Do "professional" brewers consider brulosophy to be a load of bs?

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What has big beer or craft beer stolen from homebrew? I don't understand this idea.

Don't interpret this so literally. He put "stolen" in quotation marks because the source of a lot of techniques, and hell, styles originated on a homebrew scale.

Continuous hopping
New England IPA

... just to name the first couple that come to mind. His real point was that new ideas often originate in the homebrew world where there are far more brewers trying far more things. It makes sense for them not to ignore what's happening there.
 
Don't interpret this so literally. He put "stolen" in quotation marks because the source of a lot of techniques, and hell, styles originated on a homebrew scale.

Continuous hopping
New England IPA

... just to name the first couple that come to mind. His real point was that new ideas often originate in the homebrew world where there are far more brewers trying far more things. It makes sense for them not to ignore what's happening there.

I would agree with this..innovation happens at on a small scale first almost 100% of the time. I also think alot of times when homebrewers go pro, they forget where they came from and the continual innovation in the homebrew space that is always ongoing that could provide that *spark* to streamline their brewery costs or create that next *unique* beer that could be a legacy beer, etc.

Honestly, I have met a few pro brewers that don't give homebrewers a second thought once they go pro. I get alot of "dismissive" reactions on occasions when talking about some of my homebrew batches or literature I pick up here or other places w/them which I know they dont mean as snarky, but still sounds that way.

Brulosphy is yet another journey in homebrewing that provides knowledge to some, not all. As someone else mentioned, its a tool that you can either dismiss, or adopt and use and that goes for pro brewers and homebrewers alike.
 
yes but I think I'm in the already persuaded camp.

I agree with the concerns about palate fatigue but do think this could be reasonably addressed by asking testers to take a few minutes before the test to clear palates--and then provide some water and bread. I've listened to the tests being done on Basic Brewing Radio and I've noticed the testers tend to be motivated to try hard and take pride in getting the right answer. They quickly forget that they are the instrument and think they are being tested not the beer.

Yes, there are ways to overcome some of the concerns.

I presume that most if not all the tasters in Marshall's exbeeriments are motivated to pick the odd one out. The reward would be to have their views recorded and expressed in the preference survey.

That's part of what makes the fact that so many cannot pick the odd one out so interesting to me.

And that's why I'm interested in knowing the conditions under which the tasters did the triangle test. Are there conditions external to the test which are masking results, i.e., palate fatigue, just had a big onion and garlic burger, tasters have had six beers already and are three sheets to the wind, you know the list.

Or is it just the nature of the beasts (tasters)? :) In his book "For the Love of Hops," Stan Hieronymus notes that there are certain hop flavors that some people are unable to perceive. Is that part of what's going on in these tests? I tend to discount that with these triangle tests and yet, it's a part of the puzzle.
 
That's part of what makes the fact that so many cannot pick the odd one out so interesting to me.

And that's why I'm interested in knowing the conditions under which the tasters did the triangle test. Are there conditions external to the test which are masking results, i.e., palate fatigue, just had a big onion and garlic burger, tasters have had six beers already and are three sheets to the wind, you know the list.

Or is it just the nature of the beasts (tasters)? :) In his book "For the Love of Hops," Stan Hieronymus notes that there are certain hop flavors that some people are unable to perceive. Is that part of what's going on in these tests? I tend to discount that with these triangle tests and yet, it's a part of the puzzle.

I believe the issue is that it is actually much harder to pick the correct sample than we imagine. Check out this experiment:
http://www.wine-economics.org/aawe/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/AAWE_WP165.pdf

These were entirely different beers. Large group of tasters. Sounds pretty rigorous. Nevertheless struggled to tell the beers apart.
 
I believe the issue is that it is actually much harder to pick the correct sample than we imagine. Check out this experiment:
http://www.wine-economics.org/aawe/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/AAWE_WP165.pdf

These were entirely different beers. Large group of tasters. Sounds pretty rigorous. Nevertheless struggled to tell the beers apart.

Having been a part of two or Marshall's xBMT's, I was surprised how difficult it was. I failed to correctly identify the different beer both times....

I will be the first to admit I don't have the best palate and nose, even though I am BCJP recognized.

I did a blind triangle test with my Sierra Nevada pale ale clone vs. the real thing and failed. My wife, who doesn't particularly care for beer and has little knowledge of beer evaluation/judging, passed. Go figure...
 
I also think alot of times when homebrewers go pro, they forget where they came from and the continual innovation in the homebrew space that is always ongoing that could provide that *spark* to streamline their brewery costs or create that next *unique* beer that could be a legacy beer, etc.

Honestly, I have met a few pro brewers that don't give homebrewers a second thought once they go pro. I get alot of "dismissive" reactions on occasions when talking about some of my homebrew batches or literature I pick up here or other places w/them which I know they dont mean as snarky, but still sounds that way.

This sounds awful and I'm glad the breweries near me aren't this way. We have 4 local breweries and all 4 of them are actively involved with the local homebrew club. They sell us grain at wholesale prices, they each host us at least once a year, they attend 1 or 2 meetings a year, and they sponsor homebrew competitions where the winning beer is brewed on their system.
 
Is the problem that we think the brewer at a small-ish ("local") brewery is "one of us," when he's not really? Maybe he has access to scientific journals with articles about brewing science? So Brulosophy (etc.) is backyard amateur science?
 
I think some folks ascribe too much prestige and/or knowledge to the 'Pro Brewer' label. I've met some and some of them are like homebrewers with huge systems, and some seem to know even less. Just because someone has a brewery does not mean they're knowledgeable about the brewing process, and some don't care to learn anything more than they currently know.
 
I think some folks ascribe too much prestige and/or knowledge to the 'Pro Brewer' label. I've met some and some of them are like homebrewers with huge systems, and some seem to know even less. Just because someone has a brewery does not mean they're knowledgeable about the brewing process, and some don't care to learn anything more than they currently know.

That's probably true. The reverse is also true.
 
Funny, actually just a few mins ago I was reading about a Professional brewer who was trying to better understand how to make a particular style he just couldn't figure out. He said he lurked for a bit, then joined an internet forum about making beer. He said he hated to join such a thing, as do just about all professionals, because it tends to lead to lots of criticism and questioning. But in the end he learned what people were looking for, and created a beer they can't produce enough of.

I think of it like this - I'm really into coffee roasting. Not a professional, but have a good understanding of the process and make better coffee than many many people. I'm also on a facebook group for "home roasters" and there are a lot of more-novice people on that page who do things which don't make sense. Doesn't mean it's wrong...it's just not my thing, and I know my thing works. So I steer clear of their techniques and ways.

In that sense, I could see why a pro wouldn't want to spend time reading a page like Brulosophers.
 
I think some folks ascribe too much prestige and/or knowledge to the 'Pro Brewer' label. I've met some and some of them are like homebrewers with huge systems, and some seem to know even less. Just because someone has a brewery does not mean they're knowledgeable about the brewing process, and some don't care to learn anything more than they currently know.

I think of it like this - I'm really into coffee roasting. Not a professional, but have a good understanding of the process and make better coffee than many many people. I'm also on a facebook group for "home roasters" and there are a lot of more-novice people on that page who do things which don't make sense. Doesn't mean it's wrong...it's just not my thing, and I know my thing works. So I steer clear of their techniques and ways.

Remember that for a lot of industries, you come into them in kind of an "apprentice" role. You may learn "when X happens, you do Y, or the beer will suck". It doesn't particularly matter at that point whether you understand the science, as long as when X happens, you do Y, and thus the beer is good.

It doesn't matter whether we're talking about brewing or home coffee roasting. There's a certain point at which you know that you way "works". And while sometimes it satisfies intellectual curiosity for us perfectionists, there's another school of thought that says you shouldn't muck with what works if it works.

Now, if some brewer finds a way to brew beer which enhances the flavor in a positive and will simultaneously reduce ingredient cost by 40%, well then I'm sure that pro brewers will take note. But if it's marginal differences in taste perception and will require them to change their brewing process, even if it's 1-2% more efficient it might not be worthwhile to investigate.
 
Remember that for a lot of industries, you come into them in kind of an "apprentice" role. You may learn "when X happens, you do Y, or the beer will suck". It doesn't particularly matter at that point whether you understand the science, as long as when X happens, you do Y, and thus the beer is good.

It doesn't matter whether we're talking about brewing or home coffee roasting. There's a certain point at which you know that you way "works". And while sometimes it satisfies intellectual curiosity for us perfectionists, there's another school of thought that says you shouldn't muck with what works if it works.

Now, if some brewer finds a way to brew beer which enhances the flavor in a positive and will simultaneously reduce ingredient cost by 40%, well then I'm sure that pro brewers will take note. But if it's marginal differences in taste perception and will require them to change their brewing process, even if it's 1-2% more efficient it might not be worthwhile to investigate.

I get your point, but the flip side of that is if you're not improving, you're stagnating. Especially if you're part owner and head brewer.

See, there are technical aspects that, as a pro, you *need* to pay attention to. Case in point, one of the places I'm talking about pays *zero* attention to their water and the resulting mash/beer pH. The local water is very high in bicarbonates, and it's hurting their product. All of their lighter beers have a tannic astringency that's pretty off-putting. I'm not talking about 'building a water profile', I'm talking about basic brewing science that's pretty imperative to your final product. Nothing is checked, not the sparge runnings for gravity and/or pH, mash pH, wort pH. They sparge to a volume, and that's it. As a result, there is a noticeable extraction of tannins and a harshness to the hops bittering, along with a 'flatness' to the finished beer.
That's not a 'It's not broken, don't fix it' situation, especially when people have one of your beers one time then never go back. That's bad reputation and lost sales.
 
I get your point, but the flip side of that is if you're not improving, you're stagnating. Especially if you're part owner and head brewer.

See, there are technical aspects that, as a pro, you *need* to pay attention to. Case in point, one of the places I'm talking about pays *zero* attention to their water and the resulting mash/beer pH. The local water is very high in bicarbonates, and it's hurting their product. All of their lighter beers have a tannic astringency that's pretty off-putting. I'm not talking about 'building a water profile', I'm talking about basic brewing science that's pretty imperative to your final product. Nothing is checked, not the sparge runnings for gravity and/or pH, mash pH, wort pH. They sparge to a volume, and that's it. As a result, there is a noticeable extraction of tannins and a harshness to the hops bittering, along with a 'flatness' to the finished beer.
That's not a 'It's not broken, don't fix it' situation, especially when people have one of your beers one time then never go back. That's bad reputation and lost sales.

That's unfortunate, but that's what's supposed to happen--if the beer is poor, you're supposed to lose reputation and sales.

Though it's hard to believe that someone, anyone, could have a professional brewery and not understand the role water plays in the outcome. I'm not saying you're making this up, not at all, it's just amazing that one would not have delved as deeply as possible into brewing before trying to do it for real.

I was in Asheville NC last weekend. BTW, a trip I'd suggest anyone put on their list. Went to several breweries (there's something like 24 breweries there now), but one was remarkable in that I had a lager there and it was absolutely the worst, THE WORST, beer I've had in weeks. And I had probably sampled 50 or 60 beers between Asheville and Birmingham's Magic City Beer Fest.

I mean bad, terrible aftertaste, no crispness, it was just a lousy, lousy beer. It won't take but 2 or 3 more of those and there will be 23 breweries in Asheville.

If I'd owned that brewery, that batch would have been a dumper. And if it meant a dead tap until I had something I was proud of, there would have been a dead tap.
 
I mean bad, terrible aftertaste, no crispness, it was just a lousy, lousy beer. It won't take but 2 or 3 more of those and there will be 23 breweries in Asheville.

You just have to convince your taste buds it's good and you'll get used to it because it's local craft beer and not that terrible evil big out of state corporate beer stuff. ;)
 
I mean bad, terrible aftertaste, no crispness, it was just a lousy, lousy beer. It won't take but 2 or 3 more of those and there will be 23 breweries in Asheville.

You just have to convince your taste buds it's good and you'll get used to it because it's local craft beer and not that terrible evil big out of state corporate beer stuff. ;)

I had some beers in styles I generally don't care for, but I can appreciate when such a beer matches the style. I just don't care for the flavor, but that didn't mean they didn't hit the style.

Lot of sours in Asheville. I'm not a sour guy, though I might be slowly inching in that direction, but all of them were, AFAIK, well done within the style.

But man, that lager was just like bilgewater. Well, I've never had bilgewater but it's how I would imagine bilgewater tastes. :)
 
I'm thinking we may be more into this science and theory than most pro brewers. For us it's a hobby and for a lot of us thinking about brewing is something we do when we aren't able to be brewing. Lots of time for thought experiments, designing new ways to brew and questioning historic practices. For pros I'm thinking the job is a lot more about cleaning, paperwork, and figuring out how to sell their beer. The idea that all you need to do is make good product and you will be successful is why half of restaurants go under fast. Brewing professionally is running a business. Experiments and brewing science probably don't make the short list of things to do today often. I do hear about breweries buying homebrew recipes from time to time, prefer to focus on business issues like payroll and distribution over tweaking recipes to get to that perfect beer.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but read enough.

1. It's not BS. It's not gospel either. They readily admit that their results should be taken with a grain of salt.

2. Things don't scale. Period. The way I work homebrew/our pilot system is very different from a large scale system. And going bigger it scales even less. And results don't translate.

3. I'll defer to established brewing science over a blog post until said blog post reaches the same level of consistency as the established science.

4. Nice neat little bow, their experiments are homebrew scale and provide good discussion points for home brewing practice. They shouldn't be blindly trusted for homebrew but explored further. Commercial scale, I'll stick with ASBC and MBAA before Brulosophy.
 
See, there are technical aspects that, as a pro, you *need* to pay attention to.

...


That's not a 'It's not broken, don't fix it' situation, especially when people have one of your beers one time then never go back. That's bad reputation and lost sales.

Then obviously my point doesn't apply. If you have a process that works, then you don't always need to understand why it works.

The brewery you're referring to doesn't have a process that works.
 
In using discrimination tests (like the triangle test) one has to be very careful about how the test is constructed and how the data is interpreted. In a triangle test M panelists are presented triplets of beer samples of which two are the same and one is different. They are asked to determine which of the 3 is the odd beer and N is the number that are able to do so. They are then asked to report how the two beers they have before them compare with respect to some parameter of interest which depends on the reason behind the experiment. The parameter could be very broad or very specific. For example the panelist might be asked which beer the prefers (which is better in his opinion) or whether one beer contains noticeably more diacetyl that the other. Some number, m < M will report preferring (or less diacetyl) in one or the other of the beers. But a smaller number (n < N) of those who 'qualified' in the first test, i.e. were able to correctly identify the odd beer, will find one of the beers to be better (or contain less diacetyl).

The test returns a number, p(M,N,n) which is the probability that a panel whose members hadn't a clue and picked the odd beer by rolling a die (if 1 or 2 comes up choose A, if 3 or 4 choose B, if 5 or 6 choose C) and then determined preference (diacetyl) by tossing a coin) would have produce N or more qualified members out of whom n or more would have preferred one of the beers. This is the probability that more than M-1 panelists qualified and more than n-1 of the qualified picked one of the beers by random chance i.e. without any knowledge of how to taste beer or irrespective or whether one beer was better or contained more diacetyl. If this probability is low enough (typically 1%) we conclude that M,N and n were arrived at by some process other than random chance and that the fraction of preferences, n/N is a valid measure of the goodness or relative diacetyl content of the beers being tested.

Note, and this is very important. We are testing the panel AND the beer. Just as one cannot measure voltage with an uncalibrated voltmeter one cannot measure diacetly with a panel that contains members who are insensitive to diacetyl (some people just don't taste it). The panel must be calibrated for the parameter being tested. This is obviously relatively easy to do for a single specific parameter like diacetyl. One takes a beer with known diacetyl level and divides it into two parts one of which is spiked with diacetyl at some level, &#8710;, determined by the desired sensitivity of the test. A, B an C cups are prepared from these two beers and the test carried out. If a large fraction of qualifying panelists finds the spiked beer to be higher in diacetyl and p < 0.01 we are confident that this panel can perceive diacetyl differences of &#8710; or more and can use it to see if, for example, using a particular malt richer in valine than a control malt, improves a particullar beer.

Here we need to interject that is is extremely important to control what he panelist is exposed to. If, in the example of diacetyl, the valine rich malt was also darker in color so that the beer produced from it was darker in color panelists would obviously have no trouble distinguishing the beer containing it as the odd one by color and the test would be invalid. It should be pretty clear that instructing panelists to ignore color isn't going to work so that it would be necessary to mask color in some way such as serving in opaque cups with opaque lids or masking the color with Sinamar.

This is also a good place to mention that panelists should be in comfortable surroundings free from distractions and isolated from one another and that only the data processing people should know which beer is which (i.e. the servers don't). See the ASBC MOA for how to set up a triangle test.

If the question is broader "Which beer is the better beer?" we again must consider the panel. If the two samples were a lager and an ale and we tested with a panel made up of Germans we know what answer we'd get as we would if the panel were 100% Englishmen. Suppose it consisted of 10 of each who, as we are serious about this, were drawn from the quality control staffs of breweries in their respective homelands. I think we could anticipate that they all would qualify and that half would prefer lager. Thus M = 20, N=20, n= 10 and p(20,10,10) = 0.0006 Our data were certainly not arrived at by chance and therefore valid. Lager is not better than ale to a panel composed of equal number of lager preferers and ale preferers. I wouldn't dispute that finding. But they don't tell us anything useful. It would be more meaningful to compose a panel in this case of randomly drawn consumers in a particular market of interest. It is possible, in such a case, that we could obtain a ratio n/N associated with very low probability that the null hypothesis should be accepted (that's what p(M,N,n) is - the null hypothesis is that M,N and n are the results of random guesses) which ratio would show a preference for lager or ale.

That's part of what makes the fact that so many cannot pick the odd one out so interesting to me.
That relates directly to the selection of the panel which must be driven by what one is trying to measure. In the last part of the example above we assumed a panel drawn from the man on the street, presumably of beer buying age. We would expect the number of qualifying panelists to be lower than in the quality control department panel. This isn't necessarily a disaster. Assume we have a panel of 20 such, that only 8 of them qualify but that out of those 7 prefer lager. p(20,8,7) = 0.007 so we can be confident that 78% of this panel prefers lager at the better than 1% confidence level. Thus low qualification level is not a disaster in and of itself but it focuses on the panel. For a test of public acceptance we want a panel that represents the public and must live with low qualification rates but it doubtless would make sense, in this case, to increase the number of panelists. p(40,16,14) = 0.0038 and the estimated preference ratio is still the same but the variance in the estimate is smaller.

Then we get into questions of how well these 20 guys represent the general public (or whatever demographic the experimenter is interested in - presumably home brewers). The test should be repeated and the results combined.

I fully expect that most of the brickbats that are hurled at the Brulosopher experiments would derive from considerations such as these. I doubt they have ever calibrated a panel. I don't see how, with the resources at hand, they could replicate the experiments.


And that's why I'm interested in knowing the conditions under which the tasters did the triangle test. Are there conditions external to the test which are masking results, i.e., palate fatigue, just had a big onion and garlic burger, tasters have had six beers already and are three sheets to the wind, you know the list.

Those are certainly factors that one would expect to influence the qualification rate and I mentioned a couple of other things above.
 
<Snip some stuff everybody who's read this thread probably already knows>

Note, and this is very important. We are testing the panel AND the beer.

I'm a little surprised, AJ. I'm getting the sense that you didn't read the entire thread as you'd see that we've already been there and done that.

<Snip a bunch of stuff about the importance of controls. That was also addressed earlier in noting issues of alternative explanations.>

This is also a good place to mention that panelists should be in comfortable surroundings free from distractions and isolated from one another and that only the data processing people should know which beer is which (i.e. the servers don't). See the ASBC MOA for how to set up a triangle test.

Agreed. It's not completed according to the protocols though it is better than a lot of ways they could have done comparisons. Triangle test procedures were also posted earlier in the thread.

If the question is broader "Which beer is the better beer?" we again must consider the panel.

This was addressed earlier with the statements "People like what they like" as well as whether that might influence how they perceive the test beers.

That relates directly to the selection of the panel which must be driven by what one is trying to measure.

That was addressed earlier as well, in part by noting that the composition of the panels are unknown. Presumably tasters are people who are more devoted to beer than perhaps the average person, but nonetheless we do not know to what population those samples are generalizable.

Then we get into questions of how well these 20 guys represent the general public (or whatever demographic the experimenter is interested in - presumably home brewers). The test should be repeated and the results combined.

Exactly. That was addressed with the call for replication.

I fully expect that most of the brickbats that are hurled at the Brulosopher experiments would derive from considerations such as these.

I'm sure you saw that in my post, where I noted that my concerns were with post-brewing, not w/ the experimental procedures themselves which I find generally pretty well done.

I doubt they have ever calibrated a panel. I don't see how, with the resources at hand, they could replicate the experiments.

I've never seen the exbeerimental writeups note that. This is the concern I have when I ask what testers were doing, eating, drinking before the test. The problem is there are a lot of alternative explanations that could account for the results. It's possible there are detectable differences that are masked by the participants' being poorly prepared to taste the differences.
 
Guys, you do realize you're talking about a bunch of guys/girls drinking beer out of plastic cups in somebody's garage or club room, right? All the beers seemed to be brewed in a garage and/or driveway. Not a lab.

I've never met the guy(s) who do these but I don't the feel they present them as gospel or the new brew dogma.

It gets people thinking, on a home scale, what we face while we brew. A lot of these seem to follow the all too familiar, "Is my beer ruined" threads we all see. No, your beer isn't ruined. Relax. Have some fun and enjoy the hobby. Drink beer.

They are fun, thought provoking and get us, as home brewers, to rethink our process, and to relax - we're making beer!

I've said this before but I take away one thing - beer is forgiving.

I personally like what they are doing and I've played around to tweak my own process. It's up to me if I want to adopt or not based on my tastes.
 
.

Almost everything I know about brewing I have learned from enthusiastic amateurs and the vast majority of them are American and Canadian homebrewers. Professional brewers don't want to tell you nada, the just wanna keep it all up their sleeve.


I agree 100%. I've never met a pro brewery willing to give away any tricks of the trade. And this coming from a guy who used to work for a craft brewery. Which also doubled as the largest homebrew store in the state.

The owner/brewmaster would never divulge a single thing. All recipes were top secret and all processes were top secret. I had to sign a NDA when I began working.
He must have too. Because he would flat out say, "I'm not answering that." If you asked a procedure related question.
 
The same ol, same ol. Folks holding on for dear life to their brewing dogma. This is my new soap box... brewing is not a moral endeavor, its an aesthetic one. 8 fermentation temp xbmts now, 8, and by 4 different people (i think) who made the brew. Let me ask this, how many times do they need to test it, till someone should respect the information. Once is enough for me. How many times do they need a mash temp experiment, or is the real issue people just don't want to change what they think they know because they read it in a book. Now experimental Homebrew is doing some test as well. I welcome all data from all sources. The problem is most of its theoretical, they are some of the few people offering emperical. There's no reason to dog what they're doing. Even if you don't want to change your practice. I'm not diving in here, professional is a different realm, but I'm almost willing to bet the carryover is similar.

Edit, man i would love to sit down with some of you and give you three exact same beers, tell you it was a fermentation temp experiment and then listen to you pontificate.
 
The same ol, same ol. Folks holding on for dear life to their brewing dogma. This is my new soap box... brewing is not a moral endeavor, its an aesthetic one. 8 fermentation temp xbmts now, 8, and by 4 different people (i think) who made the brew. Let me ask this, how many times do they need to test it, till someone should respect the information. Once is enough for me. How many times do they need a mash temp experiment, or is the real issue people just don't want to change what they think they know because they read it in a book. Now experimental Homebrew is doing some test as well. I welcome all data from all sources. The problem is most of its theoretical, they are some of the few people offering emperical. There's no reason to dog what they're doing. Even if you don't want to change your practice. I'm not diving in here, professional is a different realm, but I'm almost willing to bet the carryover is similar.

Edit, man i would love to sit down with some of you and give you three exact same beers, tell you it was a fermentation temp experiment and then listen to you pontificate.


That last part is funny!
 
I'm getting the sense that you didn't read the entire thread as you'd see that we've already been there and done that.

<Snip a bunch of stuff...>

I ain't gonna read the entire thread either. Ain't nobody got time fo dat.

Where Brulosophy goes a little too far in my view is expecting 95% confidence before they'll declare a result statistically significant. Come on... That's overkill.
The Brulosopy team and chump tasters ain't scientists. But if you were to lower the significance expectation to perhaps just 80-85% confidence to match the scienciness of these experiments, then suddenly a lot more of their experiments indicate something *might* actually be going on with their chosen variables than their conclusions currently indicate. In other words, where they come close to "significance" and just miss it by a little, there might actually be something happening worth further exploration. THOSE then are the xbmts that should be revisited in my view... And by independent teams, yadda yadda.

Getting back on topic... I'm sure most of the pros couldn't care less about Brulosopy. Why would they. They make beer and sell it. Even if it really sucks, they sell it to the masses just fine, no problem and no need for improvement. Baa baa.
 
Brulosophy doesn't seem like they're out to improve beer but to help improve the processes for homebrewers.
 
That last part is funny!

He's done it a few times. His first time on beer Nation, I think it was, you can listen to the podcast. They were pissed in a fun way. He never reveals what is being tested, but in this case it would have been fun if he did.
 
I feel some of your positions are that we should do everything the way a professional does it and never question anything. I got into this later and never believed in much from the start. The guys at my lhbs telling me when i started, they still believe this way at at least 3 lhbs in denver, that biab is some sort of joke, or stepping stone, or iffy method made me KNOW right from the start not to believe or trust any aspect of brewing with 100% blind faith other than ideas as a basic lover of food that I hold deeply in my heart. As (i hope) we all know biab was/is an excellent brewing consideration.

So mr bigtime sitting at the bar at a taproom in one of our many average breweries, hangs out with the brewer and thinks hes hot s..t. Takes out his phone and shows me his wannabe pro rig, which is an expensive gas burner single plane 3 vessel. I have been in alot of breweries and i have never seen them using three, 15g vessels as the system. Upon first glance to me there looks to be little comparison between the equipment I see in breweries and on this forum.

Anyways we start talking beer. And it's clear right away that he thinks his system can create better beer then a pot on the stove, a hot rod in a vessel, or any other kind of thrown together system. This shows clearly how some cannot see the forest through the trees. He believes that the more expensive system you create, the better beer you make regardless. He argues that he can taste one degree in Mash temp. One degree. Then he goes on to explain the difference that would occur within that degrees. When he finds out I don't even measure anything and never have calls over the Brewer. Brewer won't side with him on Mash temp obviously, but his answer is critical to this thread. Now I am going to actually answer the topic.


Professionals and brulosophy.........


His answer is excellent. He obviously knows you dont have to measure anything and can create great beer. He said, what if you make a great beer and want to make it exactly the same way again. He continues on that, what if you want to make it exactly the same over and over. What if it wins an award and want to repeat and on and on.

This is the essence of a professional. This is the essence of production. In production, you either hit your mark or you don't. It is not a question of good or bad. You either hit your numbers or you don't. The Anheuser-Busch Brewers don't sit around questioning Mash temp, they either hit the numbers they have been given or it is ruined. Here on this website we are looking at things as good or bad. Furthermore, i believe professional Brewers are questioning and challenging everything. At least the good ones are. Imo, many of the things they have come up with, trickle down into our world to techniques we use. I listen to podcasts on my way home from work and to work and while I'm walking sometimes. Rarely, if never and I mean rarely, do these pro Brewers ever talk about process, unless it's something interesting. They are focused on what matters imo, the recipe and how it's done. They don't care how it's done, once it's great they make it over and over the same way again. They talk about putting Doritos in beer. They talk about the water they use and how they treat it. They talk about why they use so much of one grain or another as kind of a staple in their beers. They talk about tasting the grains and where they buy them. They dont waste their time wondering about fermentation temp, they feement at different temperatures, testing recipes, making the best beer they can or at least they should be, imo. Then if they find something that works they produce it the exact same way over and over again (this is the pro part). Big breweries have people that only Brew over and over and over again. They also employ people that test different beers and methods over and over and over again.
 
I ain't gonna read the entire thread either. Ain't nobody got time fo dat.

The Brulosopy team and chump tasters ain't scientists.

Wow.

So you just called james spencer, steve wilkes, mike tonsmeier, andy sparks, and denny conn chumps. As well as all the people of beer nation who have tasted his beer. And the rest of the aha forum guys and nhbc people.

Just so you know he extrapolated the data and found that bjcp judges, bmc drinkers, and non beer drinkers all score the same over time. I guess we are all chumps in your book.

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If the question is broader "Which beer is the better beer?" we again must consider the panel. If the two samples were a lager and an ale and we tested with a panel made up of Germans we know what answer we'd get as we would if the panel were 100% Englishmen. Suppose it consisted of 10 of each who, as we are serious about this, were drawn from the quality control staffs of breweries in their respective homelands. I think we could anticipate that they all would qualify and that half would prefer lager. Thus M = 20, N=20, n= 10 and p(20,10,10) = 1E-10. Our data were certainly not arrived at by chance and therefore valid. Lager is not better than ale to a panel composed of equal number of lager preferers and ale preferers.

This is the part that worries me about "which beer do you prefer" tests. I haven't read the "warm-fermented lager" exbeeriments yet, so I don't know if that was answered. But I understand that the tasting panel preferred warm to cold.

Which is fine, if you're judging this "to style". I.e. if the tasters are proficient, they should be told "both beers are a Vienna lager, I'm not telling you what variable is being measured, but you have to answer which beer is the better Vienna lager."

If you do that, and the tasters are proficient and knowledgeable about the style, their answers shouldn't depend on whether they're Germans or Englishmen. If cold-fermenting or warm-fermenting makes a better LAGER, they should be able to figure that out. If you're just asking them which beer they prefer, you are not actually addressing the variable you're trying to, because if a taster doesn't recognize that a beer style should be very clean and low in esters, they may vote for the opposite beer if they like fruity esters in their beer.
 
This is the part that worries me about "which beer do you prefer" tests. I haven't read the "warm-fermented lager" exbeeriments yet, so I don't know if that was answered. But I understand that the tasting panel preferred warm to cold.

Which is fine, if you're judging this "to style". I.e. if the tasters are proficient, they should be told "both beers are a Vienna lager, I'm not telling you what variable is being measured, but you have to answer which beer is the better Vienna lager."

If you do that, and the tasters are proficient and knowledgeable about the style, their answers shouldn't depend on whether they're Germans or Englishmen. If cold-fermenting or warm-fermenting makes a better LAGER, they should be able to figure that out. If you're just asking them which beer they prefer, you are not actually addressing the variable you're trying to, because if a taster doesn't recognize that a beer style should be very clean and low in esters, they may vote for the opposite beer if they like fruity esters in their beer.

It is important to focus on the key finding in these experiments...was the difference perceptible to the pool of typical beer drinkers that includes mainly home brewers BJCP judges. The preference data is interesting when it points at a really bad taste especially, but otherwise is just anecdotal info. In the warm lager experiment the tasters were clearly able to tell the difference. The warm lager beer might be great, but it clearly is different tasting than the traditionally produced product.. personally I prefer IPA to lager every time. Do you really care which of these lagers I prefer? Hope not...but the result that it makes a difference how you brew it stands. You can use that info however you like.
 
This is the part that worries me about "which beer do you prefer" tests. I haven't read the "warm-fermented lager" exbeeriments yet, so I don't know if that was answered. But I understand that the tasting panel preferred warm to cold.

Which is fine, if you're judging this "to style". I.e. if the tasters are proficient, they should be told "both beers are a Vienna lager, I'm not telling you what variable is being measured, but you have to answer which beer is the better Vienna lager."

If you do that, and the tasters are proficient and knowledgeable about the style, their answers shouldn't depend on whether they're Germans or Englishmen. If cold-fermenting or warm-fermenting makes a better LAGER, they should be able to figure that out. If you're just asking them which beer they prefer, you are not actually addressing the variable you're trying to, because if a taster doesn't recognize that a beer style should be very clean and low in esters, they may vote for the opposite beer if they like fruity esters in their beer.

I am not certain you understand the tests completely. The tasters i think are clearly told the style. The idea is they are given 3 beers, two are the same, one is different. Then after that they are asked other questions based on wether they get it right or not. Generally speaking the information people give after getting it right is meaningless especially if everybody on a whole showed no statistical difference. Meaning that if nobody was able to discern the beers apart then their guess was likely just chance, so whatever they have to say doesn't really matter anyways.

The idea is if you test one variable and make two beers, and you serve people one of one and two of the other and they can't tell them apart, then it's plausible to say the variable being tested didn't have an effect or at least didn't have an effect that people could perceive. Not to say that it couldn't be tested in the lab but that, the human mouth was unable to tell the difference.

It is my understanding this method of triangle testing is the gold standard in food and beverage. The game is pick the odd one out. And the people that have done these test many times are certainly getting better at doing that. Perhaps it's just time for people to realize that some things don't matter as much as common thought says.
 
In the warm lager experiment the tasters were clearly able to tell the difference.

No they werent. In 6 of the 8 tests people were not able to reach any level of statistical signifigance. And in one of the 2 that was, was by one taster, on a lager fermented at 82. Furthermore, preference in that case was for the warm one. And in the pictures i showed above, he took wlp800 and fermented it warm and gave it to all those famous people and everyone else and there was absolutely no statistical signifigance at all.


Ps, if you like ipa he just posted a whirlpool vs flameout and people could not statistically identify any difference in thise beers.
 
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