Discussion on malty German beers

[MSK_Chess]

I usually just add about 6oz of acid malt

But I did make an Irish stout where pulled off 1 gallon of wort and then pitched fresh grain into it and let it sit at room temp for a couple days, then I boiled it and pitched it into the fermenting beer

It had a really nice sour twang to it and I thought it matched guineass pretty well without the nitro.

Sounds like a solid plan. Lacto has an optimal temperature of 48C I believe but perhaps its ok at cooler temps as well. It has an optimal pH of about 3.6 if my memory serves me correctly. I have an Oktoberfest in the fermenter at present, super fresh and super malty. I like using Brewtan B and ascorbic acid as my anti oxidants. Using Imperial "harvest" yeast.

 

[Home_alone1]

I’m actually glad you made this thread , trying to make my second ever malt forward beer soon a marzen rauchbier . I think I’ll do 2 mini decoctions

 

[Schlenkerla]

I usually just add about 6oz of acid malt

But I did make an Irish stout where pulled off 1 gallon of wort and then pitched fresh grain into it and let it sit at room temp for a couple days, then I boiled it and pitched it into the fermenting beer

It had a really nice sour twang to it and I thought it matched guineass pretty well without the nitro.

I checked. The Guinness clone recipe in "Clone Beers" says to use acid malt just as TheMadKing suggested.

Of course not - they use inorganic acids like any country with sane brewing laws and no fear of minerals. The default in UK breweries are either sulphuric, hydrochloric or a mix of the two (eg AMS).

That's not to say that you'll get the odd one contorting themselves with strange Germanic practices, but it's not common.

As for Guinness - Boak and Bailey have published quite a bit from primary sources on Guinness in the 20th century at Park Royal - it's not straightforward but some of the magic ingredients included both barm beer and Old Beer Storage (OBS) which was the acid stuff.

Maybe the brewery doesn't use acid malt. They just add lactic acid or a blend thing. Most Belgians blend their sours for consistency. Let's just say Germans aren't the only ones who accidentally discovered Sauer malt.

I the first time I made crystal malt in my instant pot I did a low 100F or 120F pre heat overnight then stepped it up to the normal mash of 153F in the morning, let it go for 8 hours. I was worried that it would scorch the wet grain as it warmed up, but didn't know for sure, so I took that precaution.

When I came home from work it had definitely soured a little. I cured it at 185F for a few hours to dry it out. It smelled sweet and sour as it dried. I should have called it Chinese sweet & sour crystal malt. LOL. It was still good. I used it in rauchbiers as 40L. It requires a toasting to take it from 10L to 40L.

FWIW - My 6 quart instant pot can make two pounds at a time.

 

[couchsending]

Sounds like a solid plan. Lacto has an optimal temperature of 48C I believe but perhaps its ok at cooler temps as well. It has an optimal pH of about 3.6 if my memory serves me correctly. I have an Oktoberfest in the fermenter at present, super fresh and super malty. I like using Brewtan B and ascorbic acid as my anti oxidants. Using Imperial "harvest" yeast.

All depends on what strain of lacto it is.. for many it’s closer to 95f

 

[z-bob]

Two weeks ago I brewed a sour beer and I made a lacto starter for it. I had about a cup and a half leftover, so I did a 1 gallon mini-mash with some pale malt last weekend and added the leftover starter (yes, the starter just sat around for a week in a Thermos) and held it at 100 degrees for a week. Success! I measured the pH this morning and it's 3.60. I tasted the sample and it's just sour with an odd fruity "artificial grape" flavor in the background.

I will be using some to acidify the mash for a Kentucky Common today, then draw off enough wort to top-up the gallon jug again to keep it going. I assume I don't have to worry about the trace of sulfites in the wort from dechlorinating the water?

 

[couchsending]

Two weeks ago I brewed a sour beer and I made a lacto starter for it. I had about a cup and a half leftover, so I did a 1 gallon mini-mash with some pale malt last weekend and added the leftover starter (yes, the starter just sat around for a week in a Thermos) and held it at 100 degrees for a week. Success! I measured the pH this morning and it's 3.60. I tasted the sample and it's just sour with an odd fruity "artificial grape" flavor in the background.

I will be using some to acidify the mash for a Kentucky Common today, then draw off enough wort to top-up the gallon jug again to keep it going. I assume I don't have to worry about the trace of sulfites in the wort from dechlorinating the water?

Better yet add it at the end of the boil to your next Helles or Pils to get your KO pH to around 5.

 

[z-bob]

I just thought of something; a question or three. I only brew about once a month. Do I need to hold the Sauergut at 100-ish degrees all the time? (that's what I've been doing) Do I need to feed it like sourdough starter between batches?

I used almost 2 cups of it in my last beer, then replaced it with an equal amount of the unhopped wort. That was 2 weeks ago, and it's been between 99 and 100 ever since. If I do need to feed it, will glucose work?

 

[kinginthenorth]

Better yet add it at the end of the boil to your next Helles or Pils to get your KO pH to around 5.

Can you say more about this? Having a boil pH around 5 reduces the perceived bitterness from finishing hops additions?

 

[couchsending]

Can you say more about this? Having a boil pH around 5 reduces the perceived bitterness from finishing hops additions?

I was just talking about adding it at 10 to lower the pH of the wort going into the fermenter. It’s less for bitterness reasons. Personally I don’t add many hops past 10 minutes in the boil for any European lagers.

 

[kinginthenorth]

I was just talking about adding it at 10 to lower the pH of the wort going into the fermenter. It’s less for bitterness reasons. Personally I don’t add many hops past 10 minutes in the boil for any European lagers.

Right. I’m just curious what the benefits of a lower KO pH are. Protection from unwanted microbes before yeast pitch?

 

[Bilsch]

As I understand it you are accomplishing a couple things. First is helping the yeast to lower the pH before they start to ferment thus shortening the lag time. And secondly sauergut arguably tastes better then the yeast derived biological acids and so you should get a cleaner flavor. I think there is also an improvement in the protein break at lower pH.

 

[TheMadKing]

Update on my Helles Bock treated with Sauergut

It's been kegged for 2 weeks now. At the end of the first week it tasted great! It had that fresh from the field grapenuts flavor.

Last night at the end of the second week that flavor has morphed into a sweet overtone that's honey like with a hint of banana.

That's super disappointing, but it's still a pretty good beer.

I did a closed transfer into a liquid purged keg, so I'm confident that I didn't introduce oxygen into the keg. I suspect that the lager yeast may still be slightly active and is converting some of the alcohol into an ester, but I don't really know.

It also still hasn't dropped bright yet so I'll give it more time before passing final judgement.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Spunded or force carbed?

 

[dmtaylor]

flavor has morphed into a sweet overtone that's honey like with a hint of banana.

That sounds a lot like Budweiser. Maybe ABInbev brews LODO.

 

[TheMadKing]

That sounds a lot like Budweiser. Maybe ABInbev brews LODO.

Except its 7%abv and still tastes like real beer

 

[TheMadKing]

Spunded or force carbed?

Force carbed

 

[dmtaylor]

Except its 7%abv and still tastes like real beer

Ooh, a malt liquor then. I wonder if Inbev makes a beechwood aged version.

https://faithfulreaders.com/2012/04/29/malt-liquor-a-history/

Sincere apologies for the diversion.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Force carbed

Yessir, you just experienced oxidation from still transfers and force carbing first hand. Your transfer/carb picked up roughly 2-3ppm o2.

 

[Die_Beerery]

That sounds a lot like Budweiser. Maybe ABInbev brews LODO.

They do, just like any macro brewer does.

 

[Vale71]

Yessir, you just experienced oxidation from still transfers and force carbing first hand. Your transfer/carb picked up roughly 2-3ppm o2.

Wow, didn't know that you could measure total package oxygen over the Internet nowadays. Super-cool.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Wow, didn't know that you could measure total package oxygen over the Internet nowadays. Super-cool.

It's comments like this that add zero help to the conversation, are stupid and pointless in general. Peoples bias come though quite clear with comments like this.
We did TPO tests in 2014, and they are documented as this isn't even close to my first rodeo.. We tested all general transfer methods their TPO, along with the time until staling effects are shown.

1 week flavor degradation is roughly 2-3ppm pickup.

If you have information pertaining to this, I would love to see it.

 

[Vale71]

No, I don't have information pertaining to how much O2 TheMadKing's beer has picked up in packaging and neither do you. You're just throwing out this number to appear knowledgeable while having zero idea whether the flavor degradation he is reporting is actually due to oxygen only (so much for bias) and if so how much O2 might be actually causing it. "1 week" doesn't tell you anything since you have no quantitative data to base your diagnosis on, you only know that a single taster whose sensitivity to staling compounds is unknown has detected "some change" after 1 week.

P.S. Just re-read the OP and it's actually 2 weeks not 1. Not that it makes your statement either more or less valid.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yessir, you just experienced oxidation from still transfers and force carbing first hand. Your transfer/carb picked up roughly 2-3ppm o2.

I really don't see how. The fermentor was never opened, CO2 was connected through a QD coupling in the fermentor lid, and it was pushed with CO2 from the fermentor directly into a fully liquid purged keg. CO2 pressure was always positive, so there was nowhere for oxygen to enter the system.

Also, since I can taste the grapenuts flavor I'm describing in any number of imported german beers (which are pasteurized and invariably oxidized due to handling) I don't believe for a second that oxygen degrades that particular flavor so quickly.

 

[Vale71]

What, you dare question someone who has done so many experiments back in 2014? If he says it's oxygen then oxygen it is!!

Seriously, your beer is probably still too young and will experience changes due to maturation for some time to come.

BTW I had to Google grapenuts as I didn't have the foggiest idea what it is...

 

[TheMadKing]

BTW I had to Google grapenuts as I didn't have the foggiest idea what it is...

Ha! American cereal thats grain flavored. Also, the reproductive organ of a grape.

 

[Vale71]

Ha! American cereal thats grain flavored. Also, the reproductive organ of a grape.

And you actually eat something that has the same name as a grape's johnson?? Crazy 'mericans...

 

[Miraculix]

Ha! American cereal thats grain flavored. Also, the reproductive organ of a grape.

Thanks, I also didn't know

 

[Vale71]

I did a closed transfer into a liquid purged keg, so I'm confident that I didn't introduce oxygen into the keg. I suspect that the lager yeast may still be slightly active and is converting some of the alcohol into an ester, but I don't really know.

To get back on a more serious track, when PH is <7 and you have both alcohols and fatty acids in solution these will spontaneously form esters over time in a process that is neither mediated by yeast nor by enzymes.
It's among other things one of the reasons while lagers are more stable over time than ales since ales have a higher level of alcohols (including glicerol) than lagers. Very delicate ales such as Kölsch will tend to get "fruitier" over time as ester levels increase and there is no other prominent character, be it hops or dark malts or fruity yeast such as Weizen yeast, that will succesfully mask it up to a certain point.
Out of curiosity, at what temperature did you pitch and how did you conduct fermentation post-pitch as far as temperature is concerned?

 

[Die_Beerery]

I really don't see how. The fermentor was never opened, CO2 was connected through a QD coupling in the fermentor lid, and it was pushed with CO2 from the fermentor directly into a fully liquid purged keg. CO2 pressure was always positive, so there was nowhere for oxygen to enter the system.

Also, since I can taste the grapenuts flavor I'm describing in any number of imported german beers (which are pasteurized and invariably oxidized due to handling) I don't believe for a second that oxygen degrades that particular flavor so quickly.

Believing and actual are funny things. Your believing is wrong until you have instruments that can prove it right. But you do you. What would I know with tons of lab equipment and testing. Good luck with it all. Since you folks seem to have everything nailed.

 

[TheMadKing]

Believing and actual are funny things. Your believing is wrong until you have instruments that can prove it right. But you do you. What would I know with tons of lab equipment and testing. Good luck with it all. Since you folks seem to have everything nailed.

Wow... I was legitimately asking.. no need to be a dick

 

[Vale71]

What would I know with tons of lab equipment and testing.

Which you have actually had a chance to use on the actual beer which we are actually discussing now? Who's the true believer here? You're nothing but biased and are obviously continuously just trying to push your own agenda.

 

[TheMadKing]

To get back on a more serious track, when PH is <7 and you have both alcohols and fatty acids in solution these will spontaneously form esters over time in a process that is neither mediated by yeast nor by enzymes.
It's among other things one of the reasons while lagers are more stable over time than ales since ales have a higher level of alcohols (including glicerol) than lagers. Very delicate ales such as Kölsch will tend to get "fruitier" over time as ester levels increase and there is no other prominent character, be it hops or dark malts or fruity yeast such as Weizen yeast, that will succesfully mask it up to a certain point.
Out of curiosity, at what temperature did you pitch and how did you conduct fermentation post-pitch as far as temperature is concerned?

I suspect you've nailed it here. This is a Helles Bock so at 7% it's pretty high in alcohol compared to most light lagers.

I pitched a big starter (600 billion cells) of Omega Bock yeast at 48F, oxygenated with an oxygen stone and fermented at 50F for 7 days, at which point I began to ramp the temperature 5 degrees F per day until it was at 68F for a diacetyl rest. Total time in the primary was 15 days. At which point I did the closed transfer to the keg and chilled to 35 on CO2 for forced carbonation

Edit: terminal gravity was 1.010 at the time of kegging

 

[Vale71]

A 7% beer will have "more" of everything so any changes will in genreral come forward more strongly.
Nothing wrong with how you conducted primary but I find 68F for a diacetyl rest a bit extreme, especially in a non-pressurized vessel. As a rule yeast will produce more higher alcohols the higher the temperature, the most critical phase being the growth phase i.e. right after pitch but 68F even at the end is still a bit much.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Which you have actually had a chance to use on the actual beer which we are actually discussing now? Who's the true believer here? You're nothing but biased and are obviously continuously just trying to push your own agenda.

So experimental analysis has no ability to be predictive?

Follow me here, okay? Take a pencil or other nearby solid object in your hand. Hold it out at arms length. Let go of it.
Did you do it?

OKay, so while I am not at your location and did not witness the event, I can say with a HIGH degree of certainty that the pencil or other object fell straight down to the floor at a rate very close to 32.2 feet per second squared.

Again, I'm not there and didn't witness it, but I can make the (likely very accurate) assumption of what happened based on the following:
A: personal experience, repeated to the point of reliable predictability
B: The scientific measurements and conclusions of others even smarter than me which tell me the same thing

So it is POSSIBLE that you got a different result when you dropped your pencil, but I doubt it.

Do you see the power of reliable predictability?
That exact same methodology is how (within the limitations of the information provided) Die Beerery is able to predict what happened with the beer in question.

 

[Vale71]

A more pertinent simile would be, "I have no idea what planet you're on or if you're even on the surface of a planet but I'll predict at what rate of acceleration the pencil you let go will accelerate beacause I have done lots of experiments in my living room on planet Earth. If you believe differently but have no actual measurements you are wrong and what I believe must be right without the need for actual measurement because I have done experiments".

BTW I believe "predict" is not the correct term if your "prediction" only comes post-facto. I believe "divination" would be a more appropriate term in the English language.

 

[TheMadKing]

So experimental analysis has no ability to be predictive?

I completely agree with your example, however when there is more than 1 variable present the probably of the prediction being correct drops for every new variable added.

In my situation, there are things such as:

secureness of my connections, air penetrations that I'm not thinking of, purity of the CO2, dissolved oxygen concentration before kegging, continuing chemical reactions unrelated to oxygen in the beer, etc...There's literally hundreds of variables in play here.

So if I say I have an change in flavor (which may prove to be temporary), and little else is known about the context, then making a prediction does indicate bias. He may well be correct though. I'm not discounting that. He's just a dick about it and I don't like that.

Theres a common denominator in all of these discussions becoming heated and it's not the subject matter, it's the source.

 

[TheMadKing]

Come on!!!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Note that I did say “within the limitations of the information provided”.

In essence, when asking for an analysis of a situation, the analysis is only as good as the information provided. More information (assuming it is accurate) leads to more reliable analysis.

 

[Vale71]

Just to add more fusel alcohol to the fire...

You mentioned a "honey-like note". One cause of that could be low levels of diacetyl/pentanedione. At the right level the "butterscotch" character associated with higher levels of VDKs turns into a caramelly/honey note. At which level this happens is dependent on individual sensitivity and possibly sinergistic effects with other beer components. The behavior of VDKs is peculiar in that yeast does not produce them directly but rather releases precursors that will then spontaneously turn into diacetyl/pentanedione givene enough time (temperature dependent). In practical terms what happens is that a beer that does taste diacetyl-free after some maturation suddenly takes on a buttery or honey-like character. This often happens relatively quickly when lagered beer is warmed up to serving temperature.
I don't think what you're experiencing is due to this since you matured you beer at a pretty high temperature, but since I cannot rule this possibility out any more than I can rule out oxidation due to oxygen ingress during transfer I will just list both as a possibility. If I were to claim that it MUST be oxygen (or conversely, that it MUST be due to VDKs) I'd just be exposing my personal bias for everyone to see. Since I have a very shy personality I'd rather avoid exposure of any kind...

And now a practical example of this. I'm currently enjoying a Czech Pils that I've brewed with double decoction and fermented with Wyeast's StaroPrague yeast. During lagering the beer was malty but rather neutral, shortly after I raised the temperature to serving temp a noticeable honey note popped up rather quickly, which is fortunate since I not only have a higher-than-average sensitivity to VDKs but also enjoy the character they impart to some beer style very much.

If someone were to come along and say, "Your beer is oxidized. You have this much oxygen from packaging. I know because I have tons of equipment and have run extensive tests and can predict/divine what is happening to beer all over the world" I would calmly tell them they're full of it. The reason being, my beer was simply never packaged! It's currently being served out of a Unitank where it was fermented, spunded and lagered with no transfers and hence no oxygen ingress whatsoever. Hell, I even repleced the standard silicone gaskets with EPDM gaskets as silicone will allow some oxygen to diffuse back in over time. And still my beer tastes like deliciously caramelly honey with malt and hops complementing it all nicely...

 

[Vale71]

Note that I did say “within the limitations of the information provided”.

In essence, when asking for an analysis of a situation, the analysis is only as good as the information provided. More information (assuming it is accurate) leads to more reliable analysis.

And within the limitations of the information provided (which is very little) one could at best provide a list of possible issues that might be worth discussing further. To claim to know the answer and even provide actual values without a measurement is just biased and frankly a little ridiculous. Hence my snarky comeback.

As long as we keep seeing such an attitude from some of the LODO people I think it should come as no surprise that lots of people will just stop listening to the whole LODO crowd at some point or other.