DIY glycol chilled plastic conical fermenters

[NatchezBrew]

Question about the chiller build. The AC unit I plan on using has the tubing to the evaporator coils low so the cut in the ice chest would need to be lower than the glycol in the cooler. Does anyone have ideas on how to seal the cut back up? Spray foam?

 

[packet]

Question about the chiller build. The AC unit I plan on using has the tubing to the evaporator coils low so the cut in the ice chest would need to be lower than the glycol in the cooler. Does anyone have ideas on how to seal the cut back up? Spray foam?

All I can really say is that caulking doesn't hold up long term. I ended up getting a second cooler and routing all the connections above the water line.

 

[tommyk]

Just curious, has anyone tried just using a chest freezer to hold the water (maybe in a bag or something) instead of an AC to cool the liquid?

 

[packet]

Just curious, has anyone tried just using a chest freezer to hold the water (maybe in a bag or something) instead of an AC to cool the liquid?

You could, but they're only 400-500 BTU vs 5000 for an A/C unit.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hey, what's the actual glycol used? I have potential to get this free possibly. Polypropylene glycol "food grade" I am told is what they are filling the heat exchanger at work with. How many gallons do I need using a 48qt cooler reservoir? I'm thinking 5 gallons will be more than sufficient. We bought two 55 gallon drums for business, and there will be tons of leftover.

Thanks!

TD

Edit- I browsed through and discovered USP polypropylene glycol. That's what I've got. Plenty of leftover since we bought two 55 gallon drums. Gonna fill a 5 gallon plastic container that they use for taking motor oil to recycle. Mine is brand new HAH, so gonna use that to fill from the drum. I suppose five gallons is plenty for use with a 48 quart cooler? I could not find the exact amount of glycol Packet used, other than a couple of gallons. I am sure if I looked it up, I could find dilution ratios and tables for freeze protection and what not, but I think the eyeball method will probably work fine too - look to see if its freezing the solution or isn't.

 

[swanronson]

I apologize in advance if this has already been listed, but Packet, do you have a full list of items used for this design? Am very interested in building 1-2 of these. Also, do you think if I were to build 2, I could use the BCS-462 and still use a single, albeit slightly larger, cooler and AC unit? Thank you and awesome, awesome build!!

 

[TrickyDick]

I apologize in advance if this has already been listed, but Packet, do you have a full list of items used for this design? Am very interested in building 1-2 of these. Also, do you think if I were to build 2, I could use the BCS-462 and still use a single, albeit slightly larger, cooler and AC unit? Thank you and awesome, awesome build!!

Have you visited www.plasticconical.com yet?
There are lists, with hyperlinks, and photos and write ups galore.
TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Hey Packet,


We're did you get your PEX tubing from, PEX supply? What kind? I don't want to buy a 100' roll, but that's the only way it comes.

Going to be getting started on my build soon. Aluminum 2" square tubing 3/16"' and plates 3/16". The cart alone, not counting casters is going to be close to $800 before I pay for the welding and cutting.
Conicals I priced at pretty close to 1k with all the modifications
The rest of the stuff probably easily another 1k probably more. I added up almost 900 for enclosure and everything else (incl PEX tools, but no other tools), except for all the electronic guts that go into the control panel.

For some reason, I cannot get the website plastic conical controller part 2 to display anything but the list of parts. Where can I learn how to wire up everything and what SSR and what not I'm going to need?
I imagine that the controller is a few hundred bucks for all the parts, so this is looking like a decent 3-4k project.
A good friend has a paint shop and can do all the panel cutting and painting for me, perhaps for just cost.
I should be able to handle all the wiring and plumbing myself.

How difficult was it to wrap the PEX tubing with insulation? Would PVC be a less expensive option or was there a particular reason for using the PEX?

Thanks

TD

 

[IslandLizard]

Most plumbing suppliers sell PEX tubing in 10' lengths, 1/2" and 3/4" in the usual 3 colors, and they are way straighter than you can get from a coil.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks for the tip on the PEX. Again though wondering if PVC wouldn't be as good and no need to spend $120 on set of PEX tools.

Turns out my storage container for the glycol only holds 3 gallons. Will that be enough to prevent freezing the in cooler/reservoir? Planning to use the same Walmart cooler as the original build.

TD

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the tip on the PEX. Again though wondering if PVC wouldn't be as good and no need to spend $120 on set of PEX tools....

PEX is a wonderful system. I "replumbed" the basement in my previous home with PEX after some hoodlums gained unlawful access and stole all my copper piping for scrap value. Yeah!

Here are a few notes on what I discovered and researched during my PEX installation:

• The brass fittings all go inside the tubing and can restrict flow rate. The passage in 1/2" PEX is quite narrow, and relatively speaking, 3/4" offers a much larger ID.
• You don't need as many elbows since the tubing bends and can be coaxed into larger radius curves and swoops. The installation looks like cat in the hat doing it that way, but most will be covered up...
• ...PEX should be protected from UV light, such as direct and indirect sunlight, fluorescent fixtures, etc. UV will break the cross links down over time, making the tube brittle up to its failure. There is a 60-90 exposure-day safe-time built into the product, but it's all cumulative from the day it was manufactured. So it needs to be hidden or encapsulated. It scares me seeing this stuff laying around in building yards or in warehouses with HMI lighting.
• It is difficult to get nice crisp straight runs, particularly from coiled stock. The stuff is flexible, and has quite a bit of memory. The straight 10' lengths are much better looking in exposed areas.
• I bought the Oetiker style crimper for $50. It will work on any common size crimp ring, but the system leaves pinchy ears sticking out everywhere. For looks and smoothness, I would prefer the round copper crimp rings. Those tools cost more, although if you only need only one arbor (3/4"?) the cost difference is not that large.
• The installation remains resilient, because of the inherent flex. It looks, and is, very strong and it is very difficult to pull tubing off the fittings once you cut or pry the crimp rings off.

CPVC's weakness are the adapters to metal IMO. They can crack fairly easy. As long as the joints are primed and glued properly, it should hold up a long time. And yes, it's cheap.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks!


It seems while PEX is sexy, I could buy all the PVC or CPVC (I don't know the difference), for the same price it would cost for just the PEX tools alone, which I would never use again.

Looking like I can build my stand from 4 pieces of 20 foot aluminum stock, plus the top plate and casters/inserts.

TD

 

[IslandLizard]

...I could buy all the PVC or CPVC (I don't know the difference)...

Looking like I can build my stand from 4 pieces of 20 foot aluminum stock, plus the top plate and casters/inserts.

TD

You better educate yourself on CPVC vs PVC
I'm not sure about cold, sub zero liquid properties of CPVC in regards to using chilled glycol. The CPVC adapters are still a weak spot.

You can always resell the tool, unless you expect to do maintenance at some point.

Is an aluminum frame going to be strong enough? There's a lot of weight resting on it. And not in the easy supportable areas. Plus it's pricey. I like the wooden IKEA stand a real lot.

 

[TrickyDick]

More questions for Packet.


What was the setup you used and sources for your CIP equipment and the process you're using?
I'm putting together a shopping list of all the parts I'm going to need.
Thanks!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Right here: http://plasticconical.com/ Haven't had time to finish the controller instructions yet, but everything else is there.

I found the answer to one of my questions... Reading through a second time, I also see the glycol to water ratio 30:70. What's the total volume you're using for the reservoir? Are you using the same 1/6 HP pump for both the CIP duty and also for the glycol circulation?

Thanks again.

Edit - also what size caster wheels did you use? I bought 5" wheels 6 1/8" overall height, so I might end up knocking a couple inches off the legs. Where have you been lately?

Edit #2- looking at your websites for this and parts, I cannot find a source for the washer sizes you're calling out. I looked at mcmaster and amazon. Are the dimensions given correct? Also, what are you using for your thermocouples? All I am seeing is thermo wells, but no part no or source on the thermo wells or rtds. Pardon any ignorance on my part, putting together shopping lists for all the varied stores is rather daunting.

Still need to find a local source for the PEX and some PEX tools. I think its probably easier to work with than PVC, and the way things are adding up its sort of a drop in the bucket to get the tools and what not.

Accidentally ordered too many XLR connectors. When I get them I'll have 9 extra pairs, and only 7 pair are needed. Be willing to offer them up at some point.

Going to be down and out for a while, but will be getting on this project full force in October.

TD

 

[packet]

I found the answer to one of my questions... Reading through a second time, I also see the glycol to water ratio 30:70. What's the total volume you're using for the reservoir? Are you using the same 1/6 HP pump for both the CIP duty and also for the glycol circulation?

Thanks again.

Been busy with a ton of other stuff and honestly forgot to check back here. Sorry for the late reply

Edit - also what size caster wheels did you use? I bought 5" wheels 6 1/8" overall height, so I might end up knocking a couple inches off the legs. Where have you been lately?

They're 4" casters, ~5" total height IIRC. Here's where I got them:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400339419085&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160

Edit #2- looking at your websites for this and parts, I cannot find a source for the washer sizes you're calling out. I looked at mcmaster and amazon. Are the dimensions given correct? Also, what are you using for your thermocouples? All I am seeing is thermo wells, but no part no or source on the thermo wells or rtds. Pardon any ignorance on my part, putting together shopping lists for all the varied stores is rather daunting.

Which washers? For the casters? I just got them from Lowes. Just use whatever works to be honest. It's not exactly critical.

Or were you talking about the ones for weldless connections? They're the same sizes used in an electric brewery. theelectricbrewery.com has links for those if you need them.

I'm using the temp probes from brewers hardware. Same place I got the thermowells from. Here's where to get the thermowells for the conicals:

http://www.brewershardware.com/Weldless-Thermowells/

Temp probes are:
http://www.brewershardware.com/BCS-Straight-Mount-Temperature-Sensors/

Still need to find a local source for the PEX and some PEX tools. I think its probably easier to work with than PVC, and the way things are adding up its sort of a drop in the bucket to get the tools and what not.

I ended up getting the PEX tubing from ebay, but lowes & HD should sell it. The crimp tool was a bit expensive, but I figured it was worth it for something that wouldn't leak. You can always resell it on ebay later anyways.

Accidentally ordered too many XLR connectors. When I get them I'll have 9 extra pairs, and only 7 pair are needed. Be willing to offer them up at some point.

Going to be down and out for a while, but will be getting on this project full force in October.

TD

Well, if you lived anywhere near Seattle, I have a ton of spare connectors and tubing you could have.

 

[packet]

More questions for Packet.


What was the setup you used and sources for your CIP equipment and the process you're using?
I'm putting together a shopping list of all the parts I'm going to need.
Thanks!

TD

It's a 1/4 horsepower submersible pump with some tubing connected to it and a tri-clover fitting on the end. I have 1.5" tubing coming out the dump valve for the return. Put the pump in a 6 gal bucket of PBW and turn it on to cycle through the conical and it's good to go. If you can find a decent deal on a 1/3 HP pump, that works too.

I also hooked up a ball valve to the output of the pump to control flow. Here's the pump I got:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X05G1A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[packet]

PEX is a wonderful system. I "replumbed" the basement in my previous home with PEX after some hoodlums gained unlawful access and stole all my copper piping for scrap value. Yeah!

Here are a few notes on what I discovered and researched during my PEX installation:

• The brass fittings all go inside the tubing and can restrict flow rate. The passage in 1/2" PEX is quite narrow, and relatively speaking, 3/4" offers a much larger ID.
• You don't need as many elbows since the tubing bends and can be coaxed into larger radius curves and swoops. The installation looks like cat in the hat doing it that way, but most will be covered up...
• ...PEX should be protected from UV light, such as direct and indirect sunlight, fluorescent fixtures, etc. UV will break the cross links down over time, making the tube brittle up to its failure. There is a 60-90 exposure-day safe-time built into the product, but it's all cumulative from the day it was manufactured. So it needs to be hidden or encapsulated. It scares me seeing this stuff laying around in building yards or in warehouses with HMI lighting.
• It is difficult to get nice crisp straight runs, particularly from coiled stock. The stuff is flexible, and has quite a bit of memory. The straight 10' lengths are much better looking in exposed areas.
• I bought the Oetiker style crimper for $50. It will work on any common size crimp ring, but the system leaves pinchy ears sticking out everywhere. For looks and smoothness, I would prefer the round copper crimp rings. Those tools cost more, although if you only need only one arbor (3/4"?) the cost difference is not that large.
• The installation remains resilient, because of the inherent flex. It looks, and is, very strong and it is very difficult to pull tubing off the fittings once you cut or pry the crimp rings off.

CPVC's weakness are the adapters to metal IMO. They can crack fairly easy. As long as the joints are primed and glued properly, it should hold up a long time. And yes, it's cheap.

1/2" PVC is more than adequate for 3 conicals BTW. With a 1/6 HP pump it's running at ~10PSI through the tubing and chills pretty quickly.

 

[packet]

Hey Packet,


We're did you get your PEX tubing from, PEX supply? What kind? I don't want to buy a 100' roll, but that's the only way it comes.

Going to be getting started on my build soon. Aluminum 2" square tubing 3/16"' and plates 3/16". The cart alone, not counting casters is going to be close to $800 before I pay for the welding and cutting.
Conicals I priced at pretty close to 1k with all the modifications
The rest of the stuff probably easily another 1k probably more. I added up almost 900 for enclosure and everything else (incl PEX tools, but no other tools), except for all the electronic guts that go into the control panel.

For some reason, I cannot get the website plastic conical controller part 2 to display anything but the list of parts. Where can I learn how to wire up everything and what SSR and what not I'm going to need?
I imagine that the controller is a few hundred bucks for all the parts, so this is looking like a decent 3-4k project.
A good friend has a paint shop and can do all the panel cutting and painting for me, perhaps for just cost.
I should be able to handle all the wiring and plumbing myself.

How difficult was it to wrap the PEX tubing with insulation? Would PVC be a less expensive option or was there a particular reason for using the PEX?

Thanks

TD

yeah, still haven't gotten around to writing up those wiring diagrams yet. I'll see when I'll have some time to start with the visio diagrams. In the mean time, there are some samples on the BCS wiki you can look through:

http://wiki.embeddedcc.com/index.php/System_Examples

Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty simple to do. Honestly, making wiring diagrams is worse than designing it in the first place.

 

[packet]

Thanks for the tip on the PEX. Again though wondering if PVC wouldn't be as good and no need to spend $120 on set of PEX tools.

Turns out my storage container for the glycol only holds 3 gallons. Will that be enough to prevent freezing the in cooler/reservoir? Planning to use the same Walmart cooler as the original build.

TD

I think I'm running 3-4 gallons of glycol at the moment in my system anyways. So, you should be fine. Leave some head space for an additional gallon if you need it.

FYI, you can check the glycol content of the mixture with a refractometer and that will let you determine your minimum temperature. Here's where I got my glycol for anyone that needs it:

http://www.revivalanimal.com/Propylene-Glycol.html

It was ~$20/gallon when I got it.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks.

Oddly, I received a email notification of a reply, but cannot find the same message here.. Anyway, the washers I was talking about were listed on the plasticonical site under the conical section. They are used on the lid outside between the lid and the hydraulic fittings it seems. Those are the washers I cannot find. Maybe I'll just bring a fitting into home depot and get what fits, or are the dimensions critical?

Getting the lid airtight looks like the biggest PITA!

For my cart, I'm making up aluminum stock 2" square tubing 3/16" thick, and making a 34x74" cart with four casters and three 22x22" squares up on the top end of the cart frame, with four corner posts/legs going to the lower rails. Going to weld in some triangular support plates to prevent bowing and the four corner posts should make strong as heck. Going to cover the whole top with either 1/4" or 3/16" plate aluminum in one sheet and cut holes to fit each conical. That'll be welded into place once it's done. Going to bend up a small backsplash on the back side of the top plate to keep any spills from getting onto the equipment below.

This is a fairly expensive project, with parts and materials alone already at 3000 at least, and I haven't even really begun!

TD

 

[packet]

No the dimensions aren't critical. the washer is just there to constrain the o-ring.

 

[fpweeks]

Sub'd

 

[parkerhd36]

How did you end up heating? I know you originally said you where going to use heat tape but havnt seen anything else about it in the build? or did I miss it? I have most of the parts on order, hoping to start building next week!

 

[TrickyDick]

How did you end up heating? I know you originally said you where going to use heat tape but havnt seen anything else about it in the build? or did I miss it? I have most of the parts on order, hoping to start building next week!

Very cool!
Glad to see another guy building this! I have my parts lists all wrapped up mostly. Hopefully get it mostly built in the next two months.
Only parts I've got so far are the ISO connectors for the glycol, and the casters. The XLR chassis connectors are in the mail.

Let me know if you find any great prices on parts somewhere other than what packet has on the website. All those SS fittings really add up. I'm thinking this is going to wind up in the 4k neighborhood when finished. I think I am going to wait on brewing any more lagers until I get this built.

TD

 

[parkerhd36]

I'm actually going at it kinda slow. Just bought enough for one conical right now.

 

[packet]

How did you end up heating? I know you originally said you where going to use heat tape but havnt seen anything else about it in the build? or did I miss it? I have most of the parts on order, hoping to start building next week!

I had stripped it out of the design due to the limitation of the number of outputs the BCS will allow you to associate to probes. There's apparently a workaround with process states that will let you emulate this functionality though. I bought the heat tape, but haven't had any time to tinker with it.

 

[TrickyDick]

Bought all the misc stuff from amazon tonight.

Heating for me is unnecessary as the system will live in my heated/cooled basement.

The other parts being ordered soon.

TD

 

[Weezy]

Anyway, the washers I was talking about were listed on the plasticonical site under the conical section. They are used on the lid outside between the lid and the hydraulic fittings it seems. Those are the washers I cannot find. Maybe I'll just bring a fitting into home depot and get what fits, or are the dimensions critical?

Can you try running a neat bead of silicone sealant around the edge of the lid?

 

[TrickyDick]

Can you try running a neat bead of silicone sealant around the edge of the lid?

Not sure. I don't have all the parts yet, not the conicals. I do have the ISO fittings that the washers are used with, so I can try to hunt those down at the HomeDepot or Lowes or ACE hardware.

I was planning to order the rest of the parts today, but didn't get the chance.

Welder can't begin until next week at the earliest because its a side project and they are slammed busy I'm told by his boss, my friend.

Anyway, going to enjoy building it.

By the way, for Packet, how have the beers been coming out? Any issues with contamination or anything?

TD

 

[FreddyMar3]

Amazing thread. I am collecting parts to build a single conical version of this. It will be in an unheated detached garage year round so heating is definitely a big issue for me. Is there any reason the water in the cooler couldn't just be heated with some sort of heating element?

Apologies if this has been addressed already.

 

[TrickyDick]

Packet, Where did you say you got the thermometers from again (that fit into the thermowells)? Any other issues with those motorized ball valves? Planning to order those today. TD

And also, those valves are huge AC/DC 9-24V ?

 

[TrickyDick]

Packet, Where did you say you got the thermometers from again (that fit into the thermowells)? Any other issues with those motorized ball valves? Planning to order those today. TD

Again those are the ACDC9-24V ball valves?

 

[JohnnyBe]

I had stripped it out of the design due to the limitation of the number of outputs the BCS will allow you to associate to probes. There's apparently a workaround with process states that will let you emulate this functionality though. I bought the heat tape, but haven't had any time to tinker with it.

If you really wanted to heat as well you could use a BCS 462 instead and then be able to heat a cool since it has 8 temperature inputs and can control 18 outputs. Another option would be to use their Digi16 expansion card along with the 460 since it will add 12 additional outputs and 4 inputs.

 

[Patirck]

I have been reading and following this thread for a while now...

I have a conical fermenter on a wooden home made stand and I'm debating if I should make a cool box with a window a/c or add the stainless coil and run glycol/water.

It will be situated next to my giant serving keezer. I only plan on one fermenter at this time.

My question is: Do you think I can get away with sticking a bucket in the serving keezer with a pond pump to cool one conical?

I plan on insulating the fermenter with neoprene like you did and I also plan on building a box around the conical stand - with some insulation.

If I go with the stainless coil, I'd rather skip the air conditioner part of this if possible.....

Thanks!

 

[FreddyMar3]

My question is: Do you think I can get away with sticking a bucket in the serving keezer with a pond pump to cool one conical?
Thanks!

I'm pretty sure I read elsewhere that air to liquid temp transfer is very inefficient and that the keezer would be too slow to keep up with the heat in the conical. I had the same idea and was convinced otherwise.

 

[TrickyDick]

I'm pretty sure I read elsewhere that air to liquid temp transfer is very inefficient and that the keezer would be too slow to keep up with the heat in the conical. I had the same idea and was convinced otherwise.

Yeah I think that is correct. However, depending upon ambient temps, and the volume of coolant used, he might be able to manage adequate temp control for ales. I think lagers, especially 10 gallons worth, would be problematic. But then there is the issue of plumbing the lines through the collar, and taking up space for serving kegs,etc.

TD

 

[fpweeks]

I tried this with an apartment size refrigerator, a pond pump and a stainless coil inside my conical. Ambient was in the mid 70's, and i had a very difficult time maintaining 67.

So the easy answer is no it won't work. Now if it was a freezer and you were recirc'ing gyclol it certainly may work.

 

[Soapebrews]

sweet

 

[swanronson]

So I am in the process of mimicking your build. I would like to double it though. Which of the components, especially in the BCS portion need to be doubled up? I have already purchased the BCS-462 to allow me temp inputs for 6 conicals, just curious about what would actually require doubling the parts. Thanks!!