DME in the Mash, a question...

[mchrispen]

So I am planning a big barleywine, around 1.115, which exceeds my mash tun capability given the likely poor efficiency. I have been thinking about reducing the base malt and using DME to account for about 15% of the extract.

Here's the thing. I hate the taste of DME in beer, LME slightly less. I have "fresh" DME for my starters, but so hesitant to risk a 10 gallon batch with it in the boil. I could also do a second mash, but really don't want to extend my brew day so much.

To the question:

If I add the DME to the mash, say dough in at 154F for 90 minutes, will the DME convert and have less of the twangy/oxidized taste I often detect?

Assuming it would get gummy, I can add rice hulls to help compensate and mash slightly looser - say 1.75qt/lb. I don't have the final recipe - but guessing about 35-40 lbs grist. RIMS system, so will recirc. DME in an beer style that will age a long time?

What say you? Has anyone done this before?

 

[BlackGoat]

DME is already converted. It won't convert further. Also, after you "mash" it .... you'll still have to boil it along with the rest of your wort. So, this seems to be the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[mchrispen]

DME is already converted. It won't convert further. Also, after you "mash" it .... you'll still have to boil it along with the rest of your wort. So, this seems to be the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.

Colby talks about reiterated mashes to achieve high gravity - but it seems a lot of work and waste if DME would do the trick. However seems to support that mashing with (malt) extract is a valid strategy.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/reiterated-mashing-2/

I understand that DME is converted, but is it fully converted? Would alpha/beta enzymes create a "more fermentable" extract than just the pure DME in the boil? Briess and Muntons indicate differing amounts of protein and carbohydrates in their product sheets, and I recall recommendations of using enzymes (beano) to increase potential dryness.

I am guessing that any "off flavors" from the DME will follow through the mash and boil, which may force me to look at a substitute. And to be clear, not intending to bash anyone that does LME/DME based beer.

I am trying to accomplish two things:

1. Increase the gravity and fermentability of my mash extract - which could be done in the boil.
2. Avoid any off flavors often associated with DME

Maybe I split the difference here, increase my base grain bill, sparge a bit more volume, boil down and then use less DME in the boil to make the difference.

 

[BlackGoat]

ahh, gotcha - this exceeds my knowledge base, but I'm curious to hear a good answer on this as I'm planning a barleywine sometime in January and I have the same concerns about using extract. I have been considering reiterative mashing as well as using kettle carmelization to reduce the wort volume and concentrate it more. I'd like to avoid extract as much as possible, especially for a beer that I might be laying down for a few years to age.

 

[Homercidal]

I would use as little DME as required to reach desired gravity, but I would not hesitate to add it in the boil. The amount required is not likely to impact the flavor of a beer with an AG base.

But, I would also not use DME in a beer if I didn't have to, so if it were me, I'd just bite the bullet on a special beer and extend the brew day. Run two mashes.

If you have some brewing buddies nearby maybe get together and use both mash tuns for this barleywine. Then you could also collect second runnings with both and use his BK to brew up a small beer.

As far as converting the DME any further, I don't have any idea. My gut says that it's already been mashed and processed, but who knows how converted it is from the factory or if it will convert further with some rehydrating and exposure to some grain enzymes.

And 10 gallons is a LOT of barleywine! You know, for "Home Use'...

 

[IslandLizard]

If you really hate the taste of extract, avoid it like the plague. Your barleywine needs the solid malty backbone without tasting "off."

I know what you're talking about, DME is always gonna taste like DME. Just like instant coffee has a nasty twang. Plus you'd waste a lot of it if added to the mash.

Depending on how much you're short off, I would mash 2x.
If you have a second cooler you can run them at the same time or (slightly) staggered. When the first mash is done sparging, empty it out and dump the content of the 2nd one in there. You can keep your gravities up that way you intend.

 

[mchrispen]

That's a good idea... I still have my cooler mash tun sitting around. I could mash in parallel a separate base malt grist and just use the cooler's first running's to make up any gravity points, maybe even mash it slightly lower than the primary mash. Get the BK set and rolling, and sparge/gyle the remaining grist(s) for starter wort or a smaller second beer, like a mild.

I am still curious of anyone knows if DME will further convert in a mash environment and, if so, will it impact the flavor contribution. It would be such a sweet solution (pun intended), which probably means it won't work as I hoped!

10 gallons of Barleywine - who can complain? Planning to bulk age half in a corney for a year or so on some spent oak beans.

 

[mysteryshrimp]

I would try to borrow another mash tun if you want to exceed your current capability. I often have dualing mash tuns for big beers. Another thing you could do is to do a BIAB at the same time as you are mashing, then use the BIAB wort as part of your sparge water.

 

[helibrewer]

I used some DME when I ran into this situation with a Belgian Dark Strong. I added it in the boil however.

I would not do it again...the FG was not as low as it should have been but being a Dark Strong I don't think the flavor profile suffered.

Since my kettle is 20 gallons, next big beer I will do a small BIAB the day prior to brew day, augment the main beer with that, then boil down to my OG.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Yes, the amylase enzymes will further convert the long chain sugars in the DME. If your goal is to increase the fermentabiliy then you are on the right track, however I'm not sure if it will substantially reduce the off flavors. Your mileage may vary, but when I really notice "the extract twang" is in beers that are not made with RO or distilled water. (or insufficient yeast pitching). Because DME is dried wort it contains brewing salts of the region it was produced in.

Also, as was mentioned, you will have the same laughtering loss with the DME as you would with grain so you'll need to add an extra 30-40% to compensate.

 

[ajdelange]

At 15% I wouldn't expect taste problems. But have you considered other sources of fermentable sugar that you consider less offensive such as candy sugar, invert sugar, treacle, molasses...? These obviously have their own flavor components or they wouldn't be used.

I have used DME to squeeze an extra couple of °P out of a grain bill which filled my mash tun to the limit in doing a barley wine. I wouldn't say the resulting beer is as good as one made by combining two mashes but I think that is because this one was over pitched - not because of the small amount of DME.

I wouldn't expect much if any additional conversion of DME in the mashtun unless you added enzymes which can break the longer chain sugars down further than alpha and beta amylase. Given that I would add it to the kettle.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

This data sheet from Briess shows 48% maltose which amylase can break down well.

http://brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWGoldenLightDME.pdf

My book has further information on how temperature and time effect sugar content as well as some graphs.

 

[mchrispen]

All,

Thanks for the input.

Woodland, I suspected as much, but I still fear that the twangy flavor will show through. I might try a couple 1 gal batches to see if I can find my flavor threshold. Good point on the minerals, but had always assumed that it was oxidized compounds. I am also wondering if that flavor maybe masked in darker DME. Still want to avoid that taste, but I know some breweries will bump gravity in the kettle with a small DME addition, usually masked in a nuclear DIPA.

AJ, yeah, still working on the recipe. I am beginning to think I should stick with someone else's recipe the first time out. I do a lot of big Belgians, but haven't tried my hand at a traditional barley wine. Doing some research, and have a brewer friend in Sheffield UK that makes an amazing age worthy beer, might hit him up. I need to decide if I want a traditional or historic basis, which is the direction I am leaning. My fear of too much sugar here is really thinning the body. Was hoping I could control the DME/mash temperature and manipulate the body, but really just over complicating my thinking, as usual. I think I need a Xanax.

I dug out the old cooler mash tun and cleaned it today... I think this will be the best way to achieve my target gravity without an extra long boil and iterative mash. Can do both mashes in parallel, get close to my OG, and top up the boil with sparge. Maybe pull a smaller beer or starter worts from second runnings. Trying to figure out my pipeline to bulk age this for at least a year before bottling.

 

[ajdelange]

This data sheet from Briess shows 48% maltose which amylase can break down well.

Which one? Alpha amylase attacks long chain amylose and amylopectin. Beta attacks every other 1-4 bond in amylose resulting in maltose which is, in any event, fermentable so maltose isn't going to get broken down further and even if it did it wouldn't matter to fermenability. I'm no expert on enzymes certainly but I believe that is the common wisdom.

From Worthington Biochemicals enzyme manual:

alpha-Amylase catalyzes the hydrolysis of internal alpha-1,4-glucan links in polysaccharides containing 3 or more alpha-1,4-linked D-glucose units, yielding a mixture of maltose and glucose.


β-Amylase is an exoenzyme that releases successive maltose units from the nonreducing end of a polysaccharide chain by hydrolysis of α-1,4-glucan linkages. The shortest normal saccharide attacked is maltotetraose (Myrback and Neumuller 1950). Since it is unable to bypass branch linkages in branched polysaccharides such as glycogen or amylopectin, the hydrolysis is incomplete and a macromolecular limit dextrin remains.

 

[mchrispen]

The PDF Woodlands linked does show "Higher Saccharides" at 19% - I had always assumed these were unfermentables and speculated that some incremental conversion may occur in the presence of alpha or beta enzymes that might affect body contribution and perhaps flavor as well, and ultimately yeast attenuation. I can think of no way to prove this assumption empirically - I tested some DME dissolved in RO with the iodine test ala Kai's mashing experiments and it shows me the DME is converted. Not sure how accurate gradations of conversion I could read, or how to determine a minute percentage of starch that may be remaining. To your point, 1.052 wort is 1.052 wort regardless of the mash temperature that created it.

I am in way over my head and should shut up now, and refuse to stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

 

[ajdelange]

To your point, 1.052 wort is 1.052 wort regardless of the mash temperature that created it.

Yes, the specific gravities of solutions of sugars and even the soluble starches are amazingly close to those for sucrose even though the sugar/starch may have many more glucose and fructose units than sucrose. The point being that a pound of powder dissolved in a gallon of water could produce a completely fermentable or completely unfermentable wort depending on the sugar spectrum of the 'extract'. I suppose one could do forced fermentations on equal strength solutions of glucose and DME but I'm not sure that you wouldn't be measuring yeast performance as much or more than sugar characteristics there. It would be better to compare DME and pure maltose.