Does Crazy equipment = home brew slow down?

[MidAtlanticBrew]

I've thinking about some of the new product introductions I've seen lately and it has me wondering what could be driving companies to develop and launch what I see as irrational products.

I know this will offend some so I'm not using the tradenames here but examples include .... Quickinline carbonation, corny keg conical, brew wifi-vision, expensive hardend cata-plastic fermenters, 10 gallon brite tanks, and a host of breadmaker like kitchentop appliance brew systems.

I see this as a sign that the homebrew growth bubble is bursting, or at least deflating. As revenue of tried and true products softens, companies seem to be trying desperately to keep revenue growing, even if it means products that look clever, but are not that useful or differentiated. It kinda makes me sad, these are small companies run by good people with clever employees and if it is a signaling a slow down, it will effect the whole value stream down to the LHBS. I hope I'm wrong

 

[passedpawn]

I think it's slowing down. Craft beer is everywhere. Less need for homebrewing. But then there's the DIY types that will continue to brew, even if a brewery opens up next door. So it's not going away.

 

[55x11]

I've thinking about some of the new product introductions I've seen lately and it has me wondering what could be driving companies to develop and launch what I see as irrational products.

I know this will offend some so I'm not using the tradenames here but examples include .... Quickinline carbonation, corny keg conical, brew wifi-vision, expensive hardend cata-plastic fermenters, 10 gallon brite tanks, and a host of breadmaker like kitchentop appliance brew systems.

I see this as a sign that the homebrew growth bubble is bursting, or at least deflating. As revenue of tried and true products softens, companies seem to be trying desperately to keep revenue growing, even if it means products that look clever, but are not that useful or differentiated. It kinda makes me sad, these are small companies run by good people with clever employees and if it is a signaling a slow down, it will effect the whole value stream down to the LHBS. I hope I'm wrong

all the products you mentioned - the people buying them are not doing it for the first brew. They probably have been brewing for at least a year or a few years, and looking to upgrade or get a "new toy".

So if anything, the up-scale equipment keeps the homebrewing industry going.
Which I guess is good. But you are right, there may be a "bubble" bursting. How many people are out there who want to brew? Perhaps we reached saturation. And since most people won't replace their kettles or fermenters every few months, or even every year, how else do the companies expect to make a profit?

 

[ong]

I think part of what you're seeing is a transition from a few hardcore dyed-in-the-wool brewers to a much larger, less intense demographic. Maybe Joe has always been casually interested in brewing his own beer, but he's not going to spend weeks fabricating his own equipment. Having pre-built all-in-one brewing "systems" makes him feel more confident, and dropping $1500 on a brew setup doesn't feel too painful for him.

 

[Moose_MI]

Maybe we'll get lucky and have a recession to encourage folks to come back to homebrewing .... Aaaaah...those were the days...

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

I think the diehards will always be around but I don't see that crew buying into equipment like quick carb. We all know how to burst and keg shake, and usually have a pipeline of beer. It's actually not so much the money, but another piece of equipment to clean and sanitize to get carbed beer a little quicker. I would not take one of these if it were gifted to me. I have enough to equipment clean and sanitize.

Another ominous sign is the craft beer state. Proliferation has led to a lot of bad beer out there. I was around and enjoying good beer during the first consolidation of craftbrewing in the mid ninties. Back when Pete's Wicked was an awesome beer. As that consolidation started, I remember all the bad beer, from bandwagon craft brewers, disappearing almost overnight

 

[milldoggy]

Pete's wicked, those were the days. Jw Dundee's brown ale, mmm

Edit,.it was a honey brown all, still mmm

 

[milldoggy]

I like all the innovation, not all products will last, the good ones will. I built my Kal clone, spent 6 months, and been constantly improving over the last 5 years. I wish I had the options back then that we have now.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

I do as well Milldoggy, the last 5 to 8 years has been great as BIAB has made it much easier for people to get into all grain. Electric brewing moving things inside, and I also like the competition on stainless fementation vessels which has really lowered the price point.

Newer innovations that I personally like include ferment in a kettle, mfabe (username) CIP system, the internal coil cooled /heated fermentors

Innovations I would love to see is lower cost hot side controls, and lower cost but clean looking cask ale solutions

 

[Bobby_M]

Homebrewer growth has flatlined but the high end products are there catering to aging long term brewers. The demographic is shifting to higher incomes with less time. That's where turnkey systems make sense.

 

[dmtaylor]

With the advent of Facebook and smartphones in every pocket, people tend to waste all their time on that sh*t and thus have far less time to actually learn any hobby or skill like homebrewing. If they want to brew, they're happy to blow the cash on fancy crap so that they don't have to understand what they're doing but can get it done anyway. Or can buy gifts for friends with the same problems as they have. A lot of products these days I think are intended more as gifts from the wealthy to the wealthy as opposed to things you would actually purchase for your own practical use.

As for me, I'll never buy any of it as I am happy as a clam brewing on my stovetop, BIAB, with buckets and colanders and a hose, the same floating thermometer and hydrometer that I got back in 1999. No chiller, no aeration, no stirplate -- that's all unnecessary expensive crap. I do have a mill but that was a gift. The blender worked just fine for "milling" the grains before that.

 

[mongoose33]

It's called "innovation." Or, if you will, the free market at work.

There is no value, IMO, in trying to decide how people should enjoy their hobbies--if homebrewing is a hobby. Or if it's anything else.

I'm reminded of a publishing company years ago that put out magazines for niche markets. Rather than do extensive market research to determine if demand existed for, say, left-handed canoeists in Maine, they simply put out such a magazine. If it sold, they put more resources into it. If not, they cut their losses and moved on.

That is, IMO, the essence of a free market economy. If you have an idea for a product, make it and see if there's a demand for it. Everything you listed above can have a use in a particular situation. it's up to potential purchasers to decide if it works for them.

Such an approach lets the market decide, rather than trying to use "logic" to decide.

 

[passedpawn]

With the advent of Facebook and smartphones in every pocket, people tend to waste all their time on that sh*t and thus have far less time to actually learn any hobby or skill like homebrewing. If they want to brew, they're happy to blow the cash on fancy crap so that they don't have to understand what they're doing but can get it done anyway. Or can buy gifts for friends with the same problems as they have. A lot of products these days I think are intended more as gifts from the wealthy to the wealthy as opposed to things you would actually purchase for your own practical use.

As for me, I'll never buy any of it as I am happy as a clam brewing on my stovetop, BIAB, with buckets and colanders and a hose, the same floating thermometer and hydrometer that I got back in 1999. No chiller, no aeration, no stirplate -- that's all unnecessary expensive crap. I do have a mill but that was a gift. The blender worked just fine for "milling" the grains before that.

Sour grapes?

Brewing is a hobby. If people want to spend X dollars on their hobby, there's no valid criticism of that.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Imagine the irony of a vision of homebrew pioneers waxing nostalgic as they criticize our new fangled gears. "Fancy pumps, PIDs, 'lectric pots, ..."

 

[mongoose33]

Maybe we'll get lucky and have a recession to encourage folks to come back to homebrewing .... Aaaaah...those were the days...

We're in a recession. Have been for quite a while.

 

[dmtaylor]

Sour grapes?

Brewing is a hobby. If people want to spend X dollars on their hobby, there's no valid criticism of that.

I'm not sour. I just pragmatic and realistic. I prefer to waste money on more useful or educational endeavors.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Wait a minute Dmtaylor ... how have you managed to keep using the same hydrometer since 1999? I break one on average every three brew sessions and have taken to buying them in lots of 5

 

[mongoose33]

I'm not sour. I just pragmatic and realistic. I prefer to waste money on more useful or educational endeavors.

More useful or educational to whom? Why, you of course.

There hasn't been a single thing I've bought for homebrewing that I haven't learned something from or from which further questions haven't sprung. I've learned about fermentation, water chemistry, yeast health, enzymes, thermal properties of coolers used as mash tuns....I could go on. And on. And on.

I've even bought a few items that didn't seem to work correctly or optimally--and even from those, I've learned a few things about how I might have done it differently, or I've developed questions as to why they don't work as I might have expected.

What shocks me is that there are people who will spend upwards of $50 for a single entree at a restaurant, the value of which is absolutely gone within 3 hours. Unbelievable.

<the last to indicate metaphorically, "To Each His Own." Or her.>

 

[dmtaylor]

Wait a minute Dmtaylor ... how have you managed to keep using the same hydrometer since 1999? I break one on average every three brew sessions and have taken to buying them in lots of 5

I got lucky after dropping it at least twice if not three times. By some miracle it never broke. However the paper inside slipped every time so now it reads 0.003 high and I have to remember to subtract that every time I use it. Other than that, it's more reliable than the refractometer (which I also received as a gift).

 

[dmtaylor]

More useful or educational to whom? Why, you of course.

There hasn't been a single thing I've bought for homebrewing that I haven't learned something from or from which further questions haven't sprung. I've learned about fermentation, water chemistry, yeast health, enzymes, thermal properties of coolers used as mash tuns....I could go on. And on. And on.

I get your point. Each of us values different things. I'm not as sour as I seem. We should meet up some time for some homebrews.

 

[TX_Brewing]

Different stroke for different folks. I have tried a number of different brewing methods, but have found the one I like and am sticking with it to dial in my process. I don't have many fancy items, and the ones I do have I got a great deal on.

Oh and I still use my original hydrometer from 1996... But not the enameled pot I started with.

 

[mongoose33]

I get your point. Each of us values different things. I'm not as sour as I seem. We should meet up some time for some homebrews.

Absolutely. I think it'd be fun to get the Wisconsin contingent of HBT--and anyone else who wanted to be involved--together at some central point for a very large Homebrew Club. Or just to put faces to the names.

I head to Green Bay (and north) once in a while. I try to coordinate w/ an order from RiteBrew. Next time I'm in the area.....

 

[dirtybear7]

I think the diehards will always be around but I don't see that crew buying into equipment like quick carb. We all know how to burst and keg shake, and usually have a pipeline of beer. It's actually not so much the money, but another piece of equipment to clean and sanitize to get carbed beer a little quicker. I would not take one of these if it were gifted to me. I have enough to equipment clean and sanitize.

Another ominous sign is the craft beer state. Proliferation has led to a lot of bad beer out there. I was around and enjoying good beer during the first consolidation of craftbrewing in the mid ninties. Back when Pete's Wicked was an awesome beer. As that consolidation started, I remember all the bad beer, from bandwagon craft brewers, disappearing almost overnight

I've been brewing for about 7 years. I bought the Quickcarb and love it. It isn't hard to clean or sanitize. To each his own, I don't like shaking my kegs and I prefer the more precise method of the Quickcarb. I also have a bad back, so the less lifting of kegs, the better.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I, for one, adore the "concept" of the bread machine breweries.

I've been brewing for over a decade and no longer have any interest in innovating new recipes or further refining process. I want beer, with minimal cleanup, and minimal real estate requirements.

 

[55x11]

With the advent of Facebook and smartphones in every pocket, people tend to waste all their time on that sh*t and thus have far less time to actually learn any hobby or skill like homebrewing. If they want to brew, they're happy to blow the cash on fancy crap so that they don't have to understand what they're doing but can get it done anyway. Or can buy gifts for friends with the same problems as they have. A lot of products these days I think are intended more as gifts from the wealthy to the wealthy as opposed to things you would actually purchase for your own practical use.

As for me, I'll never buy any of it as I am happy as a clam brewing on my stovetop, BIAB, with buckets and colanders and a hose, the same floating thermometer and hydrometer that I got back in 1999. No chiller, no aeration, no stirplate -- that's all unnecessary expensive crap. I do have a mill but that was a gift. The blender worked just fine for "milling" the grains before that.

I think there is actually a resurgence of "craft" everything - beer, cheese, kombucha, pickling, smoking meat, cold-brew coffee, - among millennial hipster types, which could be putting some steam into home-brew industry. I get a lot more questions about my home-brew from 20-something than from 50 or 60-somethings.

And people buying fancy expensive equipment are not the 20 year olds, they are usually seasoned brewers - probably baby boomers - with extra cash to burn. Many of them are more interested in recipe formulation, and want brewday to be efficient and hassle-free, and so they may not care about DYI projects of piecing together a brewing system on the cheap. Or they already have it and want something more beautiful and efficient.

I don't blame them and I can't guarantee I won't go that route at some point. I can certainly see the appeal of push-button, electrical and automatic system. (for now I am happy with my 70qt Coleman Cooler converted to mash tun, 50" home-made immersion chiller, 20G pot with home-made valves for 10G batches, a dozen or so fermentors, mostly PET kind, a dozen or so kegs and 9 tap keezer with 3 nitro taps I DIY - I could argue my current setup is more functional and flexible than BIAB on kitchen stove or extract brewing, plus bottling, but it also cost a lot more $$ -especially the keezer parts - same could be said about 1bbl conicals or automated push-button brewing).

This is actually the great thing about home brewing - you can produce good or even great beers with some knowledge and very basic setup that cost about $100 (extract, kitchen pots, 1G jugs from apple juice, thermometer you may already have, hydrometer and some basic sanitizing/bottling/transfer equipment), or scale up to BIAB, and all-grain, convert coolers to mash tuns, drill holes and install ball-valves in 10G or 20G pots, make your own immersion chillers from copper tubing, scale up to kegging by converting freezers into keezers, or you can keep going and get into stainless steel conicals, electrical, fully automated, HERMS/RIMS, glycol chillers, oak barrels for aging, nitro taps, water chemistry, you can re-harvest your yeast and grow your own hops, roast your own grains and make your own candi sugar/syrup, design and print your own labels, wax or cage your bottles, or you can buy kits online and keep it simple, and focus on some other aspects of brewing. In other words - go from $100 to maybe $10K and up.

I think it's great that everyone can find their own price point/comfort/convenience point, geek out on cool shiny equipment, or immerse themselves in DYI projects, one can geek out on biology (yeast, mash process), physics (heating/cooling, and carbonation/gas handling), or chemistry (water salts/acids/pH), or keep it super basic and unscientific and still get great beer in the end.

 

[Horseflesh]

I think there is actually a resurgence of "craft" everything - beer, cheese, kombucha, pickling, smoking meat, cold-brew coffee, - among millennial hipster types...

I'm into that stuff and I am in my 40s!

And people buying fancy expensive equipment are not the 20 year olds, they are usually seasoned brewers - probably baby boomers - with extra cash to burn. Many of them are more interested in recipe formulation, and want brewday to be efficient and hassle-free, and so they may not care about DYI projects of piecing together a brewing system on the cheap.

Recipe formulation and an easier brewday are exactly why I recently upgraded to a more automated electric setup. I've been brewing on the cheap for a while with AG in coolers, and extract before that, but now I am at the point where I want to see what difference 2 degrees of mash temperature makes. I want to re-brew with some different grains and see how the flavor changes. Those explorations are much easier with the shinier equipment.

I also want to learn about water chemistry and creating specific water profiles, and having an easier brew day means that I have more time to spend on other topics like that.

I do like toys, but because of what the toys let me do and learn, not just 'cuz they are shiny.

Like you said, the great thing about this hobby is there's a place for every style of brewer.

 

[Homercidal]

Still got the same hydrometer I bought back in '90 when I started in this hobby. FWIW. I honestly don't know how so many people keep breaking them. Maybe the quality has gone downhill since then?

I like seeing the new fangled gadgets coming out. I don't usually see a need for them, or can afford them, but nothing wrong with someone trying different means and helping those who have more money than time and effort.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Craft beer is everywhere right now. The market may be oversaturated, but it is growing. Craftbrew feeds homebrew feeds craftbrew. People thought it would be flying cars and domed cities in the future. The real future has arrived with the knowledge and capability to entertain ourselves in novel ways with little risk. These products are the beginning, not the end. Every house will have a simple highly variable homebrew appliance. We all have future jobs as homebrew repairmen.

 

[ChelisHubby]

Craft beer is everywhere right now. The market may be oversaturated, but it is growing. Craftbrew feeds homebrew feeds craftbrew. People thought it would be flying cars and domed cities in the future. The real future has arrived with the knowledge and capability to entertain ourselves in novel ways with little risk. These products are the beginning, not the end. Every house will have a simple highly variable homebrew appliance. We all have future jobs as homebrew repairmen.

So I need to develop my Palate so I can trouble shoot beers as a second job, I like the Idea but probably won't pay the car off. But I should have no trouble getting a Buzz.

 

[augiedoggy]

With the advent of Facebook and smartphones in every pocket, people tend to waste all their time on that sh*t and thus have far less time to actually learn any hobby or skill like homebrewing. If they want to brew, they're happy to blow the cash on fancy crap so that they don't have to understand what they're doing but can get it done anyway. Or can buy gifts for friends with the same problems as they have. A lot of products these days I think are intended more as gifts from the wealthy to the wealthy as opposed to things you would actually purchase for your own practical use.

As for me, I'll never buy any of it as I am happy as a clam brewing on my stovetop, BIAB, with buckets and colanders and a hose, the same floating thermometer and hydrometer that I got back in 1999. No chiller, no aeration, no stirplate -- that's all unnecessary expensive crap. I do have a mill but that was a gift. The blender worked just fine for "milling" the grains before that.

Wait you use a stove? And have a blender? Don't you find it ironic that you have these fancy appliances for cooking but think tools that make brewing easier (and possibly better) are all in essay crap?
I all for saving money but if it really does work and make the hobby more enjoyable with more consistent results (just like a stove vs a fire) then I don't see it as jink just because I can't justify the cost to myself on my budget.

 

[dmtaylor]

Wait you use a stove? And have a blender? Don't you find it ironic that you have these fancy appliances for cooking but think tools that make brewing easier (and possibly better) are all in essay crap?
I all for saving money but if it really does work and make the hobby more enjoyable with more consistent results (just like a stove vs a fire) then I don't see it as jink just because I can't justify the cost to myself on my budget.

We're *still* talking about this? My apologies for the excessive tangent on this thread.

Blow your cash on whatever sh*t you like, I don't care.

 

[passedpawn]

The term "sour grapes" and "green from envy" all come from the Fox and the Grapes fable. (i.e., the grapes were not ripe, but green and sour).

 

[TheHopfather]

I would think for these equipment companies the most profitable customer is the newbie. Unless you have a steady stream of new brewers buying new equipment kits and then upgrading to better equipment eventually you won't have anyone to sell to. Established brewers already have all of their equipment, you aren't going to be making a ton of money selling 15lbs of grain and some hops to these guys.

So how do you correct that? Come up with new products aimed at established brewers, some might stick, some won't. They're just trying to keep a steady stream of revenue.

 

[Homercidal]

Or hobbyists or engineers have a design they think will enhance the hobby, or they can at least sell, and they come up with a product to sell and hope people buy it.

I recently had the good fortune to check out an all-in-one fermentor and serving system. I think it was basically a conical fermentor that turned into a kegerator after the beer was fermented.

On the surface this seems like a useful thing. But the design had a few things that limited it's appeal for most, I think. For instance, you couldn't have more than a single batch in it at a time. So while you are serving one batch, you don't have another in the pipeline. It's expensive. Most homebrewers would not drop that kind of coin when they could upgrade their brewing system AND get a standard kegging system too.

It's nice looking, and backed by a major appliance company's design division, so it's not just some dude's ebay parts tossed together in his garage.

It's just one of those things that a person with lots of money can afford to play with, but won't make much sense for the average person. Most innovations are at least designed to improve some aspect of the hobby. Tabletop brewing systems are great for those who don't want to design and piece together their own systems, or for those who live in apartments with limited space. At the end of the day, while they are "blingy", they still get the job done.

I'm just leery of people like Brewnanny. Make sure it's a product before you send any money!

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

@Passed pawn, I enjoy debate and am interested in finding truth through reason. The fable you quoted is a presumed analogy to brewing equipment ambitions. In this case Dmtaylor has a brewing setup so at worst he has less sweet grapes. Your analogy is comparing apples and oranges and is therefore invalid.

 

[dmtaylor]

@Passed pawn, I enjoy debate and am interested in finding truth through reason. The fable you quoted is a presumed analogy to brewing equipment ambitions. In this case Dmtaylor has a brewing setup so at worst he has less sweet grapes. Your analogy is comparing apples and oranges and is therefore invalid.

Correct. I have zero ambitions except perhaps to share my thoughts and opinions and experiences with others, regardless of others' declarations of right, wrong, indifferences, or incorrect analogies.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

This thread has turned fruity, oranges I can take in Wit, but apples and grapes. People, reduce your fermentation temperatures

 

[Littletimmy]

The sound you hear is the sound of your hard earned money going down the "hobby hole." Doesn't matter what hobby, I've spent $150 on a plant that lived 1 year, just to capture the desired genetics in my plant breeding program. YOU have to decide when to plug the drain, everyone has a different tolerance level. I embrace that someone is always looking to better the hobby, I decide if can work for me, my budget and whether I want to spend the $$....

 

[augiedoggy]

I understand the point of this thread and do see the fact that everyone and thier brother is trying to profit off of this "trend" even with some of the micro brewery and tap rooms you can tell were opened just to make a quick buck...

But to say a mill or a chiller is an unnecessary piece of crap is pretty silly IMHO. I buy my grain in sacks and the mill saves me a lot of money and time since I can mill it before use without it going stale and the store charges more for milled grain. the chiller alos saves me time since I do not have to wait for the wort to naturally cool before adding yeast, plus It does make a different when Im able to bring the yeast down blow 77 degrees even on a hot summer day since some people dont care for fusel alcohols.

To me brewing it an enjoyable thing and just like a chef with his or her kitchen equipment I like to use equipment that makes that more enjoyable. if a person feels they dont need it thats great but it doesnt make everyone who has or uses it a fool either, which seemed to be the tone set by dmtayler..

 

[dmtaylor]

I understand the point of this thread and do see the fact that everyone and thier brother is trying to profit off of this "trend" even with some of the micro brewery and tap rooms you can tell were opened just to make a quick buck...

But to say a mill or a chiller is an unnecessary piece of crap is pretty silly IMHO. I buy my grain in sacks and the mill saves me a lot of money and time since I can mill it before use without it going stale and the store charges more for milled grain. the chiller alos saves me time since I do not have to wait for the wort to naturally cool before adding yeast, plus It does make a different when Im able to bring the yeast down blow 77 degrees even on a hot summer day since some people dont care for fusel alcohols.

To me brewing it an enjoyable thing and just like a chef with his or her kitchen equipment I like to use equipment that makes that more enjoyable. if a person feels they dont need it thats great but it doesnt make everyone who has or uses it a fool either, which seemed to be the tone set by dmtayler..

Ugh, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said a mill or chiller is an unnecessary piece of crap. Continuing this off-tangent discussion like this, however, might prove very unnecessary and crappy. Enough already with the bashing of anyone with a dissenting view. We don't all need to agree with one person's opinion. Never been on the interwebs before? :eyeroll:

[/my peace]