D47 Sur Lie

[RPh_Guy]

Questions for those familiar with this strain:

1. How low of a temperature will this ferment? 59°F?

2. What sort of timeframe is needed for the complex flavors from aging sur lie?

3. At what temperature are you aging?

4. Do you employ bâtonnage?

Pardon my French.

"When [D47 is] left on lees, ripe, spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes are developed. For optimum flavor production, the wine should be tasted often until the right flavor profile is reached. Once achieved, the wine should be racked from the lees into a secondary fermentor for aging."

http://winemakersacademy.com/sur-lie-aging-explained/

 

[bob1852]

1) I've gone down to 57*F with no problem at all...have been tempted to try even lower for the heck of it. Just keep it well fed.

3) usually high 60s, low 70s

Can't help with 2) or 4) as I haven't done any sur lie techniques.

Note: this has been for mead, not cider...

 

[bmd2k1]

I use D47 all the time both for ciders (reg & faux ice) & Concorde grape wines.

I typically ferment in the low to mid 60s -- and have gotten as low as 57F for short periods of time with my basement window open during the winter.

I haven't done any long term aging on lees yet - as I typically cold crash once my target FG is achieved (I prefer a semi to sweet cider FG 1.02-1.03 range) Post cold crash the lees are the consistency of a thick caramel syrup & there's not a lot of 'em compared to other yeasts I've tried. I'm not sure what the lees look like pre-cold crash since my Speidel fermentors are opaque.

I did have a back & forth convo with Lalvin last year re the upper end optimal temperature range & they in fact say it is 86F....and have corrected it on their sites....though many resellers still have it stated to be 68F. I've yet to attempt a hot summer ferment with it to test the outcome.

I've got a 4gal batch of reg cider going currently that I'm letting go dry & will be aging for a bit on the lees before cold crashing -- I'll post back later on the outcome [emoji16]

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[AzOr]

Maybe not quite what you are asking for on #4 but I have met amateur wine makers who stir on fine lees as a standard practice. Every week or so they use a tool (looks homemade) and stir up the fine lees to keep it in suspension. The idea is that it adds to the complexity and body of the wine.

 

[blasterooni]

Here is a podcast discussing aging on the lees (sur lie) for those interested
https://ciderchat.com/lees/

 

[RPh_Guy]

Here is a podcast discussing aging on the lees (sur lie) for those interested
https://ciderchat.com/lees/

Thanks for sharing!
That was a really good presentation even though he mispronounces a lot of words.
I need to listen to it again.

Skip the first 15 minutes of nonsense.

 

[AzOr]

Here is a podcast discussing aging on the lees (sur lie) for those interested
https://ciderchat.com/lees/

Yes thanks for that. I listened to most of the podcast on way to work.
I did t know it existed.

 

[Brooothru]

Questions for those familiar with this strain:

1. How low of a temperature will this ferment? 59°F?

2. What sort of timeframe is needed for the complex flavors from aging sur lie?

3. At what temperature are you aging?

4. Do you employ bâtonnage?

Pardon my French.

"When [D47 is] left on lees, ripe, spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes are developed. For optimum flavor production, the wine should be tasted often until the right flavor profile is reached. Once achieved, the wine should be racked from the lees into a secondary fermentor for aging."

http://winemakersacademy.com/sur-lie-aging-explained/

It's been more than a few years (7~8 perhaps) but I did two white wines (a French Chardonnay and a South African Savignon Blanc) both sur lie and batonnage. Both turned out pleasant enough though not significantly improved enough over the standard methodology of vinting to justify additional time as well as the risk of contamination.

After secondary fermentation is complete and settling begins, I normally rack wine to a clean carboy for bulk aging. With sur lie I just stirred everything back into suspension and racked it all into a fresh carboy without filtering or clarifying. Then every 7-10 days I'd gently stir the lees back into suspension, tasting a little each time to see how it was proceeding. IIRC, consensus at the time was minimum of six weeks to 6 months, cellar temp., stir once a week.

I was sure all this batonnage was going to introduce some random nasties into the wine. Fortunately all my sanitization steps were sufficient. I was also concerned about autolysis with the yeast, but that turned out to be a non-issue. Seems to me I got impatient after about four months and went ahead and bottled. The wine was fine, but just not on balance with risk/reward for me. YMMV.

Disclaimer: I have not done this process with mead or any fermentable other than wine, though I'd think the mechanics and outcome would be comparable.

N.B. Now if you want to talk about sous vide, I'm a real fan of that French methode and will talk all day, but that's for a totally different forum.

 

[bmd2k1]

Great info....Thanks [emoji111]

 

[blasterooni]

Yes thanks for that. I listened to most of the podcast on way to work.
I did t know it existed.

I love it! Sometimes its a bit corny, but there is a ton of great info there. ive listened to some of the episodes more than twice

 

[blasterooni]

Thanks for sharing!
That was a really good presentation even though he mispronounces a lot of words.
I need to listen to it again.

Skip the first 15 minutes of nonsense.

You crack me up Rph

 

[AzOr]

If you sulfite post fermentation, would that negate the effects of batonnage?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you sulfite post fermentation, would that negate the effects of batonnage?

That's a good question.
I've been pondering it as well. I think sulfite would be OK -- just my feeling, without any evidence of experience .... The flavors apparently don't come from biological activity, just cell death.

I feel like if I really wanted to do this I would get a thick 5gal PET bottle/carboy with a screw cap, sulfite it, and then roll it around a couple times a week for however many months.

 

[blasterooni]

If you sulfite post fermentation, would that negate the effects of batonnage?

Furthermore, could the yeast still be harvested, or will it no longer be viable for future batches? My intuition says yes, leaning more on maybe...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am not on board with harvesting wine yeast.
That practice is low reward and high risk.

 

[wasully]

I am not on board with harvesting wine yeast.
That practice is low reward and high risk.

If you're using a conical, the process shouldn't change, right? I'm asking out of ignorance here because I've never looked into how to do it "properly".

That said, since it seems most common wine yeasts are $2 packets of dry yeast that only needs rehydration...why bother?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you're using a conical, the process shouldn't change, right? I'm asking out of ignorance here because I've never looked into how to do it "properly".

No, I would never re-pitch wine yeast if I want a clean fermentation.

Re-pitching is low reward because wine yeast is so inexpensive. Dry yeast is easy to store and keep on hand because of the small size and long shelf life (especially refrigerated).

It's high risk because:
There's a 100% certainty that the slurry also contains wild microbes, which will yield unpredictable results (unless you only used pasteurized juice and ingredients and have good sanitation).
The yeast will be stressed from the high sugar, high ABV, and low nutrient conditions present in most wine.
Wine generally doesn't hide flaws very well. The results from all the dead, mutated, and wild cells in the slurry are more likely to be noticable.

Just my preference. Do whatever works for you.

If you want wild microbe and autolysis flavors and are ok with unpredictable results then it's not such a bad idea. I don't think that's what most people are after. I don't generally like the autolysis flavors, but D47 in particular is touted as having great flavors from sur lie.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's occurred to me that I can use D47 for bottle conditioning carbonated beverages. Since there's plenty of yeast in the bottle, it should develop the desirable flavors over time!

 

[ten80]

It's occurred to me that I can use D47 for bottle conditioning carbonated beverages. Since there's plenty of yeast in the bottle, it should develop the desirable flavors over time!

Yep, should work nicely for bottle-conditioning and aging in the bottle on lees, as does EC1118 and DV10.

I've aged cider on D47 lees for one year with most of the fermentation occurring between 40 and 50F, then temps climbing to the low 60's during summer before bottling in the fall. Super clean cider with a nice complexity and no off-flavors from "autolysis" as many fear. Interesting to note that 71B and many other Lallemand yeasts are not recommended for sur-lies aging.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've aged cider on D47 lees for one year with most of the fermentation occurring between 40 and 50F, then temps climbing to the low 60's during summer before bottling in the fall. Super clean cider with a nice complexity and no off-flavors from "autolysis" as many fear.

Just clean, or did you get any of the "ripe, spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes"?

 

[ten80]

Just clean, or did you get any of the "ripe, spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes"?

I can elaborate, it seems like my sur lies cider has complexity approaching that of a barrel-aged cider with almost oak-like notes and maybe a light nuttiness, perhaps reminiscent of a complex champagne. I am reminded of rustic barrel-aged cider my family made in Normandy. Nothing on the "ripe, spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes" that you describe, where did you find a reference to those descriptors and were they specific to D47 sur lies aging?

 

[RPh_Guy]

where did you find a reference to those descriptors and were they specific to D47 sur lies aging?

Yes, specific to D47, straight from Lallemand:
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalvin-icv-d47/

Autolysis generally causes savory notes like meat, egg, or soy. Nutty and oak definitely could be from from autolysis. Autolysed yeast is used in cooking for that reason.
I definitely taste savory (umami) flavor in my Brett-less bottle carbonated ciders after about 9-12 months at 65-70°F.

Disclaimer: I'm a super taster.

It's not bad, but I would rather be tasting the flavors described by Lallemand for D47.

 

[ten80]

I can say for certain that I have not experienced any of the negative flavors of autolysis when aging sur lies on D47. I think that autolysis and sur lie aging are somewhat synonymous because autolysis would invariably occur to some degree when aging on lees. I think that the difference between D47 and yeasts not advised for sur lies aging is that D47 creates pleasant flavor compounds from secondary metabolites and autolysis given enough time. For production of champagne, the result is often described as nuttly, bready, woody, and yeasty (in a pleasant way). This is also true for many Belgian yeasts and lambics such as those brewed by Cantillon.

I've had a few soy-sauce beers lately that were the result of sur lie aging on beer yeast in warm temps, so I'm overly familiar wit how they taste. Blegh! Nothing like the refined, complex taste of a carboy of D47 cider forgotten somewhere cool for a year of sur lie aging!

There's also some implications for sulfide generation when aging on certain yeasts, Lallemand advises against such aging for 71B and a few others. They have a summary table somewhere on their site.

Autolysis generally causes savory notes like meat, egg, or soy. Nutty and oak definitely could be from from autolysis. ...

It's not bad, but I would rather be tasting the flavors described by Lallemand for D47.

 

[RPh_Guy]

not experienced any of the negative flavors

That's good to know, even if it's not the info I want.

I used D47 for a 5gal batch this year, and when I was degassing it was giving off exactly the aroma that Lallemand describes, so apparently it doesn't take very long at ~70°F.

lambics such as those brewed by Cantillon.

Not true. Brett transforms autolysis flavor compounds.

 

[Albionwood]

D47 remains my go-to yeast for cider, although the batch I made with WLP733 is making me reconsider...

1. How low of a temperature will this ferment? 59°F?

I've had it continue well below that temperature. It will easily handle 50F. Great for long, slow ferments.

2. What sort of timeframe is needed for the complex flavors from aging sur lie?

Tough question. It's in the range of months at cool temperatures, but probably much faster (non-linearly) at higher temps. I've gone to racking off the gross lees though, to preserve the apple character, rather than waiting for yeast-derived flavor development. However... I also collect all the gross lees into a carboy and let that finish out for a couple months, and sometimes that produces an amazing cider. Sometimes its nasty though.

3. At what temperature are you aging?

Ambient in my cider shack is generally mid-50s to low 60s.

4. Do you employ bâtonnage?

Nope.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've gone to racking off the gross lees though, to preserve the apple character

So you prefer it without sur lie aging?

 

[Albionwood]

So you prefer it without sur lie aging?

Yes. I've had inconsistent results with sur-lie aging. My juice isn't pasteurized and I use a low dose of sulfite, so the lees have a lot of wild bugs in them, and sometimes the resulting funk is too strong. Also my fermentation takes months, so it kind of ages as it goes.

Having said that... I am going to try a product called "Sur-Lie" this year on some of my cider to see if it performs as advertised:
"An active dry yeast that can be added to wine as early as late fermentation, Sur-Lie contributes the positive sensory impact of lees aging while drastically reducing time and labor. Contact with Sur-Lie for three to five weeks contributes similar flavor and mouth feel components as does six months of lees ageing and stirring. " (MoreWine)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes. I've had inconsistent results with sur-lie aging. My juice isn't pasteurized and I use a low dose of sulfite, so the lees have a lot of wild bugs in them, and sometimes the resulting funk is too strong. Also my fermentation takes months, so it kind of ages as it goes.

That makes sense. I would add enough sulfite to inhibit the wild microbes if extended aging on the lees.

I doubt the Sur-Lie product will give the same flavor as D47, probably more neutral.

 

[blasterooni]

I'm going to make a 5 gallon batch with D47 in a couple days. Looks like I'll be referring to to this thread from time to time, good info here

Once it gets going, I'll post anything interesting.

I do have a question about racking off of the gross lees. So, when. I rack, do I leave all of the slurry/lees behind? And whatever settles after racking, that's the fine lees? And that's the lees I age on? It doesn't make sense to rack and bring everything along. This will be, if I do it, the first time trying sur lie

 

[AzOr]

This year when racking into glass from plastic fermenter, I’d dip the racking can occasionally to the bottom picking up a bit of gross lees.
So I’d pick up just a bit of gross lees. I’ve been aging all my batches this way since October.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I used D47 for a 5gal batch this year, and when I was degassing it was giving off exactly the aroma that Lallemand describes, so apparently it doesn't take very long at ~70°F.

Just wanted to report back, the final cider did have some interesting hints of ripe tropical fruit. I'm a little ambivalent about whether I liked it.

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

I did an accidental experiment in sur-lie; I was doing a couple of experimental batches of cranberry/tart cherry, and cranberry/pomegranate, using DV-10 as the yeast. Started them 9/7/19, and as usual the fermentation was really stretched out. I'd rack them occasionally when I started to see significant lees, and being loathe to waste a drop, I poured the lees off into a small bottle each time, and then on the next racking used the clear volume above the lees to top off.

I finally stabilized and treated them with sparkloid a couple weeks ago, and again being reluctant to waste anything, when I back-sweetened and bottled, I separately did this with the lees, filtered through a coffee filter.

I have to say, the one bottle I got off the lees was actually quite a bit better than either main ferment. It's hard to describe, but it just had a lot more depth and complexity. It was enough better that on the next batch, I'm going to deliberately do this sur-lie.

I can't say the temperature was well controlled, the only place in the house I've got to keep my fermenters is an interior closet, so the temperature is probably pretty consistently in the 65-70 degree range.