Did I oxidize my RIS?

[Invertalon]

Quick question…

Last night I was racking my 12% RIS into the keg from the primary for extended aging… Now, I ferment in plastic buckets with a spigot installed to eliminate the need for a racking cane and make transfers very easy. Once I had the keg all prepared I opened the spigot with tubing attached and began the transfer. Near the end though, I heard the dreaded “air sucking” noise as the beer level got low in the primary bucket. This caused bubbles to rise in the keg to the surface and start making me paranoid about oxidation…

However, my question is… The bucket was under positive pressure when I started transfer… So in theory, it should have been filled with CO2. I know as the level went down more and more oxygen would start to “mix” in the larger headspace the more I transfer. But do you think near the very end when I did get a little suction/aeration that it was predominately CO2 and not much O2? For reference, I probably had around 6-8” of headspace in the bucket to begin with (filled with CO2).

The keg was also purged with CO2 prior to racking and of course, purged the headspace a few times with CO2 before putting the keg away for storage.

What do you all think? Completely overblown in my mind? Being my biggest beer I have ever brewed (and expensive with the bourbon, vanilla beans, etc…), the last thing I want is an oxidized batch! So just looking for peace of mind…. lol

 

[DrWill]

My suspicion, and it's only that, is that any off flavour contribution from such a small bit of oxygen exposure will be minimal in so big a beer. I suspect it will be just fine.

 

[Boleslaus]

I think you'll be fine. That happens a little bit almost every time I fill a keg...and especially with a RIS you won't even notice.

 

[HopHeavy]

While there is no guarantee of the composition of the airspace above the beer once you move your primary around, I would feel pretty comfortable in thinking CO2 went into the transfer line. If it wasn't CO2 on top of the beer, it would be oxidizing the whole time you were racking, right?

 

[Invertalon]

Thanks everyone! It puts me at ease a bit.

I have also had this occur before, but it was with an IPA or something that would have been chilled/served quickly and not aged for months. So I had less worry. With this being aged for 4-5 months at 60-65F before I even tap it, it just had me a bit paranoid!

 

[jddevinn]

I'll say yes it was oxidized (but most homebrew is) but it'll taste fine.

How did you purge the keg? If you saw bubbles rising in the keg I assume the lid was off and you weren't doing a closed transfer?

 

[Invertalon]

It was not a closed transfer. Thinking about it now, I could probably connect a CO2 line up to the airlock and do a closed transfer (or just keep a better eye on the beer level to make sure it doesn't go below that level.

I purged the keg by putting the lid on and gassing it a few times, releasing the pressure each time. Once complete, took the keg where I was transferring, opened the lid and racked into the bottom of the keg. Once done, put the lid on and seated it with CO2. Then purged the headspace 5-6 times or so with CO2 to ensure most of the O2 was out of it.

Have not had any oxidized beer yet (knock on wood) that I could detect, even with racking issues or bubbling in the bottle and/or keg. Again, the worry with this one was the long conditioning I would be doing. We shall see I suppose come October or whatever!

 

[thedon986]

I have never transferred into kegs under pressure or by first purging the keg. I do use a long hose from my racking cane that reaches the bottom of the keg. I have never tastes the off flavors from oxidation and I am very sensitive to off flavors in my beers and I had quite a few of them when I started brewing years ago. I have also filled growlers, and even mason jars, and let them age in the fridge for months and sometimes almost a year and have never had an oxidized off flavor. Nothing to worry about, IMO.

 

[jddevinn]

Give this thread a read.... Purging with pressure releases is ineffective at lowering the O2 concentration to acceptable levels without 30+ purges.

If you don't transfer into a closed system especially without even attempting to purge the keg you are 100% above the recommended O2 concentration and oxidized, whether you can taste the off flavors or not.

 

[thedon986]

I've read many of those threads and also many of the HSA threads but have not seen evidence of it in my own experience. Until I or one of the many people who drink the beer I brew do, I am going to continue the method I have used for the last 5 years. I also have hot side aerated my wort. I just don't believe it is enough to worry about.

 

[jddevinn]

I've read many of those threads and also many of the HSA threads but have not seen evidence of it in my own experience. Until I or one of the many people who drink the beer I brew do, I am going to continue the method I have used for the last 5 years. I also have hot side aerated my wort. I just don't believe it is enough to worry about.

Don if you don't taste it you don't taste it; however I don't think your anecdotal evidence and taste buds trump:

W. Kunze. Technology Brewing and Malting.

Briggs, Boulton, Brookes and Stevens.Brewing Science and Practice

H. Esslinger. Handbook of Brewing: Processes, Technology, Markets

G. Fix. Principles of Brewing Science: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues

and others....

From Brewing Science and Practice (since I have that at work)

Preventing air from getting into the beer is essential. All the precautions followed in producing bright beer must be maintained....dissolved oxygen in the beer will be <0.2mg/l, in some cases, <0.1mg/l, so during filling operations the pick-up of oxygen must not exceed 0.02-0.03mg/l. If this oxygen level is not achieved serious flavor deterioration will result. Control of oxygen is therefore the major feature of good packaging.

Roughly 1 ml of air in a 300ml bottle will give an oxygen content of 1ppm[converting and expanding to batch size, this is equivalent to ~4 cubic inches of air for a 5 gallon batch], which is enough to oxidize all the reductones present in a light lager beer. the dissolved oxygen in the beer rapidly disappears, usually without the immediate formation of an off-flavour, but the damage has been done as the beer contains compounds such as melanoidins and reductones, which act as oxygen carriers and produce off-flavours at a later date.

Also shown in these sources are the autoxidation and oxidation chemical reactions.... this **** ain't made up it is chemistry that is understood by major breweries and available for you to learn.

 

[ncbrewer]

Don if you don't taste it you don't taste it; however I don't think your anecdotal evidence and taste buds trump:

Good info. I never really had a good appreciation of oxidation until I read the thread "Interesting German Brewing PDF" https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580532 Your info is in sync with that.

 

[thedon986]

Don if you don't taste it you don't taste it; however I don't think your anecdotal evidence and taste buds trump

Nowhere did I say that oxidation does not exist. I don't believe it is of much concern unless someone goes out of their way to oxidize beer above normal transferring between vessels. Your first post in this thread basically agrees that while it may have been oxidized it will taste fine. I had never even heard of oxidation until years into brewing damn tasty beers.

 

[jddevinn]

Nowhere did I say that oxidation does not exist. I don't believe it is of much concern unless someone goes out of their way to oxidize beer above normal transferring between vessels. Your first post in this thread basically agrees that while it may have been oxidized it will taste fine. I had never even heard of oxidation until years into brewing damn tasty beers.

Fine does not /= good /= great. Lots of people make "fine" beer.

You're saying to your taste it is not a concern, published data says it is a concern.

Published data gives specific values to target, explains how easy it is to oxidize at multiple brewing steps and ways to prevent oxidation. You're saying to ignore this with I don't believe it is of much concern unless someone goes out of their way to oxidize beer above normal transferring between vessels.

Whether you "believe" physics, chemistry and text accepted as industry standard or not it not an open transfer into a non purged container will produce an oxidized end product beyond the established target concentration. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ If you choose to "believe" things that are contradicted by all published data then I hope that anyone you give advice to realizes and accepts that as a disclaimer.

 

[ronbo1]

I rack using a racking cane and undoubtedly introduce oxygen into the system. I've brewed nearly 500 beers over 24 years and have never tasted oxidation in any of my beers, nor has it been detected in over 50 beers sent to competitions (with 30+ medals won). Also, as a competition judge for 10 years, I have very rarely detected oxidation in other brewers beers except for the rare occurrence in aged beers, where small amounts (sherry-like character) are part of the flavor profile. As far as published data goes, it was written for professional brewers, who are concerned with things like shelf life and profitability. As homebrewers, we brew beer to drink and to share and if you're drinking your beer in a timely manner, no need to worry about shelf life. Professional brewers do many things that we homebrewers can't and don't do...

This doesn't mean we should be careless about introducing oxygen into our beer in the various stages of brewing, fermenting and packaging, but it is first and foremost a hobby and it is for each of us to decide how complex we want to make it. I for one lean more towards the "art" side of brewing, and only worry about the things that can be detected as off-flavors in my beer, so a little 'splashing' is not a concern...so far...

 

[thedon986]

Fine does not /= good /= great. Lots of people make "fine" beer.

You're saying to your taste it is not a concern, published data says it is a concern.

Published data gives specific values to target, explains how easy it is to oxidize at multiple brewing steps and ways to prevent oxidation. You're saying to ignore this with I don't believe it is of much concern unless someone goes out of their way to oxidize beer above normal transferring between vessels.

Whether you "believe" physics, chemistry and text accepted as industry standard or not it not an open transfer into a non purged container will produce an oxidized end product beyond the established target concentration. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ If you choose to "believe" things that are contradicted by all published data then I hope that anyone you give advice to realizes and accepts that as a disclaimer.

So telling him his beer will taste only fine and because fine does not equal great (science) must mean you know it will not taste great. Do you offer your psychic beer quality services to breweries and homebrewers? Answering his beer would taste fine in the context of his question would mean that he would not taste flavors from oxidation. Do the condescending shoulder shrug all you want, I ended my post with IMO. Continue beating your horse though, he is nearly dead.

 

[jddevinn]

Don, I do not mean to be condescending. I think every post should be written for both the OP and for anyone that reads the thread in the future (I've sure scrubbed the archives here)

With the Invertalon's transfer method they should not have picked up much more oxygen than they normally do and they are already passed the oxidation recommendations. Being a kegged 5 gallon RIS, oxidation off flavors are going to be masked to begin with and it will likely be drunk before aging too long (assuming that with 5 gallon kegged batches Inv goes through them quickly.) I DO THINK that we should answer the question to the best of our technical knowledge.

Oxidation control is not just a process adjustment but also requires additional equipment; I understand it is not for everyone in this hobby to go to that extreme. However, the answer is yes the beer is oxidized (compared to accepted published standards of dissolved oxygen level). Answering the question as a "no it is not oxidized" is wrong and does a disfavor to Invertalon and future readers of the thread.

Again, do not take offense but your advice on racking into unpurged kegs and not worrying about oxidation is 100% wrong. If you have kegs then you have the equipment to purge at no additional cost. Not purging is akin to having a temp controlled fermentation fridge but fermenting at ambient temps and only using temperature control to cold crash because you are too lazy to set the temp and don't "feel" like fermentation temperature make a difference in the final product.

Ronbo, yes it is a hobby and people do different amounts of complex. That does not change the answer, yes it is oxidized with this transfer method. You can choose not to care, but it is ignorant to state that because you don't care it is not oxidized. Just because you do not care about shelf life does not mean the other readers of this forum do not. With 10 taps I have had several batches on tap for 6+ months with the average being over 3 months. Honestly a lot of craft beer is oxidized, just because the beer scores well in a competition does not mean that it was produced with best practices or is stable.

The "art" side of brewing is recipe formation. The process side is 100% science and is understood (and published) to a very large degree.

For my anecdotal evidence.... the "house" IPA I make is Kal's "Electric IPA". The recipe has not varied since I built my first iteration (a Kal copy) 2 years ago, however with changes in water chemistry, fermentation, oxygen control, packaging, carbonation, ect. the current product is very different from the original in color, taste, smell, clarity, repeatability and stability.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Nerd...

 

[jddevinn]

Nerd..

Nerds

 

[IkeKrizzule]

There's science, and there's tasteable difference and even within your quoted study is a line stating you might not taste it now but you will at a "later date". What is a later date? How noticeable is this difference at .02 mg/l compared to .2 mg/l? I'm not necessarily disagreeing and will try to reduce oxygen as I can, but some vague quote from a study noes not science make to me.

 

[jddevinn]

There's science, and there's tasteable difference and even within your quoted study is a line stating you might not taste it now but you will at a "later date". What is a later date? How noticeable is this difference at .02 mg/l compared to .2 mg/l? I'm not necessarily disagreeing and will try to reduce oxygen as I can, but some vague quote from a study noes not science make to me.

Ike, note that my references are not vague studies but textbooks recognized to be industry standards. I quoted an overview paragraph when there are multiple chapters on the subject. In the referenced section .02ppm is the allowable uptake during packaging while .2ppm is total.

Both of these are good reading and expand on this topic and many others.

https://www.siebelinstitute.com/products/bookstore/technology-brewing-and-malting/

https://www.crcpress.com/Brewing-Sc...-Boulton-Brookes-Stevens/p/book/9780849325472

 

[Yeastieboy]

One time in my early days of brewing I used a refractometer to measure gravity of a fermented beer. Of course, it appeared as though fermentation was incomplete. I panicked, added yeast, and aerated the heck out of he beer, letting it sit another week. In reality, fermentation was complete to begin with. Point is, the beer tasted fine to me and my non-professional brewing friends. Is was consumed within a few months and may not have faired to well once aged. I think it must take a lot of oxygen introduction to "ruin" a beer. It makes me giggle a little when I read about concerned folks who had a few bubbles in their racking cane. I always try to reassure them; if my beer tasted OK after deliberate oxygenation, yours will likely be just fine.