Decisions on Glyco Chiller

[neon0107]

Hi All,

Now that I have a conical I have been looking into a glyco system. I tried the homemade route and ended up ruining the a/c. While trying to bend it to get it into place, I was moving slowly and watching the copper towards the condenser and did not notice it was bending at the other end. Oh well, just 40.00 down the drain. Was going to try again, but no luck finding any more used a/c units so now looking into just taking the plunge. I have been looking at the penguin 1/3 hp one and the Icemaster 100. I have read the reviews and the concerns with some of the issues with the Icemaster 100 but they seem like simple fixes if needed. I like that it is 3/8 hp and the reservoir is 8 gallons. the penguin is just 1/3 hp and reservoir is just 1.25 gallons. My main concern is I will be running in the garage here in Texas and it will get hot so I know during those times any unit will need to run more. I am wondering if the penguin would run less with a smaller reservoir or would the small size make if difficult to keep up with maintaining temps? If you were going to go with either of this, what do you like and why?

I just brew 5 gallon batches. Will have two conicals. Want to start making lagers too.

Thanks for any advice. Just want to make sure going with what makes most sense with the large purchase.

 

[Vale71]

The smaller unit will have to run more to keep up simply beacause of the lesser performance of the cooling unit, although the difference is so small that it will probably matter only if it's so hot that the unit gets close to its limit. The smaller reservoir will also mean that it probably will start more often which is also worse for tear and wear.

 

[WBCo]

I'm looking at the same two units myself. It'll be going in my basement, so I don't have to worry about the same temperature issues as you, but I'm having a hard time making a decision. I'll be chilling two CF10 conicals and after buying one of the pumps from Spike, I'll be buying some submersible aquarium pumps with a little more power behind them.

 

[mongoose33]

It seems like the larger size would be more...effective or efficient or something, but there's an issue of both recovery and having to keep 8 gallons of glycol solution cold that exists with the large one.

I have the penguin; the thing is a beast. Because it's not having to deal with 8 gallons but only 2, the recovery is terrifically fast. If I'm crashing I'll set the penguin to 28 degrees; the highest it ever gets is about 31/32, as when it kicks on, it's got such a large coil surface area relative to what it's cooling that it drives the temp back down fast.

And I like not having to create 8 gallons of fluid but only 2. One gallon glycol, one gallon water, and I'm good.

BTW, in case you're interested, I did do a homemade chiller using the freezer compartment of my ferm chamber. It worked. I thought that the inability to get my conical down lower than 38 was chiller-based, which it turns out is not the case. That's why I bought the Penguin. If you want to see the odyssey, here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...and-best-practices.645440/page-6#post-8280727

and here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...and-best-practices.645440/page-5#post-8269295

 

[neon0107]

It seems like the larger size would be more...effective or efficient or something, but there's an issue of both recovery and having to keep 8 gallons of glycol solution cold that exists with the large one.

I have the penguin; the thing is a beast. Because it's not having to deal with 8 gallons but only 2, the recovery is terrifically fast. If I'm crashing I'll set the penguin to 28 degrees; the highest it ever gets is about 31/32, as when it kicks on, it's got such a large coil surface area relative to what it's cooling that it drives the temp back down fast.

And I like not having to create 8 gallons of fluid but only 2. One gallon glycol, one gallon water, and I'm good.

BTW, in case you're interested, I did do a homemade chiller using the freezer compartment of my ferm chamber. It worked. I thought that the inability to get my conical down lower than 38 was chiller-based, which it turns out is not the case. That's why I bought the Penguin. If you want to see the odyssey, here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...and-best-practices.645440/page-6#post-8280727

and here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...and-best-practices.645440/page-5#post-8269295

Thanks mongoose33 for the info and the two articles. I did something a little similar with a mini fridge. It worked ok but never could cold crash with it. I think I am going to pull the trigger on the penguin tonight.

 

[neon0107]

I'm looking at the same two units myself. It'll be going in my basement, so I don't have to worry about the same temperature issues as you, but I'm having a hard time making a decision. I'll be chilling two CF10 conicals and after buying one of the pumps from Spike, I'll be buying some submersible aquarium pumps with a little more power behind them.

Nice on the CF10's. Just got my first CF5 and can't wait to use it. May do the same thing and pick up a more powerful pump. Good idea!

 

[czmkid]

As you can see in my profile picture I have the original 1/4 Ss glycol chiller and now three unitanks. These two items have taken my beer to the next level. With the ability to perfectly control fermentation temps and o2 free transfers as well as perfect carbonation. All three tanks are on my covered back porch in the central Texas heat and cold and have no issues cold crashing (1 tank at a time) and or holding temps. Biggest issue I have is with condensation and to solve that issue I got rubber boot trays and have now started putting pitchers below the dump valve u bend to catch condensation.

My only regret was not making these purchases sooner. Go for it and never look back. No brainer if you have the coin to spend....

 

[augiedoggy]

Hi All,

Now that I have a conical I have been looking into a glyco system. I tried the homemade route and ended up ruining the a/c. While trying to bend it to get it into place, I was moving slowly and watching the copper towards the condenser and did not notice it was bending at the other end. Oh well, just 40.00 down the drain. Was going to try again, but no luck finding any more used a/c units so now looking into just taking the plunge. I have been looking at the penguin 1/3 hp one and the Icemaster 100. I have read the reviews and the concerns with some of the issues with the Icemaster 100 but they seem like simple fixes if needed. I like that it is 3/8 hp and the reservoir is 8 gallons. the penguin is just 1/3 hp and reservoir is just 1.25 gallons. My main concern is I will be running in the garage here in Texas and it will get hot so I know during those times any unit will need to run more. I am wondering if the penguin would run less with a smaller reservoir or would the small size make if difficult to keep up with maintaining temps? If you were going to go with either of this, what do you like and why?

I just brew 5 gallon batches. Will have two conicals. Want to start making lagers too.

Thanks for any advice. Just want to make sure going with what makes most sense with the large purchase.

I would look on facebook and craigslist too if I were you.. we bought the micromatic chiller (1/3hp I believe) we use at the brewery to control temps on all 4 110gallon conicals at a local restaurant auction for $225... its a glycol beerline chiller that we just use the main pump built in to pump the coolant through a cpvc manifold with 12V solenoid valves that turn on and open along with the main pump whenever one or more of the conicals need cooling.
It does work very well.

I use a scaled down similiar system at home with blue discharge hose wrapped around the outside of my stainless conicals for cooling instead of coils inside like we use at the brewery. I prefer the wrap which is more like a jacket and much easier for cleanup.

 

[303Dan]

I have the Penguin and couldn't be happier with it so far, for all the reasons mongoose33 mentioned.

 

[Vale71]

Biggest issue I have is with condensation and to solve that issue I got rubber boot trays and have now started putting pitchers below the dump valve u bend to catch condensation.

Tell me abou it. My unitank is in my basement (tiled floor) and I've lost count of how many times I nearly broke my neck slipping and falling. I did get some adhesive insulating tape to wrap around the u-bend and to put on the top part of the legs and the situation has improved somewhat, but boy does that look ugly on the tank...

 

[augiedoggy]

Insulating the tank does eliminate most of the condensation issue (except on the valves) and I dont mean the stylish wetsuit jackets they sell with some of the fermenters. Those help but they are more of a cosmetic compromise.
It may not be blingy but a few layers of foil faced bubble wrap type insulation does wonders cut and taped together with foil tape.

 

[mongoose33]

Insulating the tank does eliminate most of the condensation issue (except on the vlaves) and I dont mean the stylish wetsuit jackets they sell with some of the fermenters.
It may not be blingy but a few layers of foil faced bubble wrap type insulation does wonders cut and taped together with foil tape.

My wife called it the "Tin Man":

 

[neon0107]

As you can see in my profile picture I have the original 1/4 Ss glycol chiller and now three unitanks. These two items have taken my beer to the next level. With the ability to perfectly control fermentation temps and o2 free transfers as well as perfect carbonation. All three tanks are on my covered back porch in the central Texas heat and cold and have no issues cold crashing (1 tank at a time) and or holding temps. Biggest issue I have is with condensation and to solve that issue I got rubber boot trays and have now started putting pitchers below the dump valve u bend to catch condensation.

My only regret was not making these purchases sooner. Go for it and never look back. No brainer if you have the coin to spend....

Nice setup!! I am just down the road in Boerne so temps in my garage will be similar. Glad to know things should be ok as long as just cold crashing one at a time which should not be a problem.

 

[neon0107]

I have the Penguin and couldn't be happier with it so far, for all the reasons mongoose33 mentioned.

Nice, That is what I ended up ordering last week. It just shipped today and should be here Thursday!! Can't wait!

 

[augiedoggy]

BTW I read a bit about the penguin on a probrewer thread where an owner stated they are made from new modified repurposed window ac units..That person may be wrong but if not although they seemed very confident in the converstion about it, If they were right, I am curios if they changed the cooling coils the typical copper coils that wrap around the inside of the walls of the reservoir tank or if they use the original ac unit evaporator unit like diy chillers do?

 

[augiedoggy]

so I did a quick search of penguin chillers and believe I cfound one of the window ac units penquin uses... looking through it seems many of their 1hp and smaller units are made from window ac units... not that thier is anything wrong with this at all.. just something that might factor into performance since window ac units tend to use larger condensors and smaller evap units compared to the 5 different types of chillers I have. On the pictured unit they clearly changed the evap unit to a coiled copper unit which would make performance superior to a homemade ac unit diy chiller. I assume they kept the large condensor unit which should net better performance than most chiller this HP size. The 1/3hp micromatic chiller I have uses a condensor thats not even half this size. I'm no expert but I would think that the larger condensor would allow this to recover quicker and run longer cycles.

they do appear to make them from a 5,000btu ac unit and larger
its intersting how other chiller companies advertise btu sized units as different power output chillers. penquin touches on that here https://www.penguinchillers.com/knowledge-center/what-is-btu/

micromatics numbers are different.
https://www.micromatic.com/glycol-cooled-components/power-packs


This is the one I bought for $225 buck at an auction and at 1/3hp it cools 4 3bbl fermenter very well so the smallest chiller should work fine for 15 gallon tanks.
https://www.micromatic.com/Pro-line-glycol-power-pack-2300-BTUs-1-3hp-mmpp4301

The real question is which number better represents the units cooling capacity, the btu of the compressor or the HP rating of the chiller?

heres a diy build using the same 5,000 btu ac unit.
https://backdeckbrewing.wordpress.com/2017/09/05/glycol-chiller-build/

 

[mongoose33]

@augiedoggy good, you posted a pic so I didn't have to.

The pic showing the coils is, well, a bad angle. There are two or three coils nested within themselves, so the surface area with which the coils are chilling is much greater than you'd find in a window air conditioner. This explains its fast recovery as the reservoir is only 2 gallons, plus the coils-to-liquid ratio is huge. There's barely enough room in there for four of the little pumps.

It has long struck me that this is much more expensive than it needs to be, but maybe the cooling unit is greater capacity than a normal air conditioner.

I'm not sure how that all works; a window air conditioner might have 5000 btus of capacity; the 1/2 hp Penguin I have shows only 2850 BTUs, but I don't know how that would work, nor if they're measuring the same thing. Heck, 1/2 hp is only equivalent to 1272 btus/hr, according to one conversion I found.

All I know is it takes a little bit for a window air conditioner to bring temps down to cool the air, whereas the Penguin is very fast.

Here's a top view of the chilling coils; if you look closely you can see the nested coils:

 

[augiedoggy]

@augiedoggy good, you posted a pic so I didn't have to.

The pic showing the coils is, well, a bad angle. There are two or three coils nested within themselves, so the surface area with which the coils are chilling is much greater than you'd find in a window air conditioner. This explains its fast recovery as the reservoir is only 2 gallons, plus the coils-to-liquid ratio is huge. There's barely enough room in there for four of the little pumps.

It has long struck me that this is much more expensive than it needs to be, but maybe the cooling unit is greater capacity than a normal air conditioner.

I'm not sure how that all works; a window air conditioner might have 5000 btus of capacity; the 1/2 hp Penguin I have shows only 2850 BTUs, but I don't know how that would work, nor if they're measuring the same thing. Heck, 1/2 hp is only equivalent to 1272 btus/hr, according to one conversion I found.

All I know is it takes a little bit for a window air conditioner to bring temps down to cool the air, whereas the Penguin is very fast.

Here's a top view of the chilling coils; if you look closely you can see the nested coils:

thats interesting since penquin states in this article that they use a 5,000btu unit in thier 1/2hp chiller?
https://www.penguinchillers.com/knowledge-center/what-is-btu/
also I cannot find window ac units smaller than 5,000btus and thats where they get the compressor units from when they build the smaller penguin chillers so? maybe they use the compressor from a dehumidifier for the smaller units ? strange since thay are resuing a window ac units metal casing for those too it seems?


btw I was editing my post when you replied.

 

[augiedoggy]

my 1/3hp chiller at home has a about 3gallon resevoir and my 1/3hp chiller at the brewery has an 11.5gallon reservior... unfortunatley they are working with drastically different cooling loads so I cant tell you how much of a real world impact it has on thier performance but im sure the one with the 11 gallon reserve can cool faster initially.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have 3 other chillers from work that actually have no reservior.. they have what I can best describe like a rims tube like setup, cooling (or heating with a small heaterbuilt into the jacketed tube) the liquid as it passes through the tube. I imagine the flowrate needs to be lower on these but im curious how well they will work on a jacketed fermenter which is where I intend on using them.

 

[mongoose33]

thats interesting since penquin states in this article that they use a 5,000btu unit in thier 1/2hp chiller?
https://www.penguinchillers.com/knowledge-center/what-is-btu/
also I cannot find window ac units smaller than 5,000btus and thats where they get the compressor units from when they build the smaller penguin chillers so? maybe they use the compressor from a dehumidifier for the smaller units ? strange since thay are resuing a window ac units metal casing for those too it seems?

btw I was editing my post when you replied.

I hadn't seen that article, though I'm not sure it helped me any....

The casing isn't from a window air conditioner; no place for controls, no vents.

On this page, they note the unit is rated at 2850 btu at 28 degrees. Lower on the page they note it'll do 3580 btu at 38 degrees. I imagine the heat transfer in BTUs is even higher at higher temps, though again, I'm not 100 percent sure I'm comparing apples to kumquats.

 

[mongoose33]

my 1/3hp chiller at home has a about 3gallon resevoir and my 1/3hp chiller at the brewery has an 11.5gallon reservior... unfortunatley they are working with drastically different cooling loads so I cant tell you how much of a real world impact it has on thier performance but im sure the one with the 11 gallon reserve can cool faster initially.

That was the difference i was alluding to above, but you said it better. Yeah, the initial cooling thermal mass is much greater in the larger reservoir, but then it becomes an issue of how quickly the system can return the reservoir temp to the set point.

One reason I like the Penguin is the reservoir never gets above about 31 or 32 when crashing a fermenter (using the stainless coil inside; I'm sure copper would work better). It essentially is simulating the larger reservoir size by maintaining that temp. If I had greater heat-exchange ability in my fermenter--imagine a nested coil like the Jaded Hydra--I'm not sure if it could keep up with that. I doubt it. But with the stainless coil, no problem, but then the heat transfer rate isn't as great.

 

[augiedoggy]

I hadn't seen that article, though I'm not sure it helped me any....

The casing isn't from a window air conditioner; no place for controls, no vents.

On this page, they note the unit is rated at 2850 btu at 28 degrees. Lower on the page they note it'll do 3580 btu at 38 degrees. I imagine the heat transfer in BTUs is even higher at higher temps, though again, I'm not 100 percent sure I'm comparing apples to kumquats.

the front face section of the ac unit is a separate piece which would have been reoved entirely. As you can clearly see in the photos I shared above the metal shroud or "case" clearly contains all the same vents markings and indentations as the walmart 5,000 btu ac unit pic shared. the last pic of the penguin pretty clearly shows a window ac unit with the front removed, mounted into the penguin case. I imagine penguin orders these incomplete units from the ac company and adds their own evap/coil and reservoir tank this way they can likely get around having to do a lot of the lab testing and safety/ul listing certifications for the cooling device utilized, just a theory. The cooling tank very strongly resembles an anodized deep restaurant pan.. there is another company that makes similiar chillers from ac units and sells them on amazon and ebay.. at least there used to be. I almost bought one for my reef tank years ago.

 

[mongoose33]

the front face section of the ac unit is a separate piece which would have been reoved entirely. As you can clearly see in the photos I shared above the metal shroud or "case" clearly contains all the same vents markings and indentations as the walmart 5,000 btu ac unit pic shared. the last pic of the penguin pretty clearly shows a window ac unit with the front removed, mounted into the penguin case. I imagine penguin orders these incomplete units from the ac company and adds their own evap/coil and reservoir tank this way they can likely get around having to do a lot of the lab testing and safety/ul listing certifications for the cooling device utilized, just a theory.

I agree, looks pretty similar, especially the back part. But the Penguin is longer, and you can see the the case isn't the same length. Makes me wonder if they're using the same manufacturer for their internal guts since the top shows such striking similarity.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree, looks pretty similar, especially the back part. But the Penguin is longer, and you can see the the case isn't the same length. Makes me wonder if they're using the same manufacturer for their internal guts since the top shows such striking similarity.

I do believe the ac shroud is slipped under the other shroud giving it that look and covering the rest actually. you can actually make out the rolled over metal surface edge sitting on top of it if you look closely. It also may be cut down a bit since the front section of the ac unit is no longer there.
some of the equipment I work on is built the same way with reporposed components. I used to work on a newpaper platesetter that utilized a motorcycle jack to lift and position plates into loading height.

Its kinda funny if the penquin actually is ul listed for this use... I think I told you I had to hire an engineer to ok the use of the lg window ac units we use with coolbots because window ac units are not UL listed for any other purpose than window installations for recreational cooling as I was told and was confirmed by LG. our inspector would not let us use them as they did not "meet code" until we had the letter from the engineer. there wasnt even any modifications done to the ac unit in our case.

 

[augiedoggy]

heres a pic of another older? model and you can clearly see its made from a window ac unit im willing to bet this one even used the ac units original evap unit to save space.. they likely have been improving the design as they go. although this one is still available on amazon with great reviews. ...https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B001AZZTW8/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

 

[mongoose33]

Oh, I'm not doubting that there are similarities; the issue is it isn't the same thing exactly because the cooling coils are (necessarily) different.

Here's a link to a post for a DIY glycol chiller that uses that exact WalMart air conditioner (judging by the case, looks the same as the above). Note the difference in the chilling coils with the air conditioner versus the penguin chiller.

They're not just using a window air conditioner out of the box, not without some additions. That's why I wondered if they had the guts made separately, though the lead times on these things suggest they're retrofitting actual window air conditioners to accommodate the different coil design, then re-charging it.

If they are just using a window air conditioner...those things go for well under $150. Seems like a lot of money considering the guts are pretty much the same.

 

[augiedoggy]

Oh, I'm not doubting that there are similarities; the issue is it isn't the same thing exactly because the cooling coils are (necessarily) different.

Here's a link to a post for a DIY glycol chiller that uses that exact WalMart air conditioner (judging by the case, looks the same as the above). Note the difference in the chilling coils with the air conditioner versus the penguin chiller.

They're not just using a window air conditioner out of the box, not without some additions. That's why I wondered if they had the guts made separately, though the lead times on these things suggest they're retrofitting actual window air conditioners to accommodate the different coil design, then re-charging it.

If they are just using a window air conditioner...those things go for well under $150. Seems like a lot of money considering the guts are pretty much the same.

well theres no doubt in my mind that its a modified window ac unit. The cooling mechanism is essentially the same thing honestly as any other cooling condensor/compressor system used for refrigeration or cooling with refrigerant. they use a form of the stc1000 controller like I use on one of my chillers to control it. even the ac units evap is copper coil they just encase it in aluminum fins for better air transfer..
I also dont doubt the markups they make off each unit arent at least a few times the actual cost here... As a field engineer I know what some of the equipment I work on and the components actually cost vs retail and Ive seen general things like $40 stepper motors repackaged and labeled for specific use sold for over $2,000.. likewise Ive seen equipment that cost under $37k to make sell for $750,000+ its about market value more than actual cost in some less common fields.

look at flatscreen tvs... they cost less than $30 to manufacture yet until the feds busted the manufacturers for intentionally setting prices they were very expensive.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Just a friendly reminder. Cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

Just a friendly reminder. CheersView attachment 626836

While thats a good option for some that would cost me a fortune in fridges and electric not to mention I dont have the space for 4 upright full sized fridges in my brewing room.. surprisingly the single chiller I do have does not really effect my electric bill or run all that often when controlling all four fermenters. I also dont see from that photo how to heat the fermenter... Its a necessity for me to be able to perform dialectal rests and complete slow or stuck fermentation.

 

[CodeSection]

I'm looking at the same two units myself. It'll be going in my basement, so I don't have to worry about the same temperature issues as you, but I'm having a hard time making a decision. I'll be chilling two CF10 conicals and after buying one of the pumps from Spike, I'll be buying some submersible aquarium pumps with a little more power behind them.

I have been looking at the Penguin Glycol Chillers and had a few questions regarding the 1/3 HP vs the 1/2 HP. So, this morning I called them and spoke with Eric. He was great in answering all of my questions which convinced me that when I order a unit, it will be the 1/2 HP model....it is only $120 more in cost.

One of the questions I asked was about the glycol pump that they sell vs other pumps I could buy elsewhere. Eric assured me their glycol pump (https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/glycol-pump/) is more than adequate for most situations. He emphasized the real issue for pumps is their size so that they fit in the reservoir. I asked him about the pump I bought from Spike Brewing and he said it is the exact glycol pump they sell.

 

[Blazinlow86]

While thats a good option for some that would cost me a fortune in fridges and electric not to mention I dont have the space for 4 upright full sized fridges in my brewing room.. surprisingly the single chiller I do have does not really effect my electric bill or run all that often when controlling all four fermenters. I also dont see from that photo how to heat the fermenter... Its a necessity for me to be able to perform dialectal rests and complete slow or stuck fermentation.

I was fortunate to get this one from a member of my brew club for 50- 70$. For heating I just reused the 100watt bulb in a paint can I used when I had carboys and a chest freezer. Size wise for me because i have the cf15 and its a tight fit i actually save on floor space as the freezer itself is the same if not smaller footprint than a chiller and of course you dont need additional space for the conical this way. If you know your gonna get 4 smaller conicals or a single 1+ bbl glycol is a good option. Additionally if it works better for your specific process/situation for any reason then it's also the better choice. I just like to point out that it's possibly the most expensive/complicated way to cool 2-4 cases of beer and wont make a better end product. Not hating at all. Just reminding people that you don't need glycol to cool a conical. Cheers

 

[WBCo]

One of the questions I asked was about the glycol pump that they sell vs other pumps I could buy elsewhere. Eric assured me their glycol pump (https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/glycol-pump/) is more than adequate for most situations. He emphasized the real issue for pumps is their size so that they fit in the reservoir. I asked him about the pump I bought from Spike Brewing and he said it is the exact glycol pump they sell.

I assumed they were the same, by looking at pictures, which is why I went with the Spike pump. It's $9 cheaper and I already had free shipping from Spike because of the other equipment I purchased. I already have it so I'm gonna give it a shot, but the size of it definitely gives me pause, especially for the price.

 

[augiedoggy]

I assumed they were the same, by looking at pictures, which is why I went with the Spike pump. It's $9 cheaper and I already had free shipping from Spike because of the other equipment I purchased. I already have it so I'm gonna give it a shot, but the size of it definitely gives me pause, especially for the price.

These pumps can also be bought on amazon and ebay for about $20 shipped...

heres the same pump with threaded ports for $12 shipped...
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dc+pump+12v&_sop=12

this pump is also a great choice..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12VOLT-DC-...179695?hash=item2c8766266f:gnwAAOxyTjNSplWb

Brau supply used to sell these ones as wort pumps for $50 too