Does all chloride and sulfate (ppm) make it to the kettle?

[Hedo-Rick]

I've been looking for an answer to this, but the conversations I've seen always seems to be focused around calcium loss and what's levels are proper for an ale or lager.

If I build my mash water to have 50 ppm chloride and 100 ppm sulfate, and run my sparge with roughly 4 gallons, will all the chloride and sulfate make it to the kettle? Or is some of it absorbed in the mash, even though it's rinsed with 4 gallons of water?

 

[FunkedOut]

I'm no chemist, but I'd say that once the minerals are in solution, the mash will not cause them to fall out.
There will be some strike water that is absorbed by the grain. That absorbed water contains minerals. Still, the 1st runnings should contain 50ppm chloride and 100ppm sulfate, unless the grist added some (doubtful).

If your sparge water contains no minerals, then the absorbed water will be diluted. Calculations for how much of the minerals make it to the kettle, I cannot help you with. But I would imagine that the percentage would somewhat mirror the sugar percentages.
Keep in mind that, even if all of the minerals make it to the kettle, that initial strike water will be diluted with your sparge water and the kettle ppm's will be less.
Further, after the boil, the ppm's will be more than pre-boil.

My approach is to treat the strike/mash and sparge water with flavor ions (chloride, sulfate, sodium, magnesium, calcium) such that the final ppm's in the kettle (pre-boil) match the intended target profile.
The closed loop feedback comes from tasting the finished beer and making adjustments to the intended target profile.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

is some of it absorbed in the mash, even though it's rinsed with 4 gallons of water?

Yep, pretty much everything you do to a wort changes the mineral content.

Michael Tonsmeire wrote about this in last September's BYO - the original article was called Mineral Profile in the Glass but it's now on their website (behind a paywall with a free trial) as How Water Minerals Change Through Brewing.

 

[mabrungard]

Sulfate and chloride are very soluble anions. While I don't have direct evidence, I would be surprised if they got tied up much in the mash. I would expect the sulfate and chloride added to your water would generally make it into the wort.

 

[ajdelange]

...I'd say that once the minerals are in solution, the mash will not cause them to fall out.

The notable exceptions to that are calcium and magnesium both of which are precipitated in reaction with malt dervied phosphate. At the same time malt contains calcium and magnesium (quite a bit of the latter). This is in various bound and unbound forms and not all of it is released to the wort/beer. It also contains other minerals which the plant needs for its metabolism and which must be present in the soil if the plant is to thrive. Given the N-P-K ratings for fertilizers we may assume that nitrogen, phosphorous (which we've already mentioned) and potassium are important ones.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What tragedy would befall the beer if all of the added chloride and sulfate did not make it into the kettle? Since most of us add our minerals to the strike (mash) water, you certainly would not be alone in your approach. If most of us are generally happy with the outcome, there is no unique reason or set of circumstances via which you should not likewise be happy.

 

[Smellyglove]

I asked AJ Delange the exact same question some weeks ago. He presented some formula and said that the chlorides and sulphates does get garried over to the boil.

Edit: Oh, there he is, just above my post.

 

[Smellyglove]

What tragedy would befall the beer if all of the added chloride and sulfate did not make it into the kettle? Since most of us add our minerals to the strike (mash) water, you certainly would not be alone in your approach. If most of us are generally happy with the outcome, there is no unique reason or set of circumstances via which you should not likewise be happy.

No tragedy, but something to be curious about. I started to to research this a while ago because I got curious if I added x amount of cacl, does it all get carried over. Can I say that I'm boiling with that same amount chlorides as I'm mashing with? Did I the x amount of chlorides give this mouthfeel I was perceiving, or was it just half of them?