Did I pitch enough yeast for 1.062 Saison?

[Wes440]

My first all-grain brew, pretty simple Saison recipe that measured at 1.062 OG instead of the estimated 1.056.

I pitched only one vial of White Labs Saison 'WLP 565' and today is day 8 in primary and there is very little CO2 blowoff from 3 pc bubble cap. I had a larger blowoff tube into a bucket of star San for the first 5 days, which was pretty active. Now there is almost no trub on top of the beer, but a good cake has formed on bottom.

Do you think there was enough yeast?
Should I just leave on the cake longer to ensure optimal results? I was thinking of bottling after 3 weeks in primary, which is a 6 gallon glass carboy.

I also shook the fermenter like crazy after pitching, wort was well oxygenated I believe...

Thanks for any input!

Wes

 

[mmb]

That yeast is known for stalling out, enough so that there is a note on the White Lab's webpage for the yeast. I'd let it sit for at least the three weeks you've planned and possibly longer.

You can always check the Specific Gravity of the beer with a sanitized wine thief and see where it is at but I'd just let it sit. What temp did/do you have it at for fermentation?

 

[peterj]

One tube was definitely an underpitch. Next time I would use a yeast calculator and make an appropriately sized starter. Or use dry yeast.

That being said, it sounds like your fermentation still went just fine. The yeast were probably just a little more stressed than they should have been. After 8 days it is very normal for the krausen to be subsiding and CO2 production to be low. The initial vigorous fermentation should only last around 3-5 days or so. I would wait another week (or 2 if you want) for the yeast and other particles to settle out, then you should be fine to bottle as long as your gravity is not still dropping.

And then enjoy your beer!!

 

[peterj]

I didn't really pay attention to your specific strain, but mmb is right. I've heard that yeast is pretty finicky. I would definitely take gravity readings and try to heat it up into the 90s F to help it finish. Right now your fermentation sounds normal, but the only way to know if it's stalled is to take a hydrometer reading.

 

[kh54s10]

Did you pitch enough yeast - no. That is assuming a 5 gallon batch. Even at 1.056 a vial is usually not an ideal amount. A very fresh vial contains 100 billion cells and mrmalty.com suggests 205 billion.

I make a starter every time I use liquid yeast.

It will ferment OK and you will probably get a good beer. Pitching enough yeast will make good beers better.

http://www.mrmalty.com/
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
http://www.yeastcalc.co/homebrew-calculators

The only way to be sure that the yeast did it's job is to measure for final gravity. As to the length of time on the yeast. A few days after reaching final gravity is enough, I always go 2 full weeks and most often 3 weeks. I have never tried to bottle at the minimum time which would be just after confirming final gravity.

Longer fermentation (within reason) is almost always better than cutting it short.

 

[Wes440]

The temperature is at an average of 72-75, my closet is my designated fermentation area. There is no ventilation, so I make sure to open the door to let in cool air. Right now it stays around 70-72 throughout my apt.

I have read that the higher the temp, this yeast produces more esthers = fruity and spicy flavors.

Yes this is a 5 gallon batch, brewed with a 10 gallon "Bayou Classic" that I use for both a MLT and BK. My electric range actually gets ~8 gallons up to boiling in roughly 1 hour. I was worried that it may not be able to do the job...

Anyways I really didn't expect to hit a higher gravity and just ended up pitching what I had - all stores were closed anyway...

The more I read here, the more I believe that I'll probably be making a yeast starter for future batches, especially with the cost of liquid yeast.

On that note 1 more question:

I'm planning an IPA to cook next week that has a OG of ~ 1.064. I'm thinking of using Safale us-05, a dry yeast that I've been reading about. Opinions on that yeast? Should I make a starter/ is that necessary with dry? Or maybe just rehydrate and pitch 2 packs...?

Thanks for all the great input!

Wes

 

[kh54s10]

Check the calculators. Mrmalty says about 1.1 packs. Do not make starters with dry yeast. It is unnecessary. I do recommend rehydrating the dry yeast. Us-05 is a good yeast for an American IPA.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Just a personal experience, and it looks like you won't be doing this, but just in case: heating it up to 90 degrees to finish is dangerous. I had a saison that I used WLP565 in and heated it to that temp and only held it for a few days and it created horrendous fusel alcohol (jet fuel, seriously). It was not at the beginning of fermentation, actually about 2 weeks in. It tasted great before that, just still a little sweet. I would let it ride at 72 or a little warmer to finish, and check the gravity. It should finish out eventually, perhaps in 4-5 weeks total. I have used that yeast a few times since and was able to bottle after 4 weeks primary fermented at 72ish.

 

[Wes440]

Good to know - yeah I've heard that I should get the temperature up as high as 85-90; this came direct from a guy at my LHBS... I was a little skeptical about those temps, as even the vial states a max temp at 75. For this Saison, I think I will check gravity at 2 weeks just to see where I'm at (I just ordered a nice $20 refractometer from ebay), but I think a good 4-5 weeks may be the smart way to go for this Belgian Saison to fully flesh out with all of those nice Belgian yeasty flavors!

On the dry yeast, it just seems to be the easiest/best way to go as far as preparation and cost are concerned (for those beers that will use American ale yeast at least...) So perfect for this upcoming IPA, which is pretty simple as well - about 5 ounces of Centennial - as well as some for dry hopping. I think I'll be racking to a secondary for that beer though.

Here's an updated photo of the Saison in primary (Day 8)

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

Wes

 

[peterj]

Good to know - yeah I've heard that I should get the temperature up as high as 85-90; this came direct from a guy at my LHBS... I was a little skeptical about those temps, as even the vial states a max temp at 75. For this Saison, I think I will check gravity at 2 weeks just to see where I'm at (I just ordered a nice $20 refractometer from ebay), but I think a good 4-5 weeks may be the smart way to go for this Belgian Saison to fully flesh out with all of those nice Belgian yeasty flavors!

On the dry yeast, it just seems to be the easiest/best way to go as far as preparation and cost are concerned (for those beers that will use American ale yeast at least...) So perfect for this upcoming IPA, which is pretty simple as well - about 5 ounces of Centennial - as well as some for dry hopping. I think I'll be racking to a secondary for that beer though.

Here's an updated photo of the Saison in primary (Day 8)

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

Wes

Just so you know, refractometers will not give accurate gravity readings after fermentation has begun. The alcohol present skews the reading. You can use an online calculator (http://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/) to convert the reading, but just know that it still won't be quite as accurate as a hydrometer.

Also, it's a very common and generally accepted practice to push saison yeasts up into the 80s and even 90s F during fermentation. In fact on the Wyeast website it says, "Warm fermentation temperatures, at least 90°F (32°C), or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation." for 3724 which is supposed to be the same strain as WLP565. I've never heard of a saison yeast creating fusels at high temperatures, especially long after the initial part of fermentation. But, I guess I've never actually used 565 specifically so maybe it's different.

As far as dry yeast goes, I do find it easier to work with than liquid. You don't have to make a starter because there is about twice as much yeast in a packet, it's not critical to keep it refrigerated (though you should), it stays viable for far longer, you don't really have to worry about aeration as much, and it costs less. The only drawback is that there isn't as much strain variety in dry yeast. Though they seem to be coming out with more strains these days. I have found Danstar Belle Saison to be a fantastic dry saison yeast. I'd highly recommend it.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Ive only ever heard bad things about belle saison.

 

[peterj]

Ive only ever heard bad things about belle saison.

Oh really? I've never really heard anything bad about it. Here's a long thread about it that I'm subscribed to that has mostly positive reviews: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/new-danstar-belle-saison-dry-yeast-359806/.

I've used it a few times and been very happy with the results. It works at high and low temps, doesn't stall out like some saison yeasts, finishes pretty quickly, attenuates like crazy (my FGs have been in the 1.000-1.003 range), and it has a really good classic sasion flavor profile.

What have you heard?

 

[Wes440]

Interesting, I'll have try that dry Saison yeast - thinking of making another before Fall, but with some added ingredients like orange rind and possibly peppercorn/herbs.

I was very close to using the Wyeast French Saison 3711 strain, but went with WLP565 instead. I suppose it's good to try them all eventually...

I invested in Beersmith and I'm quite happy with all of the tools it provides. I was looking at the refractometer tool last night, and it seems to offer some adjustments for fermenting wort, so long as you have an accurate OG reading from a hydrometer.

Wes

 

[peterj]

Interesting, I'll have try that dry Saison yeast - thinking of making another before Fall, but with some added ingredients like orange rind and possibly peppercorn/herbs.

I was very close to using the Wyeast French Saison 3711 strain, but went with WLP565 instead. I suppose it's good to try them all eventually...

I invested in Beersmith and I'm quite happy with all of the tools it provides. I was looking at the refractometer tool last night, and it seems to offer some adjustments for fermenting wort, so long as you have an accurate OG reading from a hydrometer.

Wes

Yeah trying a variety of yeasts is a great idea!

And as long as you correct the reading you should be just fine. There are just always tons of stuck fermentation threads that actually turn out to be people using a refractometer without a correction calculator.

Good luck with your brews!

 

[Inkleg]

Oh really? I've never really heard anything bad about it. Here's a long thread about it that I'm subscribed to that has mostly positive reviews: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/new-danstar-belle-saison-dry-yeast-359806/.

I've used it a few times and been very happy with the results. It works at high and low temps, doesn't stall out like some saison yeasts, finishes pretty quickly, attenuates like crazy (my FGs have been in the 1.000-1.003 range), and it has a really good classic sasion flavor profile.

What have you heard?

+1, I agree with all of this about Belle Saison.

Plus I guess the judges at the Suwannee Beer Festival haven't heard bad things about it either. That yeast took first with a score of 43.