Dirt cheap RIMS heater

[augiedoggy]

Have you put it together?

I had an engine to finish building and swap this summer as I'm restoring an old corvette plus I was pretty involved in converting my camper to solar this spring so the brewing hobby have been on hold till now. But I have been pricing components and deciding on which way to build it ...
I do believe this will trim a some waiting time off of my brewday since I now have to wait to heat my sparge water up to temp until my recirculation is done.
plus I already have the extra pid which is only monitoring the output temps of my mashtun at the moment.
I think I will be building a larger "2.0" control panel soon.

 

[augiedoggy]

well I finally got around to building mine... I used 3/4" copper for the main body and 1/2" fittings at all ends. I tested it tonight with just 2 gallons of water in my mashtun which it heated from 76 to 153 (setpoint) in 35 minutes so it should have no issues just maintaining my mash temps.

My "1000w" element doesnt appear to truly be 1000w however since its only drawing 3 amps? its rated at 220v according to the numbers etched into the side and I am feeding it 240v so I would think the draw should be even higher right?

Regardless of this I am happy, I was able to use a 1/2" compression fitting wit a very small amount of teflon tape wrapped around the very top of the element... its holding up fine so far.

 

[mattd2]

well I finally got around to building mine... I used 3/4" copper for the main body and 1/2" fittings at all ends. I tested it tonight with just 2 gallons of water in my mashtun which it heated from 76 to 153 (setpoint) in 35 minutes so it should have no issues just maintaining my mash temps.

My "1000w" element doesnt appear to truly be 1000w however since its only drawing 3 amps? its rated at 220v according to the numbers etched into the side and I am feeding it 240v so I would think the draw should be even higher right?

Regardless of this I am happy, I was able to use a 1/2" compression fitting wit a very small amount of teflon tape wrapped around the very top of the element... its holding up fine so far.

I wonder if you have been duped, 220Vac is an odd voltage nowadays as I understand. Commonly it is 240Vac (220Vac is commonly used as a throwback to the old standard).
But lets accept what is written on the package - 1000W @ 220Vac gives a resistance of 48.4 ohms. You would need to be feeding a 48.4 ohm load a 145Vac for it to be drawing 3A, and be putting out 435W.
If it was 1000W @ 240Vac it would need to be supplied at only 170Vac to be drawing 3 A.

Now the interesting part - if it was actually spec'd at 750W @ 240Vac - that would be equvilant to supplying it with 230Vac (reasonably to assume this would be true) when it draws 3A (or 3.125A @ 240Vac). This would give an output power of just under 700W which allowing for some loss fits your test very closely = 2 gallons raised 77°F in 35 minutes

 

[mattd2]

I wonder if you have been duped, 220Vac is an odd voltage nowadays as I understand. Commonly it is 240Vac (220Vac is commonly used as a throwback to the old standard).
But lets accept what is written on the package - 1000W @ 220Vac gives a resistance of 48.4 ohms. You would need to be feeding a 48.4 ohm load a 145Vac for it to be drawing 3A, and be putting out 435W.
If it was 1000W @ 240Vac it would need to be supplied at only 170Vac to be drawing 3 A.

Now the interesting part - if it was actually spec'd at 750W @ 240Vac - that would be equvilant to supplying it with 230Vac (reasonably to assume this would be true) when it draws 3A (or 3.125A @ 240Vac). This would give an output power of just under 700W which allowing for some loss fits your test very closely = 2 gallons raised 77°F in 35 minutes

And what was the diameter of the 1000W cartridge heater?

 

[augiedoggy]

And what was the diameter of the 1000W cartridge heater?

just under 1/2"... about 7/16

 

[augiedoggy]

just under 1/2"... about 7/16

I now wonder if my amp/volt meter in my panel may be off when reading that low... my new 4500w element draws 18.5amps and my meter shows 240-242v tonight... less when there are other things drawing on my power in the house.
my older 4500w ulwd elements draw 17.5 and about 17.8 if I remember correctly...

 

[augiedoggy]

I now wonder if my amp/volt meter in my panel may be off when reading that low... my new 4500w element draws 18.5amps and my meter shows 240-242v tonight... less when there are other things drawing on my power in the house.
my older 4500w ulwd elements draw 17.5 and about 17.8 if I remember correctly...

I was thinking the output was closer to 800w myself... it is losing some heat by pumping through about 7ft of silicone hose and then sprinking down through my sparge arm as well so...

 

[augiedoggy]

Damnit! my edit button is gone and I keep hitting the quote button instead!

 

[Mojzis]

I have the 1000w also and I feel like mine heats faster than that. No real data to go by though. If I remember right mine draws somewhere around 6 amps.

I used the 1/2" compression, tightened the hell out of it then sealed the end with JB weld just in case.

 

[mattd2]

Damnit! my edit button is gone and I keep hitting the quote button instead!

I was thinking that's what you were doing... since I did the exact same thing in the posts before you! TX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mattd2]

I have the 1000w also and I feel like mine heats faster than that. No real data to go by though. If I remember right mine draws somewhere around 6 amps.

I used the 1/2" compression, tightened the hell out of it then sealed the end with JB weld just in case.

Is that rated at 240V or 120V?
Any chance you guys can check the resistance of the elements - that is the only thing that won't change and will determine the power at a given voltage.

 

[Mojzis]

I tried to edit, but yeah.

120v. I'll try to check it this weekend.

 

[alphaomega]

Hi guys!

Just want to offer a few thoughts on this discussion. 220V, 230V and 240V can be used pretty much the same. Here in Sweden we used to have 220V but is now 230V. Still, a lot of appliances are marked 220V and people still often refer to 220. The actual voltage fluctuates some anyway (like power draw for nearby stuff, for example you can see lights go dimmer when the water heater or something kicks in).
Also, the heating element is probably just a big wire wound resistor. While you can measure it's resistance and get a pretty good idea of it's power draw, there will also be a change in resistance with temperature (depending on the type of wire used, this can be small to pretty noticeable I think). Also, I don't think they go to any lengths during manufacturing to ensure correct resistance, they probably just wind the heater with approximately the same length of wire and then rather rate it a bit higher to err on the safe side.

All in all, the rated power for the element should be used as an indicator, not an absolute. 800W measured with a power meter on a 1000W element would not be totally surprising.

Cheers!
//mats

 

[augiedoggy]

I have the 1000w also and I feel like mine heats faster than that. No real data to go by though. If I remember right mine draws somewhere around 6 amps.

I used the 1/2" compression, tightened the hell out of it then sealed the end with JB weld just in case.

Yeah I think I got one that was mislabeled.

 

[waverz]

Just stumbled across this thread and am thinking about building a small rims tube only for the purpose of maintaining mash temps and recirculating wort.

I already have a diy temp controller I built for my 1000 watt electric smoker. It's got a standard 120v plug on it so it can be used with pretty much whatever I can plug into it. I've even used it to turn my crockpot into a sous vide cooker.

I will probably use all 3/4" stainless pipe fittings from amazon along with a small 12v dc pump.

I'm not sure if any of this it's actually necessary but I have been looking for something to tinker with and being it's low cost, it shouldn't piss off too much.

Great thread! Thanks for the ideas!

 

[waverz]

Just got done testing my proto type. It didn't leak and it maintained water temp very well.

I used all 3/4" stainless pipe fittings, a 8mm cartridge heater, some swagelock fittings, and some brass hose barbs for my build. Most of these parts I found on Amazon.

The pump I found on ebay for under $20.

It works well but is very bulky and is much too long. I'm going to order a much shorter pipe nipple to make it more compact.

I was going to make it portable but may end up mounting it under my brew stand.

 

[waverz]

Made a batch of porter today with the new RIMS tube and pump. The new equipment functioned flawlessly. The problem was with the braided hose inside the mash tun. I little ways into the mash I noticed the flow from the cooler to the pump was greatly reduced. I may have to replace the braided hose with some type of manifold or screen. I think the braided hose got clogged with particulate and that limited the flow through the tube which limited temperature control.

 

[dyqik]

Even with those tiny eBay pumps, you have to restrict the output from them to prevent "stuck sparges" in the mash tun. You need a valve between the pump and the RIMS tube so you can reduce the flow rate (don't put it after the RIMS tube, as you don't want the possibility of pressure building up there if the controller goes wrong and boils the wort).

Most importantly, you need to start the recirculation very slowly to set the grain bed to prevent sticking. You can then gradually increase it as the mash proceeds (the parts of the grain bed that would stick gradually thin as the mash converts starches to sugars and the pump moves fine material from the bottom to the top of the grain bed - by the end of a 60 min mash I can run my Topsflo pump at full speed, where I had started at maybe 10% flow rate. I'm using a 12" domed mesh false bottom). Manually vorlaufing before starting the pump can help as well. You need to tune the PID controller for the slower flow rate to prevent overshoots.

 

[waverz]

Thanks for the input. I've read about stuck sparges but have never experienced one until I tried this system.

I was thinking about adding a PWM speed controller to the pump. Sure a valve would work just as well but a speed controller sounds more fun.

I will definitely try your suggestion about starting slow and ramping up flow over the duration of the mash.

Would you recommend leaving the temperature PID in auto tune mode while making the flow adjustment?

I did some more tinkering today and build a manifold and swapped it with the braided hose. I also reworked my RIMS tube a little and shortened it quite a bit. There was no need for it to be so long and bulky.

 

[augiedoggy]

Even with those tiny eBay pumps, you have to restrict the output from them to prevent "stuck sparges" in the mash tun. You need a valve between the pump and the RIMS tube so you can reduce the flow rate (don't put it after the RIMS tube, as you don't want the possibility of pressure building up there if the controller goes wrong and boils the wort).

Most importantly, you need to start the recirculation very slowly to set the grain bed to prevent sticking. You can then gradually increase it as the mash proceeds (the parts of the grain bed that would stick gradually thin as the mash converts starches to sugars and the pump moves fine material from the bottom to the top of the grain bed - by the end of a 60 min mash I can run my Topsflo pump at full speed, where I had started at maybe 10% flow rate. I'm using a 12" domed mesh false bottom). Manually vorlaufing before starting the pump can help as well. You need to tune the PID controller for the slower flow rate to prevent overshoots.

I use those "tiny ebay pumps".... I always start them at a real slow speed with my pwm speed controllers and then slowly turn them up to full power over the course of 30 seconds or so... over 30 brew sessions with no stuck sparge. I did have 1 or two that seemed to run slower though.
I do use a finer stainless braid as a secondary filter UNDER the false bottom though...

I actually just purschased a $70 upgrade- 1" stainless rims tube with a 1" camlock on the end so I can easily remove the element for cleaning...

I also ordered a longer 15" 1000w 240v element which should be less density than my current 10" one but in hindsight I should have gotten the 24" one. since my old element only had a 3.1 amp draw which is only 744w which if I did the math right makes 75w per sq inch on my old element vs 66 on my new one as far as watt denisity...

 

[augiedoggy]

ok so I pulled my cartridge rims apart today and found a completely charred 1" area at the base which must have added some off flavors to my last couple beers which are fermenting... the rest of the element was clean (I ran pbw through it between brews.)
just bought a third element, a longer 17.5 inch long 750w element with a built in thermocouple I may try to utilize somehow.
from now on I'm pulling it apart (camlocks) and cleaning it between each brew session.

 

[dyqik]

ok so I pulled my cartridge rims apart today and found a completely charred 1" area at the base which must have added some off flavors to my last couple beers which are fermenting... the rest of the element was clean (I ran pbw through it between brews.)
just bought a third element, a longer 17.5 inch long 750w element with a built in thermocouple I may try to utilize somehow.
from now on I'm pulling it apart (camlocks) and cleaning it between each brew session.

Is this the element that was giving a lower than expected heating when you tried it? Maybe it's partially shorted internally near the base and is dumping all the heat there.

 

[augiedoggy]

Is this the element that was giving a lower than expected heating when you tried it? Maybe it's partially shorted internally near the base and is dumping all the heat there.

yes...could have been but honestly the dead space without flow likely caused it.

 

[Mojzis]

How are you guys doing with your setups?

I've made ~7 batches with mine. Last two I enclosed the end of the element (Kal style) and I think its causing an overheating issue. Tripped the breaker so I opened the box and it resolved the issue.

I haven't noticed scorching yet and the element seems to be staying clean. I've been thinking of threading the element into a cam fitting so I can take it apart after use.

 

[augiedoggy]

How are you guys doing with your setups?

I've made ~7 batches with mine. Last two I enclosed the end of the element (Kal style) and I think its causing an overheating issue. Tripped the breaker so I opened the box and it resolved the issue.

I haven't noticed scorching yet and the element seems to be staying clean. I've been thinking of threading the element into a cam fitting so I can take it apart after use.

I ended up upgrading my setup a bit...I went with a 1inch stainless rims tube with camlock for easy disassembly and cleanup and use a 25 1/2" 1000w cartridge heater now to bring the density down and prevent scorching, it works very well even with my newer less efficient stainless mash tun and more heat losses... I thought about putting the camlock fitting at the mounting end of the element but this would create more dead area outside the direct flow path and remove some of the element from the desired flow path...
all in all it still cost me under $100 for my setup (if you dont factor the cost of the 4 extra elements I bought when experimenting and trying to come up with a cheap longer alternative...
the single cartridge heater is easy to clean and I just picked up a flow switch that will kill the power to the element if the flow through it stops ($11)

 

[alphaomega]

@augiedoggy, that is a very sweet setup! Kudos!
The element, how is it sealed in the other end? Or is it one of those elements that is all stainless?

 

[augiedoggy]

@augiedoggy, that is a very sweet setup! Kudos!
The element, how is it sealed in the other end? Or is it one of those elements that is all stainless?

yes and since its 1/2" in diameter I just drilled out the little extra inside of a 1/2" compression to 1/2" NPT fitting from the hardware store... the brass ones are easiy to drill out and very little needs to be removed (the 1/2 element fits and seals perfect through the compression ring but below at the threaded area is where the drilling is needed to the element passes straight through.

I drilled out a stainless one on one of my smaller 3/8 elements but it wasnt worth the hassle or cost to do it again plus the hardware store only had brass locally (lead free of course)
BTW this is an ULWD because of the surface area vs size.... only draws 4 amps at 240v

Thanks BTW you gave me the idea...

 

[alphaomega]

Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean. That is a very useful trick for buildning all pipe (straight) counterflow chillers as well.

I wanted one that was all stainless, but couldn't find one at decent cost (you know including shipping to sweden). That is why I came up with the idea of using silicone stoppers instead.

Thanks for sharing your take on it!

 

[cowger]

How are you guys doing with your setups?

I've made ~7 batches with mine. Last two I enclosed the end of the element (Kal style) and I think its causing an overheating issue. Tripped the breaker so I opened the box and it resolved the issue.

I'm in no way implying that this is what's happening for you, but I had the exact same problem (enclosed the end and then tripped the breaker). Here's my setup:




It's just a 3d-printed box, sized to fit the end of the element, with a 3/8" hole for the cord. For the cord, I am using a heavy gauge, 3 conductor wire.



Obviously I'm only using 2 of the wires, and without thinking, I had grounded the green wire back in my control box when I wired everything up. What happened for me was that as I pushed this insulator onto the end of the element, it accidentally made contact between the green wire and one of the terminals, which then of course tripped the circuit breaker. To ensure this doesn't happen again, I disconnected the green wire at the other end and insulated it.

Maybe this helps someone down the road...

Otherwise, my RIMS setup is working great! I have a 2000W element running at 240VAC and it will bring 5 gallons from 122 to 155 (or 155 to 170) in less than 5 minutes. Very happy with the setup and no stuck sparges yet -- I have a domed false bottom in my 10 gallon round cooler and run the valve throttled about halfway closed.

 

[Mojzis]

Thanks for the pics guys. I didn't know the elements came in longer sizes, i'll keep that in mind if this ones burns out. Lower density might help if I wanted to do faster temp shifts. Right now its not usually on 100% of the time so it works. I like the use of the cams, great minds think alike.

Cowger I see what you mean. Its possible that i'm pushing the wires too close to the ground in my box which is causing the trip. Maybe I'll shorten them up a little and throw in some sort of insulator.

 

[pablosbrewing]

I disconnected the green wire at the other end and insulated it.

Cowger - did you run the ground to the RIMS tube some other way?

 

[cowger]

Cowger - did you run the ground to the RIMS tube some other way?

No, I didn't, and now that I answer that, I'm guessing I should probably figure out a way to do that for safety... hmm.....

 

[cowger]

Today I finally got around to rewiring my RIMS element in order to extend the green ground wire out to the body of the RIMS housing. While doing that, I figured that I'd pull the element out just to see how things looked inside.

Not pretty...


There is a flakey white skin over most of the element. It scrapes off pretty easily, and my next step will be to clean this thoroughly, but I'm interested in understanding what this is. Scorched wort? Since I'm running this 2000W heater at full power, I suspect that might be the case.

Perhaps I'll have to add the step of removing and cleaning the element after each brew...

Thoughts?
Bryan

 

[helterscelter]

Today I finally got around to rewiring my RIMS element in order to extend the green ground wire out to the body of the RIMS housing. While doing that, I figured that I'd pull the element out just to see how things looked inside.

Not pretty...


There is a flakey white skin over most of the element. It scrapes off pretty easily, and my next step will be to clean this thoroughly, but I'm interested in understanding what this is. Scorched wort? Since I'm running this 2000W heater at full power, I suspect that might be the case.

Perhaps I'll have to add the step of removing and cleaning the element after each brew...

Thoughts?
Bryan

Could be mineral deposits from hard water. I've changed water heater elements that looked like that before

 

[augiedoggy]

some of that might be the zinc coating that flakes off many of the non ULWD elements revealing copper or another surface underneath... my HLT element started peeling...

I'm happy to report that my cartridge heats stays completely clean and the only time I had anything stick to it was when I shut the flow off but forgot to kill the element power...I have since added a flowswitch.

 

[Mojzis]

I broke my second cartridge heater. I keep breaking off the power connectors. I had brass compression fitting that started to leak so I bought stainless. Switched them and went to put it back in the tube and broke off the connector. I'm far too clumsy for delicate parts.

 

[cowger]

Thanks, guys. Our water is very soft, and since that white stuff scrubbed off pretty effortlessly, I don't believe it could be calcium. I'll keep a close eye on it and see what happens during future brews...

 

[dirkomatic]

Dammit... After getting all the parts together for my HERMS setup ($18 hot plate + $40 stainless coil + $43 in fittings), I see this thread. Even with buying the threaded cartridge heater from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FN5XNHO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
and getting a 6" stainless nipple + a tee + elbow + 2 type F camlocks, I could have saved some money with this... Oh, well.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just an update on my cartridge heater rims setup... I recently pulled the trigger on a 36" long 1800w cartridge heater and am building a long 1" stainless pipe rims setup. I believe the longer contact time from the long ULWD element combined with the low 2gpm flow of my 24v dc pump should allow me to gently raise the temps quite a bit in one pass while still not denaturing any enzymes. I'm still waiting on a couple pipe fittings to arrive but im just lengthening my current rims setup...I does work fine but I want to be able to step mash quicker and I'm really curious if this will work better in the way that a longer plate chiller chills better than shorter chillers with more plates can...


BTW my current 24" 1000w cartridge heater is completely buildup free and clean with over 12 brews on it....hmm

 

[Mojzis]

It seems like you're going keep upgrading that thing Throw up some pics when it's all finished.

Since I broke my last element I ordered a new one that is only 500w and 10" long. The old one was 900w and 8" long and had a little film at the base. After a quick test run it appears my issue with fluctuating temps is solved. Longer element and less power keeps things consistent.

Not as impressive as 36" @ 1800w though