Did I screw something up?

[Geosomin]

My mead was mostly clear (could read large print through it) but still a bit cloudy, and since I want to bottle it this weekend I had K&C recommended to me. SO I racked it off - caught a bit of scunge, but nothing to get excited about. Added the first ingredient and it seemed to clear up to about the same as before, and last night I added the second ingredient and stirred it well, and now it's all cloudy. There is a layer of finings at the bottom, but it is way more cloudy than before - you can't even see through it. Please tell me this will settle out again in a few days. I would have left it as is if I'd know it would be so cloudy...
I'm taking it overseas as a gift next week and need to bottle it before then. Am I screwed, or do I just need to be more patient?

 

[biochemedic]

Are we to assume K&C is kieselsol and chitosan? Normally you add the kieselsol first then the chitosan a few hrs later. Done this way, it usually takes no more than 24 hrs or so to completely drop crystal clear. I've only ever had to do a second round once, and that was with a cocoa mead that was REALLY cloudy even after well over a year bulk aging.

Edit: I just realized you had a related thread going and it is indeed kieselsol and chitosan...that being said, I've never heard of something becoming more cloudy after adding these finings. Hope someone else can chime in here for you...even on that case I mentioned above, I saw *some* clearing, but still needed the second shot of SuperKleer (another brand name with K&C) to get it to go crystal...not even remotely the same situation you're describing. The only other thing I can think of is perhaps you are seeing chill haze? Did you try to cold crash the batch after adding the finings?

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

biochemedic, you said you add one then the second a few hours later? I'll admit ignorance on this one as I've never used K&C. is one for positive and one for negative? and does the time frame matter, from the OP it sounds like the "K" was added one day then the "C" the next, could that big of a gap in time between additions be causing his adverse reaction if it's not chill haze? Maybe he could try a second running of it, adding them within a few hours of each other?

 

[Clann]

Are you sure you used them in the right order. I read thet if you use them backwards you will end up with cloudy.

 

[biochemedic]

biochemedic, you said you add one then the second a few hours later? I'll admit ignorance on this one as I've never used K&C. is one for positive and one for negative? and does the time frame matter, from the OP it sounds like the "K" was added one day then the "C" the next, could that big of a gap in time between additions be causing his adverse reaction if it's not chill haze? Maybe he could try a second running of it, adding them within a few hours of each other?

One is indeed for positive and the other negative charge particles...I can never remember which is which. I don't know the exact reasoning behind the timing of additions...it's just how the instructions on the SuperKleer packet read!

I wouldn't think the timing is as much of an issue, but perhaps as suggested by Clann, using in the reverse order causes a problem? Again, this is one of those cases where I just follow the directions, and don't (yet) have a clear idea of the science behind it...

 

[biochemedic]

A quick search...

From this link:

What are Kieselsol and Chitosan clearing agents and how do clearing agents work?
After the fermentation is over, the cloudy wine contains many billions of very tiny negatively charged yeast cells. These yeast cells would take a very long time to settle out to the bottom of the carboy. Even if left for a long time, some of the microscopic yeast cells will not actually fall out. Clearing agents hasten the clearing of the wine by gathering the cells into larger clumps so that they form a solid sediment. Using clearing agents also helps to improve the flavour and aging ability of the wine.
Kieselsol, an inert silica gel that is negatively charged, is added to the wine. This builds up a strong static charge in the carboy of wine. Chitosan, a positively charged polymer, made from the de-acidified outer shells of crustaceans (Chitosan is non-allergenic) is then added to the wine. The negatively charged yeast cells and Kieselsol particles are instantly attracted to the positively charged Chitosan particles to form heavy clumps that fall rapidly to the bottom, leaving a brilliant wine. All of the yeast cells, Kieselsol and Chitosan are left behind when the wine is siphoned.​

I'm still looking for something that says more definitively what happens if you add in the reverse order....

 

[Geosomin]

Hmmm...well, I just followed the kieselsol and chitosan package instructions. It said to rack it off the sediment and then add the first of the two ingredients and stir well. Then it said 24 hours later add the second part and stir. I did that....and now it's murky. As of this morning it has cleared up a bit, but it's not even what it was when I started and it is really frustrating. This has been done in the room I have kept the mead in all along, so there is no temperature change. There is a nice layer of gunk at the bottom now, but the miraculous clarity I was told about has not happened...perhaps I must be patient? If it doesn't settle out soon I am not sure what to do...

 

[NiteBeest]

If I had to guess, if it was added in the reverse order that the negatively charged Kieselsol are trying to bond to the yeast like they're supposed too, but with the Chitosan in the mix it is bonding together in smaller clumps (therefore causing the cloudiness). Maybe a second round would clear it up. Or maybe just another shot of Chitosan.

 

[Geosomin]

The only thing i can think of is that I used too much - the package was for up to 6 gallons and I had about 3.5...I would think it would just settle out tho. There is a lot of gunk settled out in the bottom so something is happening...it's just not what I'd hoped for.
Grrr

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

are you able to rack it again and give a second treatment? or rack again and cold crash (not sure what the potential for chill haze would be now though)

 

[biochemedic]

After doing a bit more searching I finally found this on a winemaking board...

Kiesol & Chitosan in order!!
Also sent to me from Frank Renaldi who asked this to the manufacturer!

The question} why do you have to add the Kiesesol before the Chitosan? My students always ask that question. What happens if they are reversed? the insertion time is so close, I cannot see why this is critical.

The answer} Yes, there is a reason as to why the kieselsol is added prior to chitosan. If the order is reversed, there can be clearing issues with the wine. The reasoning is due to the electrical charge of the fining agents as well as compounds that exist in the wine. Kieselsol, an inert silica gel that is negatively charged, is added to the wine. This builds up a strong static charge due to the dead and living yeast cells also having a negative charge in the carboy of wine. Chitosan, a positively charged polymer, is then added to the wine. The negatively charged yeast cells and Kieselsol particles are instantly attracted to the positively charged Chitosan particles to form heavy clumps that fall rapidly to the bottom, leaving a clear wine. If the order is reversed the chitosan will not function nearly as effectively at attracting negatively charged particles, meaning that you could end up with hazy wines. ​

So to Geosomin, I'm sorry, but I think you may have accidentally reversed the order. There is hope, but perhaps not in your desired timeframe...see also this reply (from post #4 in the above linked thread):

I have accidentally reversed the K & C before. The wine did eventually clear, but it wasn't a pretty process. Thanks Wade for this valueable info (and for stickying it)! ​

 

[Geosomin]

Well...it turns out it is settling out over time. Nearly back to what it was before I think I will leave it be and give it another few days. From what I read I just expected it to clear in 24-48 hours...perhaps it was too optimistic. I plan on bottling sun or monday, so I am hoping it will be OK by then...

 

[biochemedic]

Well...it turns out it is settling out over time. Nearly back to what it was before I think I will leave it be and give it another few days. From what I read I just expected it to clear in 24-48 hours...perhaps it was too optimistic. I plan on bottling sun or monday, so I am hoping it will be OK by then...

Glad to hear it seems to be getting back into shape...it definitely should have cleared in 24 hrs given the description you gave of it's appearance before the finings. Give it as long as you can before bottling, and if you end up with some sediment in the bottles, Oh, well....it will still taste the same. As Charlie Papazian wrote, if you don't like the appearance of hazy beer (or mead) you can always drink it from a colored glass!

 

[Geosomin]

Happy to report that when I racked it off the finings to bottle it looks quite nice. It's all bottled up now. Hooray.
Now just to ignore it for a year or so!