Did I dry out my malty beer?

[Michael311]

I think I know the answer but just wanted confirmation. At the last minute I added 1 lb of corn sugar to the recipe below to up the ABV and because the corn sugar was sitting around. Now I think I defeated the purpose of this malty beer by drying it out. Thoughts?

All-Grain - Raging Red Irish Red Ale
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP001
Yeast Starter: 1liter
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.059
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU: 29
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 16
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14
Tasting Notes: malty aroma and BIG malt flavor. Enough hops to just balance it out.

I entered this in the 2011 Peach State Brew Off taking 1st place. Thhis has a DEEEEEP red color and is big on the malt flavor. Enjoy

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 15.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
————
Amount Item
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Caraaroma (130.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Carafoam (2.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Crystal [3.50 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop)
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (30 min)
1.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) (add at flame out)
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001)

 

[flars]

You are right. You already know the answer. Sugar will boost the ABV and give it a dry finish. The sugar addition will also throw off the malt and hop balance.
Not all is lost though. It will not destroy the beer like an infection can.

 

[Clarke]

What temp did you mash at?

 

[Michael311]

155


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[Michael311]

What temp did you mash at?

155


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[VikingChrisColby]

Adding sugar doesn't subtract malt. If you swap some sugar for part of the malt, you will dry the beer out. But if you simply add sugar on top of the malts, you'll just boost the ABV a bit. The malt flavor (which comes from the husks of the grains) will not be lowered; neither will the final gravity (FG).


Chris Colby
Editor
http://beerandwinejournal.com/

 

[Michael311]

Adding sugar doesn't subtract malt. If you swap some sugar for part of the malt, you will dry the beer out. But if you simply add sugar on top of the malts, you'll just boost the ABV a bit. The malt flavor (which comes from the husks of the grains) will not be lowered; neither will the final gravity (FG).





Chris Colby

Editor

http://beerandwinejournal.com/

I like your answer, thanks!
I did notice the FG didn't change when I made the adjustment (adding corn sugar) in Beersmith.


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[Clarke]

Adding sugar doesn't subtract malt. If you swap some sugar for part of the malt, you will dry the beer out. But if you simply add sugar on top of the malts, you'll just boost the ABV a bit. The malt flavor (which comes from the husks of the grains) will not be lowered; neither will the final gravity (FG).


Chris Colby
Editor
http://beerandwinejournal.com/

I can understand that adding sugar does not subtract malt but wouldn't adding the sugar increase the sweetness if you don't increase your hop addition to match? Corn sugar is 100% fermentable but yeast will only attenuate an average of 75% so you would have and extra 25% more sweetness to the beer?

As far as dryness goes, I don't think adding sugar would increase dryness because the malt is still in "balance" with the original recipe, it should only increase alcohol and added sweetness if no extra hops are added to compensate extra sugar, if the mash was lower then you would increase dryness, if you mash higher you would increase body?

I don't know, I say this in hope to be educated.

 

[pjj2ba]

I can understand that adding sugar does not subtract malt but wouldn't adding the sugar increase the sweetness if you don't increase your hop addition to match? Corn sugar is 100% fermentable but yeast will only attenuate an average of 75% so you would have and extra 25% more sweetness to the beer?

As far as dryness goes, I don't think adding sugar would increase dryness because the malt is still in "balance" with the original recipe, it should only increase alcohol and added sweetness if no extra hops are added to compensate extra sugar, if the mash was lower then you would increase dryness, if you mash higher you would increase body?

I don't know, I say this in hope to be educated.

The attenuation numbers given for yeast reflect some of the sugars that the yeast can or cannot consume. They all can eat up things like glucose, fructose, sucrose and maltose, and typically you will not find these in a finished beer. There are other sugars in the wort though that some some yeast cannot consume, while others can. This is where the percentages come in. It is these "oddball" sugars that contribute to a beer's final gravity. Corn sugar (glucose) is 100 % fermentable, and all yeast will 100% consume all of it (unless you go over the yeast strains ABV tolerance).

Chris is right, to dry out a beer's finish you have to replace malt with sugar. Adding more sugar on top of the regular amount of malt, simply boosts ABV

 

[Clarke]

The attenuation numbers given for yeast reflect some of the sugars that the yeast can or cannot consume. They all can eat up things like glucose, fructose, sucrose and maltose, and typically you will not find these in a finished beer. There are other sugars in the wort though that some some yeast cannot consume, while others can. This is where the percentages come in. It is these "oddball" sugars that contribute to a beer's final gravity. Corn sugar (glucose) is 100 % fermentable, and all yeast will 100% consume all of it (unless you go over the yeast strains ABV tolerance).

Chris is right, to dry out a beer's finish you have to replace malt with sugar. Adding more sugar on top of the regular amount of malt, simply boosts ABV

I assumed that the attenuation percentage on the yeast was for fermentable sugars only before it flocculates. There are so many variables when you include none fermentable sugar to the yeast attenuation rate. How would the yeast bank calculate none fermentable sugar to a specific yeast and broad brush that percentage as typical for all beers?

Each yeast has a different attenuation and flocculation rate so one yeast must eat more or less than the other, so all fermentable sugar is surely not eaten? Would it be logical to say that corn sugar is simple so yeast would consume this first and leave some more complex sugars behind that it may have eaten if the corn sugar was not added before it flocculates? And if this was the case the beer would still be sweeter and have more body? Unless you pitch more yeast to handle more sugar?

 

[pjj2ba]

The sweetness of a beer is due to sweet tasting compounds that the yeast cannot consume, not leftover simple sugars. When we bottle beer, we add some fresh simple sugars to the beer and the yeast happily consume these to produce CO2 for carbonation (and a little ethanol). If the yeast were at their attenuation limit, then this would not work. So the yeast eat up all of the simple sugars, and leave behind the more complicated sugars. If there were any simple sugars left in the wort, the yeast eat all of those up.

Yeast attenuation is giving as a range. This is to take into account differences in wort composition and fermentation temperatures.

If you give a beer yeast a media that was just corn sugar with a OG of 1.040 (+ nutrients) almost all strains would take it to 1.000

 

[Clarke]

The sweetness of a beer is due to sweet tasting compounds that the yeast cannot consume, not leftover simple sugars. When we bottle beer, we add some fresh simple sugars to the beer and the yeast happily consume these to produce CO2 for carbonation (and a little ethanol). If the yeast were at their attenuation limit, then this would not work. So the yeast eat up all of the simple sugars, and leave behind the more complicated sugars. If there were any simple sugars left in the wort, the yeast eat all of those up.

Yeast attenuation is giving as a range. This is to take into account differences in wort composition and fermentation temperatures.

If you give a beer yeast a media that was just corn sugar with a OG of 1.040 (+ nutrients) almost all strains would take it to 1.000

I am almost with you...

When bottling the beer, yeast happy consumes this priming sugar because it has been agitated back into suspension, out of flocculation. I am not implying that yeast has an attenuation limit only once flocculated it is no longer attenuating.

Highly flocculant yeasts can sometimes settle out before the fermentation is finished, leaving higher than normal levels of diacetyl or even leftover fermentable sugars. Pitching an adequate amount of healthy yeast is the best solution to this potential problem.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-1.html

I am not trying to argue, there is a lot I just don't understand...

 

[peterj]

I assumed that the attenuation percentage on the yeast was for fermentable sugars only before it flocculates. There are so many variables when you include none fermentable sugar to the yeast attenuation rate. How would the yeast bank calculate none fermentable sugar to a specific yeast and broad brush that percentage as typical for all beers?

Each yeast has a different attenuation and flocculation rate so one yeast must eat more or less than the other, so all fermentable sugar is surely not eaten? Would it be logical to say that corn sugar is simple so yeast would consume this first and leave some more complex sugars behind that it may have eaten if the corn sugar was not added before it flocculates? And if this was the case the beer would still be sweeter and have more body? Unless you pitch more yeast to handle more sugar?

The attenuation rates given by yeast companies are based on a standardized "average composition" wort. These rates can and will change (sometimes drastically) based on what kind of wort you use (mash temp, grain bill, fermentation temp, pitching rate, etc.). The rates are just useful to get a general idea of how a yeast attenuates with an "average wort" and compared to other yeasts. It is not at all a hard and fast number.

I am almost with you...

When bottling the beer, yeast happy consumes this priming sugar because it has been agitated back into suspension, out of flocculation. I am not implying that yeast has an attenuation limit only once flocculated it is no longer attenuating.


http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-1.html

I am not trying to argue, there is a lot I just don't understand...

I don't think flocculation is ever a limiting factor for yeast attenuation in the primary fermentation. It takes a VERY long time for yeast to completely flocculate out to the point where they won't ferment any more fermentable sugars. Like at least 6 months to a year. So there is more than enough time for them to consume all of the fermentable sugars before they do. There is still TONS of yeast floating in your beer even when you drink it, even if you can't really see them.

As for the OP, I agree with what people have said before that the corn sugar will ferment out completely so it will just add to the ABV and shouldn't throw it out of balance at all. Because alcohol is thinner than water, the extra alcohol from the corn sugar may bring the FG down a little bit (like a point or two?). But it probably won't be noticeably drier from it. And it definitely won't subtract malt flavor.

 

[Clarke]

fair enough

Thank you both

 

[Michael311]

Thanks for the informative feedback!


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