damn it. infection??

[pwnshop]

went to bottle a saison i have had in primary for four weeks this morning and i opened the lid and just judging from other pictures on here i think i might have an infection on the surface are a bunch of little filmy circles and bubbles.

i hope im wrong please tell me its not infected

i feel like im pretty good with sanitizing and i use starsan on everything always. i have opened the lid two other times once in the very beginning and once to take a gravity sample about 10 days in.

 

[stpug]

I would say that there's potential for infection there, but nothing that's definitive. The small bubble clusters are not unusual in a clean beer. The most concerning visual clue are the "grease slick" looking spots, but again these are not unusual in a clean beer either. The reason I say that there is potential is because of the amount grease slick spots and small-bubble clusters. Then again, you're using saison strain of yeast so this is all potentially normal. What strain by the way?

If you were kegging I would say no worries - proceed as normal. However, since you're bottling, I would recommend transferring to a secondary (carboy preferrable, plastic or glass) and keep the headspace to a minimum or try to back-purge with co2. Give it a couple more weeks and pull two more samples; one sample in one week, one sample in two weeks. Compare FGs and if you're not seeing any movement then bottle as normal. If you see the FG continue to drop then you can switch things up for a potentially sour beer, or dumper - your choice.

 

[nthammer]

I had something that looked similar before, it looks like a film might be developing on yours. if thats the case, itll become much more obvious in time and also smell like sour/green apples (at least mine did). the film will become much more apparent and offcolor.

this is what mine ended up looking like after a bit: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=417603

 

[pwnshop]

Its 3711 strain.

I just checked fg and its down only two points since I checked it like two weeks ago. If it were infected how quickly would the gravity drop? Its just below 1.000 now.

 

[pwnshop]

here is another picture. maybe a little clearer. i looked in my notes and on april 7th the beer was at 1.002ish. today (april 25) its looking like 0.998

 

[stpug]

Well, ****. After that last picture, you got me. It does look like something more than 3711 is going on there, but 3711 has the potential to get a FG that low as well. I would treat the beer as infected and proceed from there. Do you happen to know the IBU level of the beer?

 

[1977Brewer]

Yeah, that's infected. I'd let it ride and see where it goes. That bucket is trash anyway.

 

[itsrolled]

here is a good pic

 

[beergolf]

Yep, looks infected. At this point all you can do it let it ride and see how it tastes. Give it some more time to make sure that it will not go lower. 3711 on it's own cane take it down that far. If it is stable for a while and it tastes good then you can bottlw it up.

Keep us posted.

 

[unionrdr]

The original pic makes me call lacto infection, due to the "broken ice pack" look of the slick part. It can only go downhill from there. The last pics are definitely infected.

 

[MattyIce]

How does it smell?

 

[pwnshop]

How does it smell?

It smells fine and tastes fine really. I have never made this beer before and I don't know really how it should smell or taste. Its a saison and I'm not even too familiar with how the saisons smell or taste. I have no reference for comparison

 

[BigJack]

An infected saison is often a happy accident. See what happens.

 

[HumanGarbage]

I've had that in the past. Sometimes it tastes fine, other times foul.

Like the other poster said, trash that bucket. I've never been able to get an infected bucket totally clean again. Even if it isn't as bad, every beer made in it afterward will have some degree of pedicule development.

I got so pissed off with plastic for the above reason. I switched to using my glass secondarys as primarys and stopped doing a secondary at all. Never had an issue since. Glass is kind of a pain because of its fragility but easy to clean well. In about 40 batches since I've only broken one... While I was cleaning it thankfully so no precious beer lost.

 

[pwnshop]

an update after a week. it looks and smells the same. i took a sample and took a gravity reading and its down another 1 or 2 points. its around 0.996 now. Im guessing thats a pretty clear sign that it is indeed infected?

will it ever be safe to bottle? if i bottle it im looking at replacing the fermenter, bottling bucket, racking cane, all hose lines. do i need to replace my hydrometer and sample tube? will i be able to sterilize the bottles that i bottle it in or are do i have to discard those as well?

I think it tastes ok, so i'm actually cool with bottling it and giving it a chance (once the fg stops dropping). but I dont want to have to replace literally everything i own for making beer just to avoid dumping it...

 

[unionrdr]

Looks like the start of a lacto infection. Clean & bleach bomb everything. Then sanitize well.

 

[beergolf]

It seems to be infected. No way to tell exactly what it is by looks alone. It seems some of the amateur mico biologists here seem to think they can identify what type of infection it is by looks alone.But it could be several different organisms thay can produce a pelicile like that.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I know what it sounds like. But in my experiences, lacto infections start off looking like broken ice pack.

 

[beergolf]

I still say unless you look at it throught a microscope you cannot say what kind of infection it is. It could be lacto but it also could be other bacteria. Pelicile alone cannot identify the type of infection. I have done 7 or 8 sours that have lacto in them and each and every pelicile looks different...

I had one brew that I added brett start off looking like that too.

 

[unionrdr]

Huh. I've seen brett's that look different. Every infection I've had, to one degree or another, looked like broken ice pack. Then slimy bubbles that got furry, then azure color on top of the bubbles.

 

[beergolf]

Still you cannot positively identify an infection by the looks of a pellicile.

This is one of those things I read homebrewers say that makes me want to punch babies in the eye. You've seen it before: some homebrewer gets an infection, posts pictures asking what it is and people roll up proclaiming it's X bacteria or yeast based on the way the pellicle looks.

You cannot tell what an infection is by looking at the pellicle with the naked eye.

You cannot.

No. You can't.

There is simply no way to eyeball a pellicle and know what is underneath. Many bacteria and wild yeast create pellicles. They can create pellicles that look the same, especially if your infection is caused by multiple organisms. Lots of bacteria will make white or white-ish pellicles. You cannot just look at that and decide it's lactobacillus. You would have to take a sample, look at it under a microscope and be able to determine exactly what you have (which may be a difficult task itself). If you could, breweries dealing with infections could just brew a batch, wait for a pellicle to appear and then diagnose the problem by looking at it. Ever heard of a brewery doing that? No, I haven't either. They send cultures to a lab to diagnose under a microscope.

Part of what fuels this nonsense is the belief that the only organisms that can live in your beer is saccharomyces cerevisiae, brettanomyces, pediococcus, lactobacillus and acetobacter. This itself is untrue, but people think there's only three things that will form a pellicle and that means you have a one in three chances of guessing correctly. Well, that's not true at all. Lots of other stuff does live in beer and will form a pellicle. Some non-brettanomyces yeast can live in your beer and will form a pellicle. There are lots of bacteria that can also mix it up in your beer. Not just pedio and lacto.

It doesn't really matter whether you think you have a lactobacillus infection or a zymomonas infection. Your sanitation procedure should still be the same. However, you can avoid sounding foolish by not looking at pictures of pellicles and proclaiming to know what it is.

I agree with this. Unless you have a microscope and a degree in micro biology, identification by looking at a pellicile does not confrim anything other than the beer is infected.

Every infection I've had, to one degree or another, looked like broken ice pack. Then slimy bubbles that got furry, then azure color on top of the bubbles.

Wow it must suck to brew as little as you do and get multiple infections.

 

[unionrdr]

Actually, I've only had one go that far. The rest weren't anywhere near that bad. But looking at various infections On here, against the few I've had, some wild yeasts, whatever have made different looking pellicles. So I started to think they all made pellicles in slightly different ways. I wish the kids hadn't destroyed my microscope. That would've been interesting.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I am not surprised this is infected. IMO, opening a bucket fermenter at 10 days to check gravity, then allowing it to sit another 20 days is a very bad idea. When using a fermenter with such an open head space, as soon as you open it you are allowing oxygen to contact the upper surface, this type of infection will likely happen to almost any beer exposed to oxygen for that length of time.

IMHO, once fermentation is done, and you open a bucket fermenter, it should then be moved to bottle or keg, and once carbed should ideally be stored chilled. It is almost impossible to keep every unwanted bug out of your beer, but by limiting the exposure to oxygen, and storing cold, one can prevent the propagation of the unwanted culture.

IMHO, this infection is the result of improper handling of the beer, not a lack of sanitation.

I also feel that if this occurs, one can consume it fresh prior to letting the infection take hold, as once the beer is chilled, the cold will keep the infection at bay.

 

[pwnshop]

I am not surprised this is infected. IMO, opening a bucket fermenter at 10 days to check gravity, then allowing it to sit another 20 days is a very bad idea. When using a fermenter with such an open head space, as soon as you open it you are allowing oxygen to contact the upper surface, this type of infection will likely happen to almost any beer exposed to oxygen for that length of time.

IMHO, once fermentation is done, and you open a bucket fermenter, it should then be moved to bottle or keg, and once carbed should ideally be stored chilled. It is almost impossible to keep every unwanted bug out of your beer, but by limiting the exposure to oxygen, and storing cold, one can prevent the propagation of the unwanted culture.

IMHO, this infection is the result of improper handling of the beer, not a lack of sanitation.

I also feel that if this occurs, one can consume it fresh prior to letting the infection take hold, as once the beer is chilled, the cold will keep the infection at bay.

Ok. I'm still a beginner this is maybe my 6th full all grain batch. I have read to take gravity samples so I did, but I probably won't bother anymore and leave the lids closed until I'm ready to bottle.

That being said. I want to bottle this and ride it out. I just want to know if I will need to replace all my stuff afterwards. Is it right that I can bleach everything after bottling and use it again on the next batch?

Also I think the fg might still be dropping so should I wait longer to bottle this or just go for it ? I.e will the gravity ever even stop dropping?

 

[wilserbrewer]

As you probably noticed already, opinions vary.

I would go ahead and bottle it, of course assuming it doesn't taste foul. I would then let it carb for a week or so and once the carbonation seems good I would refrigerate all the bottles.

While some would advise you replace the fermenter, I would clean it, bleach it, or perhaps even heat sanitize it idk.

 

[pwnshop]

As you probably noticed already, opinions vary.

I would go ahead and bottle it, of course assuming it doesn't taste foul. I would then let it carb for a week or so and once the carbonation seems good I would refrigerate all the bottles.

While some would advise you replace the fermenter, I would clean it, bleach it, or perhaps even heat sanitize it idk.

Ok. I don't mind replacing the fermenter bucket, but how about the bottling bucket and auto siphon etc? And will the bottles be reusable after washing and sanitizing?

No it doesn't taste foul I have tasted it with some friends and we all agree its pretty good which is why I'm considering not dumping it

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I was also thinking Clean>warm rinse>bleach bomb>rinse>sanitize.

 

[Hanso]

If it's a saison it's probably delicious.

 

[MagicMatt]

IMHO, once fermentation is done, and you open a bucket fermenter, it should then be moved to bottle or keg, and once carbed should ideally be stored chilled.

Funny, those are conflicting ideas: "don't open the bucket" and "once fermentation is done"; how can you tell if fermentation is done if you don't take a gravity reading? And how can you take a gravity reading without opening the bucket???

And if it isn't fermented out yet???? Just act like you didn't open the bucket?

 

[Psylocide]

Funny, those are conflicting ideas: "don't open the bucket" and "once fermentation is done"; how can you tell if fermentation is done if you don't take a gravity reading? And how can you take a gravity reading without opening the bucket???

And if it isn't fermented out yet???? Just act like you didn't open the bucket?

Brew a lot of batches and gravity readings really aren't needed.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Funny, those are conflicting ideas: "don't open the bucket" and "once fermentation is done"; how can you tell if fermentation is done if you don't take a gravity reading? And how can you take a gravity reading without opening the bucket???

And if it isn't fermented out yet???? Just act like you didn't open the bucket?

Haha you got me....what I was trying to say is don't muck around with your beer allowing it to sit for 20 days with oxygen in the head space of a bucket fermenter. I always cringe when I read the advice given to noobs to freely and frequently check the gravity. In this case had the OP merely waited longer to open the fermenter, and then bottled sooner, I feel the batch likely wouldn't have gone south as it did.

In this case, I believe the OP would have been better served to throw the hydrometer in the trash, open the fermenter and bottle at three weeks rather than leaving the beer exposed to air for 20 days.

 

[stpug]

The idea of gravity readings not being needed after brewing a lot of batches isn't necessarily a good one. There are may situations where you're only way of know if something is still happening is by checking the gravity. Things happen for various reasons, and the fact that we're using a living culture is significant. Gravity readings are important and can reveal somethings about your brew that you may otherwise miss. Checking your final gravity should be done in nearly all instances but I'm sure there are some circumstances when it's less important.

Don't muck around in your beer is a good rule to follow, but have a pulse on what's happening too. The more you brew the better your intuition becomes on what should be taking place; at what time; and what to generally expect. After fermentation is complete your beer is much safer than it was prior to fermentation, and as long as you have some yeast still active your beer then it provides some protection against oxidation as well since they'll likely scavenge any oxygen they can. The concerning part of opening a fermenter after fermentation is allowing a beer-hospitable microbe into your brew - many microbes aren't, but some are. Some good tips for testing gravity are:
-don't work in a drafty or dusty area; wait for your heater/ac to stop and the air to slow down
-don't take the entire lid off; crack it and pull a sample using a "cool device"
-devise a "cool device"; as simple as a sanitized turkey baster or sanitized syringe attached to some tubing
-don't lollygag; crack your lid, pull your sample(s), close your lid
-if you have fruit flies then just don't open your lid until you intend to bottle/keg
-sanitize anything that may come in contact with the beer or inside of fermenter; hands included

 

[katfude]

STEP 1: Install a spigot into the bucket.
STEP 2: Take gravity draws off of the spigot so you don't have to open the top and risk infection.
STEP 3: PRINT MONEY

 

[aprichman]

The idea of gravity readings not being needed after brewing a lot of batches isn't necessarily a good one. There are may situations where you're only way of know if something is still happening is by checking the gravity. Things happen for various reasons, and the fact that we're using a living culture is significant. Gravity readings are important and can reveal somethings about your brew that you may otherwise miss. Checking your final gravity should be done in nearly all instances but I'm sure there are some circumstances when it's less important.

Don't muck around in your beer is a good rule to follow, but have a pulse on what's happening too. The more you brew the better your intuition becomes on what should be taking place; at what time; and what to generally expect. After fermentation is complete your beer is much safer than it was prior to fermentation, and as long as you have some yeast still active your beer then it provides some protection against oxidation as well since they'll likely scavenge any oxygen they can. The concerning part of opening a fermenter after fermentation is allowing a beer-hospitable microbe into your brew - many microbes aren't, but some are. Some good tips for testing gravity are:
-don't work in a drafty or dusty area; wait for your heater/ac to stop and the air to slow down
-don't take the entire lid off; crack it and pull a sample using a "cool device"
-devise a "cool device"; as simple as a sanitized turkey baster or sanitized syringe attached to some tubing
-don't lollygag; crack your lid, pull your sample(s), close your lid
-if you have fruit flies then just don't open your lid until you intend to bottle/keg
-sanitize anything that may come in contact with the beer or inside of fermenter; hands included

Hydrometers are good tools but they don't always give you the full story. I have personally experienced Belgian strains that will stabilize for 5+ days before continuing to ferment. The yeast makes little colonies towards the top while it is stabilized. A visual inspection can show me the yeast is temporarily stalled whereas a hydrometer would indicate the beer is at final gravity. Sometimes your senses and experience are the best tools.

 

[MagicMatt]

Brew a lot of batches and gravity readings really aren't needed.

Techincally you never "need" to take a reading to make beer. But if you want to make great, consistent beer, it's pretty necessary. Will it ruin a batch? Of course not. Though it could blow some bottles if FG hasn't been reached yet.
But in general, not knowing your numbers defeats the whole purpose of repeatability. Hence why all breweries still take gravity readings, though I'm sure hey hit their mark pretty reliably.

 

[MagicMatt]

I have personally experienced Belgian strains that will stabilize for 5+ days before continuing to ferment. The yeast makes little colonies towards the top while it is stabilized. A visual inspection can show me the yeast is temporarily stalled whereas a hydrometer would indicate the beer is at final gravity.

Ha, I hear ya! My Saison has been in Primary for 3.5 weeks now @ 94°F. Used Wyeast 3427 and it stalled out around 1.040. It's dropping, but slowly. It's my first saison but I hear they can ramp back up and finish pretty quickly out of the blue.

However, you should know what FG is for that particular beer, so just because the gravity has stabilized doesn't mean it's reached FG necessarily. I know 1.040 isn't my FG.

 

[Psylocide]

Techincally you never "need" to take a reading to make beer. But if you want to make great, consistent beer, it's pretty necessary. Will it ruin a batch? Of course not. Though it could blow some bottles if FG hasn't been reached yet.
But in general, not knowing your numbers defeats the whole purpose of repeatability. Hence why all breweries still take gravity readings, though I'm sure hey hit their mark pretty reliably.

Yeah. I take pre-boil, post-boil and FG when I keg.

Wouldn't need to though.

 

[stpug]

Hydrometers are good tools but they don't always give you the full story. I have personally experienced Belgian strains that will stabilize for 5+ days before continuing to ferment.

Somehow I feel like a few gravity readings might tell you something's still going on

My Saison has been in Primary for 3.5 weeks now @ 94°F. Used Wyeast 3427 and it stalled out around 1.040. It's dropping, but slowly.

How would you ever know that the gravity is still slowly dropping? If only we had a new-fangled, futuristic device that could tell us these things; or once we develop the ability to communicate with yeast then we can know. Until then, godisgood!

 

[pwnshop]

i think the idea of installing a spigot in my fermenters is a good one. just for sample taking so i dont ever have to open the lid until bottling.

You guys are right I probably just left it open too long or something. Now I know better for next time.

Im going to bottle it tonight along with another batch (will bottle the first batch first) then im going to bleach bomb all my gear. before next brew i'll replace all my tubing and possibly racking cane, but im going to keep the fermenter and bottling bucket and just bleach the bejeezus out of them.

i really like the spigot idea for taking samples.

 

[aprichman]

Somehow I feel like a few gravity readings might tell you something's still going on

Quite the opposite, the fermentation "stalled" because this is a tendency of the yeast strain. Taking 3 gravity readings over a 5-6 day period would have indicated there was no change in gravity. If all you rely on is a gravity reading that would indicate that the beer is done or has reached final gravity.

This conclusion would have been incorrect however. The yeast basically went into a 5-7 day hibernation and still needed more time to fully attenuate. The end result would be bottle bombs or unfinished beer in the keg.

So to reiterate, hydrometers are useful tools but you can't always rely solely on hydrometer readings to draw meaningful conclusions about your fermentation.