol. I'm aware, however, I'm taking an all grain recipe from Brew Your Own British Real Ale (3rd edition) by Graham Wheeler (Arkell's Mash-Tun Mild) and converting it to a partial mash recipe in Brewtarget.

Under "Method," should my specialty grains be set to "mashed" like the 2-row I'm putting in the recipe? Obviously, when I do that, it increases the OG, but does that really occur with specialty grains in the mash, or does one get the same amount of sugars from specialty grains regardless of whether it's steeping for 30 mins or mashing for 45 mins?

Thanks for any input!

 

[day_trippr]

"2 row" would not be a "specialty grain", that term is generally used to refer to base malt. If you're actually referring to a crystal malt, that's totally different.
As "2 row" has sufficient diastatic power to convert itself (and then some) steeping it at 150°F will effect conversion of the starches to "sugars", which would indeed raise the net OG of your brew...

Cheers!

 

[BigEd]

There's no reason to separate specialty grains from base malt if you're doing an actual mash, partial or full. If anything it saves time and effort. As far as gravity difference my guess is that it's not a big deal either way, however, there are some specialty malts (Weyermann CaraFoam for one) that do contain uncoverted starch. In that case it will certainly make a difference. Unmalted grain like flaked barley, wheat, corn, etc should always be added to the mash.

If your talking about OG increase in the brew program results I would look closely at what it is actually giving you an OG increase on. I've read a number of posts with similar questions that imply to me that some programs are calculating gravity increases from ingredients that do not yield any. For instance if you add dark roasted grain or other types with no sugar content and the OG goes up in the program then it isn't making a correct calculation.

 

[derekp83]

"2 row" would not be a "specialty grain", that term is generally used to refer to base malt. If you're actually referring to a crystal malt, that's totally different.
As "2 row" has sufficient diastatic power to convert itself (and then some) steeping it at 150°F will effect conversion of the starches to "sugars", which would indeed raise the net OG of your brew...

Cheers!

I know. I'm referring to specialty grains like crystal and chocolate malt being in the mash with 2-row.

 

[Qhrumphf]

You may get *some* extra gravity from mashing specialty grains as opposed to steeping them, but it likely won't be much. They do, however, often add some needed pH buffering downward (depending on the grain bill, the goal, and the starting water supply).

 

[derekp83]

There's no reason to separate specialty grains from base malt if you're doing an actual mash, partial or full. If anything it saves time and effort. As far as gravity difference my guess is that it's not a big deal either way, however, there are some specialty malts (Weyermann CaraFoam for one) that do contain uncoverted starch. In that case it will certainly make a difference. Unmalted grain like flaked barley, wheat, corn, etc should always be added to the mash.

If your talking about OG increase in the brew program results I would look closely at what it is actually giving you an OG increase on. I've read a number of posts with similar questions that imply to me that some programs are calculating gravity increases from ingredients that do not yield any. For instance if you add dark roasted grain or other types with no sugar content and the OG goes up in the program then it isn't making a correct calculation.

Your second paragraph addresses what I'm getting at. That was my concern, that the program is adding more points than it should, so if this is true, I should not set the specialty grains as mashed in the recipe, although they'll be in the mash.

 

[bracconiere]

For instance if you add dark roasted grain or other types with no sugar

my understanding roast barley would need to be mashed, but black patent, or chocolate malt wouldn't.....they've already had their starch converted in the kernel, and then carmelized by roasting....so both would increase OG, but probably also FG.....(of course i get bone dry beer adding gluco with even 2-3 pounds of black patent?)

 

[artichoke]

To answer the OP's question, Specialty grains which have already undergone conversion like crystal malts contribute gravity points to the OG, whether you mash them or not. As far as the tool you are using goes, I am not familiar with it.

- AC

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

There's no reason to separate specialty grains from base malt if you're doing an actual mash, partial or full. If anything it saves time and effort. As far as gravity difference my guess is that it's not a big deal either way, however, there are some specialty malts (Weyermann CaraFoam for one) that do contain uncoverted starch. In that case it will certainly make a difference. Unmalted grain like flaked barley, wheat, corn, etc should always be added to the mash.

If your talking about OG increase in the brew program results I would look closely at what it is actually giving you an OG increase on. I've read a number of posts with similar questions that imply to me that some programs are calculating gravity increases from ingredients that do not yield any. For instance if you add dark roasted grain or other types with no sugar content and the OG goes up in the program then it isn't making a correct calculation.

I'm confused by this (and that's not a hard thing to do). You say Weyermann Carafoam has unconverted starch and mashing will increase the OG. Won't the starch, converted or otherwise increase the OG? Isn't it really a matter of fermentability? Is it both? Can you elaborate a bit. I'm always amazed that, even after tons of reading and brewing for the last 4 years, I'm still learning new stuff all the time.

 

[ducati]

Chapter 12 in John Palmer's book "How to Brew" is titled "Understanding Malted Barley and Adjuncts." The first edition is available to read free on-line here. Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew

This may answer some of your questions.

 

[BigEd]

I'm confused by this (and that's not a hard thing to do). You say Weyermann Carafoam has unconverted starch and mashing will increase the OG. Won't the starch, converted or otherwise increase the OG? Isn't it really a matter of fermentability? Is it both? Can you elaborate a bit. I'm always amazed that, even after tons of reading and brewing for the last 4 years, I'm still learning new stuff all the time.

Starch will give you a gravity increase but it's not something you want in the wort. I'll also admit to being a bit confused by the OP's question but my point was that in the long list of specialty/adjunct ingredients there are some that should not be steeped but only mashed. Fully converted crystal malts along with dark roasted malts are fine for steeping because they don't have any starch to convert. You will want to convert any ingredients containing starch to sugar via the mash.

The other issue, which I didn't fully grasp at the time, is with various brewing programs. Disclaimer: I don't use one. As I mentioned in my first reply I have seen a number of inquiries here and on other forums regarding brewing programs calculating gravity seemingly based on ingredient weight alone. For sure this could confuse novice brewers by giving them an OG number that is higher than it actually is.

 

[VikeMan]

Fully converted crystal malts along with dark roasted malts are fine for steeping because they don't have any starch to convert.

However, there's really no such thing as a fully converted crystal malt. They all have some (low) amount of unconverted starch. I believe Carafoam probably has the most, and the Briess C-Malts have much less.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Starch will give you a gravity increase but it's not something you want in the wort. I'll also admit to being a bit confused by the OP's question but my point was that in the long list of specialty/adjunct ingredients there are some that should not be steeped but only mashed. Fully converted crystal malts along with dark roasted malts are fine for steeping because they don't have any starch to convert. You will want to convert any ingredients containing starch to sugar via the mash.

The other issue, which I didn't fully grasp at the time, is with various brewing programs. Disclaimer: I don't use one. As I mentioned in my first reply I have seen a number of inquiries here and on other forums regarding brewing programs calculating gravity seemingly based on ingredient weight alone. For sure this could confuse novice brewers by giving them an OG number that is higher than it actually is.

I would guess that depends on the beer you're brewing. I love big RIS's with high final gravity. They're a bit sweet (but the sweetness is different from lactose IMO) and they're rich, thick and viscous. I work pretty hard to make sure there are plenty of unconverted starches to allow it to finish high.

As far as software goes, most programs I've seen use weight, but that's in conjunction with a points per lb potential based on the type of grain. I've found them to be very accurate. I use Brewer's Friend, for example, and I routinely hit my numbers with a point and frequently I'm spot on. It helps to have some consistency with your rig.

At the micro brewery level, lot's of pros use Beersmith. I doubt they'd be using it if it wasn't a reasonably accurate tool.

 

[BigEd]

However, there's really no such thing as a fully converted crystal malt. They all have some (low) amount of unconverted starch. I believe Carafoam probably has the most, and the Briess C-Malts have much less.

True but I'm just assuming everyday practicality on this.

 

[BigEd]

I would guess that depends on the beer you're brewing. I love big RIS's with high final gravity. They're a bit sweet (but the sweetness is different from lactose IMO) and they're rich, thick and viscous. I work pretty hard to make sure there are plenty of unconverted starches to allow it to finish high.

As far as software goes, most programs I've seen use weight, but that's in conjunction with a points per lb potential based on the type of grain. I've found them to be very accurate. I use Brewer's Friend, for example, and I routinely hit my numbers with a point and frequently I'm spot on. It helps to have some consistency with your rig.

At the micro brewery level, lot's of pros use Beersmith. I doubt they'd be using it if it wasn't a reasonably accurate tool.

I didn't say all programs do it. I'm sure the very popular Beersmith is quite accurate. The program the OP mentioned I had never heard of (another poster didn't know it either) and I have to guess that after seeing a number of similar questions asked by several homebrewers there are some less than 100% accurate programs out there. As for starch in beer, that's your choice.

 

[VikeMan]

I would guess that depends on the beer you're brewing. I love big RIS's with high final gravity. They're a bit sweet (but the sweetness is different from lactose IMO) and they're rich, thick and viscous. I work pretty hard to make sure there are plenty of unconverted starches to allow it to finish high.

I'm guessing you mean "unfermentable dextrins" and not unconverted starches? If you really do mean unconverted starches, how are you accomplishing that?

 

[w8av]

Crystal malts are made by a procewss in which the the grain is "mashed" in the husk. It is then kilned to produce a very hard and glassy texture. They are fermentable and will add gravity points to the beer (extracr potential 1.020-1.030). Dextrine malts (like Carapils) have longer chain carbohydrates that are not broken down by amylase enzymes and are not totally fermentable (extract potential also 1.025-1.035). Both add gravity points to the beer as well. The extract potentials are taken from Stephen Snyder's Brewmaster's Bible.

Crystal malts and dextrine malts can be added to the mash. There is some discussion on ome of the forums as to whether to add darker grains to the mash like roasted barley and black barley (which are roasted unmalted barley) or black patent and chocolate malts (which are malted and kilned at a high temperature and and have a potential extract of 1.020-1.025) or adding these grains to the mash after conversion during the mashout and sparge. Gordon Strong suggests keeping them out until the mashout to keep the mash pH from getting too low, others say they need to be added to the mash along with all other malts because it impacts the flavor of the finished beer. I have been doing the former to keep my mash pH in line for my darker beers and am going to do some experimentation to see if it really makes that much difference in flavor.

 

[derekp83]

Boy oh boy this has gone off the rails. I was merely asking if I get any extra gravity from mashing specialty grains for 45 mins than I would steeping for 30. I'm doing a Mild so I want my numbers to be fairly accurate with such a low OG (1.036).

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'm guessing you mean "unfermentable dextrins" and not unconverted starches? If you really do mean unconverted starches, how are you accomplishing that?

you are correct

 

[bwible]

Starch will give you a gravity increase but it's not something you want in the wort. I'll also admit to being a bit confused by the OP's question but my point was that in the long list of specialty/adjunct ingredients there are some that should not be steeped but only mashed. Fully converted crystal malts along with dark roasted malts are fine for steeping because they don't have any starch to convert. You will want to convert any ingredients containing starch to sugar via the mash.

The other issue, which I didn't fully grasp at the time, is with various brewing programs. Disclaimer: I don't use one. As I mentioned in my first reply I have seen a number of inquiries here and on other forums regarding brewing programs calculating gravity seemingly based on ingredient weight alone. For sure this could confuse novice brewers by giving them an OG number that is higher than it actually is.

Starch and dextrines are unfermentable, so if you get additional gravity points from them then you will have a higher final gravity at the end. Some bacteria can eat starch.

I use BeerTools since I have a mac and I do not own a pc. BeerTools is one of the few that runs on mac. I did notice that I get pretty poor efficiency sometimes but not all the time. I have been setting it at 69%. thought some of this was due to losses from trub and dead space. I then started calculating recipes as 4 gallons with .5 gallon boil off leaving 3.5 gallons in order to get 3 gallons at the right gravity. An additional pound of grain is not a big deal.

Overall I really like BeerTools. This is something I may now have to look at.