Creating Water Profiles For Every Brew - Is This Practical?

[Mahonroy]

Hey guys,
I live in Thornton, Colorado and the water here is terrible. The water comes from 2 different sources depending on the time of the year (Standley Lake which is decent, or the Platte River which is terribly contaminated... or sometimes is a mixture of both). Each source produces completely different water profiles.

I have been getting into the habit of using a scoop of ph 5.2, and 1 campden tablet for the mash water for every brew I do.

What really got me concerned was my wife and I were brewing the other day, and I had a pot of sparge water going on the kitchen stove (also using for adding volume during the boil if too much evaporates). This water simmering on the stove actually stunk the whole house up; it smelled like a swimming pool with a hint of rancidness. It really got me thinking "Man, am I really going to put this water into my beer?" The water quality and profiles change pretty drastically over the year, and its not practical to be able to tell what water profile is coming out of my tap at that given time.

In an effort to brew more consistently, and to have more control over the entire process, I am wondering if its feasible for me to buy jugs of distilled water from the store, add chemicals & minerals to it, pH it, and use this for all of my beer related water? I understand that it will probably add a little bit of cost to my beer but that is acceptable.

Have people been doing this? Is this a practical thing to do? I searched around a bit but couldn't find much information on it.

If it is practical, my goal would be to come up with a brewing neutral water recipe that I can make for any brew. If I want to take it to the next level, I could have water recipes for more specific styles of beer.

So an example would be- say for a 10 gallon batch of water:
* 10 gallons distilled water
* x amount of powdered calcium
* x amount of powdered zinc
* x amount of powdered magnesium
* x amount of sodium
* x amount of whatever else goes in water
* x amount of a ph-down solution (weather its ph 5.2, lactic acid, etc.)

What do you guys think?

 

[normonster]

That's what I'm doing every time now.

(5) 5 gallon jugs of RO, Brew'n Water and the chemicals. Totally doable and realistic and actually a fun part of designing a recipe.

 

[TheMadKing]

+1 that's what I do. As soon as I'm done with Beersmith, I open Bru'n water and make a water profile. It's just part of the brewtine now. I usually use 5 gallons of RO water plus a couple gallons of tap water, add my salts (some combination of gypsum, CaCl, NaCl, epsom salt, and always 0.13g of campden. In your case, I'd go all RO water and build on that. Sounds like you have some pretty nasty water.

You should also quit using 5.2 pH stabilizer, it's been discussed in a number of forums on here and shown to be snake oil. You're better off using lactic to bring pH down and baking soda to bring it up (this is very rare).

 

[Mahonroy]

Thanks for the replies!
I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind:

1. What is RO water?
2. Where are you getting the chemicals/minerals for this?
3. Do you have any water recipes that use said chemicals/minerals?

Thanks again!

 

[BamaPhil]

Thanks for the replies!
I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind:

1. What is RO water?
2. Where are you getting the chemicals/minerals for this?
3. Do you have any water recipes that use said chemicals/minerals?

Thanks again!

RO is reverse osmosis water. It's effectively a "blank slate" to build upon for your water profile. I get mine at Publix, they (and other grocers) have a machine out front that dispenses it for $.30/gallon.

I get my minerals at my homebrew shop. They're dirt cheap. All I've used so far is gypsum, calcium chloride, and baking soda (to bring the pH up in darker beers).

A "recipe" is hard to write down for water because the ideal water depends on your grain bill. Download the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. I've only been playing with water for my last 3 or 4 brews and it's the first thing that's made sense to me!

 

[Mexibilly]

+1 on RO. I made countless excellent extract batches with straight RO from Kroger.
I made some good light colored all grain batches with straight RO, then began adding CaCl, gypsum and phosphoric acid to tweak in my all grain.
Brun Water is very highly regarded as a water chemistry tool.
I use
http://.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
and hit my ph and flavor profile very closely.
I use my central Indiana LHBS and Northern Brewer to purchase my salts.
I also use beersmith and have several different proven water profiles set up.
If you're doing extract I'd recommend RO water with no additions, $.39/gal.
If all grain, keeping it simple, you can get some CaCl, gypsum and phosphoric and get pretty close with one of the available online calculators

 

[BrunDog]

That's what I'm doing every time now.

(5) 5 gallon jugs of RO, Brew'n Water and the chemicals. Totally doable and realistic and actually a fun part of designing a recipe.

Exactly.

 

[Oventoasted]

i use only RO water. i havent mixed any extra minerals in my brews since i started but im going to head to my local brew supply store this weekend and try to make a good profile for my future beers.

also i refuse to use my local tap water in anything i brew. i think they pump it from a damn cave that has a septic tank leaking into it. every glass i pour unfiltered comes out milky white and smells and tastes horrible.

 

[normonster]

i use only RO water. i havent mixed any extra minerals in my brews since i started but im going to head to my local brew supply store this weekend and try to make a good profile for my future beers.

also i refuse to use my local tap water in anything i brew. i think they pump it from a damn cave that has a septic tank leaking into it. every glass i pour unfiltered comes out milky white and smells and tastes horrible.

Your HBS will just want to sell you stuff, naturally. Good stuff, for sure, but unless they're willing to spend a lot of time with you, IMO, you're much better off just downloading Brew'n Water and reading all the notes, then picking a profile for your beer(s), adjusting with Gypsum, Cal Chloride, and whatever you need to add alkalinity if necessary, then buying those chemicals and doing it yourself. You'll want to create a new water profile for every major grainbill/style change and it's easy because the target profiles are built in and easy to hit with RO. I had to purchase the Gypsum and Cal Chloride from a HBS but the rest I got a wallmart for pennys.

You should download the free version of Brew'n Water right now and check out all the information in there. For me personally, it was more useful than reading the entire Water book (sorry AJ and Palmer), though I'm sure that book will be more helpful as I progress with water chemistry.

 

[Oventoasted]

Your HBS will just want to sell you stuff, naturally. Good stuff, for sure, but unless they're willing to spend a lot of time with you, you're much better off just downloading Brew'n Water and reading all the notes, then picking a profile for your beer(s), adjusting with Gypsum, Cal Chloride, and whatever you need to add alkalinity if necessary, then buying those chemicals and doing it your self. You'll want to create a new water profile for every major grainbill/style change and it's easy because the target profiles are built in and easy to hit with RO. I had to purchase the Gypsum and Cal Chloride from a HBS but the rest I got a wallmart for pennys.

You should download the free version of Brew'n Water right now and check out all the information in there. For me personally, it was more useful than reading the entire Water book (sorry AJ and Palmer), though I'm sure that book will be more helpful as I progress with water chemistry.

thanks for the tip, normonster! i will start reading and schooling myself on getting better water. the previous beers ive made using only RO water still tasted great but i can only imagine how much better it can be with well balanced water!

 

[normonster]

thanks for the tip, normonster! i will start reading and schooling myself on getting better water. the previous beers ive made using only RO water still tasted great but i can only imagine how much better it can be with well balanced water!

I was right there with you not long ago at all...using pure RO. I switched to tap+filter for a few though. Like you, my RO beers have been pretty good (I haven't done any dark beers, which is where you get a big problem with mash PH - I had an efficiency issue with the few IPAs I made though, due to mash PH I assume).

My first adjusted-water brew is about to go into a whiskey barrel and I'm excited.

After reading up and DLing that program I'm also nearly ashamed that I didn't do it sooner...nothing to it but a free download, a pippette, a few chemicals and a gram scale. There are a couple tips/trick I'm happy to explain in regard to BW, by the way. I'm not an expert by any means but I believe I have it figured out.

Cheers to incremental improvements!

 

[Gavin C]

Just some things that might be useful.

• RO water is reverse osmosis and is available for 39c/gallon from Walmart. Distilled is more expensive and not any more useful for brewing. Useful to have some on hand for calibration of instruments like pH meters and hydrometers.
  
• A cheap TDS meter can be used to verify the quality of the RO water in an instant.
  
• pH 5.2 is junk. Worse than useless. Discard. (Not opinion, established fact)
  
• Campden tablets are needed if using city water to eliminate chlorine and chloramines. ~2c cost to treat 10 gallons
  
• Campden tablets are not needed with RO water as RO water is devoid of chlorine and chloramine.
  
• Minerals you might find useful in building profiles to target.

CaCl2
CaSO4
NaCl
CaOH

• Typically you don't need to add Magnesium. That can be ignored but you can via the use of MgSO4
  
• Do not use chalk CaCO3. Useless unless you know how to add it correctly and there is really no need for it in any circumstance worth bothering about. DONT USE CHALK
  
• Mash pH can be adjusted down with lactic or phosphoric acid or via the use of acidulated malt.
  
• Sparge water can be acidified with same acid choices.
  
• Mash pH can be easily adjusted up by mashing thinner or adding CaOH (very rare that this will be needed)
  
• Read the stickies in the brew science forum. The first few posts in each covers a lot of useful info. Also read the common water errors thread.

Best of luck.

 

[Oventoasted]

yeah this is just a pool test stick but it says a lot about my tap water.

 

[Mahonroy]

+1 on RO. I made countless excellent extract batches with straight RO from Kroger.
I made some good light colored all grain batches with straight RO, then began adding CaCl, gypsum and phosphoric acid to tweak in my all grain.
Brun Water is very highly regarded as a water chemistry tool.
I use
http://.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
and hit my ph and flavor profile very closely.
I use my central Indiana LHBS and Northern Brewer to purchase my salts.
I also use beersmith and have several different proven water profiles set up.
If you're doing extract I'd recommend RO water with no additions, $.39/gal.
If all grain, keeping it simple, you can get some CaCl, gypsum and phosphoric and get pretty close with one of the available online calculators

I'm a bit confused how to use this...
I was expecting to be able to set the amount of volume to treat, enter 0 for starting since its RO or distilled water, select the style, and have it tell me what to add.

It seems it wants me to tell it how much minerals and salts to add? I'm confused.

Is there a calculator out there where I can select the beer style, and it tells me what I need to put in the water? (e.g. minerals & salts)

 

[Qhrumphf]

RO water and distilled water are chemically different (one has no minerals, or at least immeasurable, one has insignificant minerals but still present). I believe RO (without looking up the exact number) usually contains ~3-5% of the original ion content. So even with very high ion content in the original water, RO water is unlikely to have significant enough ions to make any measurable difference, and for our purposes can be functionally treated the same.

For the most part, you won't need much to treat your water beyond gypsum (calcium sulfate), calcium chloride, and acid (lactic or phosphoric are typical, acid malt being a base malt coated in lactic acid). In rare cases, you may need salt (sodium chloride, additive-free canning salt preferred, but at mimimum never an iodized salt), epsom salt (magnesium sulafate), or baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).

 

[Mexibilly]

I'm a bit confused how to use this...
I was expecting to be able to set the amount of volume to treat, enter 0 for starting since its RO or distilled water, select the style, and have it tell me what to add.

It seems it wants me to tell it how much minerals and salts to add? I'm confused.

Is there a calculator out there where I can select the beer style, and it tells me what I need to put in the water? (e.g. minerals & salts)

I generally add my water volume, source water at 0 for everything (I know RO isn't exactly 0 but it works) water profile target and grist info, then dial in the additions until everything is within range.
That said, straight RO has worked very well for light colored batches.
Experimenting and taking notes has helped me tremendously.

 

[mabrungard]

There is no such thing as a neutral water profile that fits all brews. You could probably divvy that into about 2 or 3 water profiles that would generally work, but not 1. The main thing is to get the alkalinity of the water in the correct, general range. But even with that improvement, it would be far from perfect. For many brewers, it would be good enough.

The fact is, that for best results, the water used for mashing and sparging are likely to be different and a little tweaking is probably desirable. If you are looking for a somewhat universal outlook on brewing water, review the Water Primer recommendations in the Brew Science forum to get you closer to acceptable than your tap water sounds.

 

[Mahonroy]

Thanks for the responses.
I understand I need to get gypsum (calcium sulfate), calcium chloride, and lactic acid. I also need sodium chloride and magnesium chloride.

How do I figure out how much of this to add to the water to get the desired water profile?

So trying out this link that Mexibilly provided: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
Water volume: 8 gallons
Source water: I type in 0 for everything since its going to be RO water or distilled water, and for now I am using 7ph until I can take a reading of the actual ph of the RO or distilled water.
I click the green "Update Water Calculations" button - nothing happens.
Water Target Profile: I select "Balanced Profile". I understand this is not best for everything, and I can select the appropriate one depending on the beer style.
I click the green "Update Water Calculations" button again, it now puts in some numbers into the chemicals that are needed. For example there is 80 mg/l in the CA+2 and 80 mg/l in the SO4 -2... so I'm assuming the first is calcium, second is sulfate... so I can just add 80mg of Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) into the water and take care of those 2 numbers? So in this case for 8 gallons, I need to add 2422.664 mg of gypsum to the water.

So I type in 80mg/l of gypsum and it only goes down by 18? Why is this?
I guess what I don't understand, is why is this calculator not filling in the Salt additions for me? Isn't this the purpose of this?

So NaCL is table salt, but the calculator says I need 25mg/l of Na, but 75mg/l of Cl... so how am I supposed to accommodate that? (e.g. if I add in 25mg/l of table salt, there is still 50mg/l of Cl thats missing). And to top it off, when I tell the calculator I'm going to add 25mg of table salt and update calculations, it tells me I still need 9.8mg/l of NA and 15.2mg/l of cl. This does not make sense to me.

Can you see my confusion? What is the process you are doing to make this work?

Thanks again for your help & advice!

 

[McKnuckle]

The Brewer's Friend water calculator does NOT fill in the salt additions for you. You fill them in yourself, and simply watch what happens to the source water. That way you learn how to do this by observing, instead of just pressing a magic button and accepting what the tool gives you every time. There are other water tools like that, and some prefer them. I don't. They tend to over-do it on the additions.

Try this again: Put in your 0's for the distilled water (leave the pH at 7 though), and remove (de-select) the target profile menu selection. At the top where it has fields for mash and sparge volumes, put in 1 gallon for total water, 1 gallon for mash water, and 0 for sparge. What we are testing here is how to add salts to raise the minerals in ONE GALLON. (Why? Because it's a simple basis for understanding. You'll put in your actual batch size later.)

Now with these two things in place, the total water volume and the source water set to 0's for distilled, scroll down to the Salt Additions. Make sure the Overall Water Report section is visible.

Put in 0.1g for gypsum (one tenth of a gram) and press Update Calculations. Notice what happens? Ca went up to 6.1 and SO4 went to 14.7. These are mg/l, also referred to as ppm. Now zero out the gypsum and put in 0.1g for CaCl. Press the button. Ca is now 7.2 and Cl is 12.7. SO4 went back to 0. This is because gypsum raises both Ca and SO4, and CaCl raises both Ca and Cl.

Try this again with Epsom, baking soda, etc. - and you'll see how tweaking the numbers changes the mineral concentration in a fairly predictable way (it's just math). I used 0.1g here because it's the lowest practical precision most of us will have. You need a small scale able to resolve to 0.1g to do this.

Now modify your total water to match your batch size. I highly recommend treating the total water as one and not separating it into mash and sparge. It's just easier, especially at the beginning (I always do it that way). Multiply the values of your salt additions to match, and the numbers should react accordingly.

Now the fun begins: Enter your grain bill into the Grist Info section. When you press Update Calculations, the minerals won't change, but the mash pH down in the Mash Report section sure will! And that's the number you want to keep between 5.3-5.6, preferably 5.4-5.5. If it's off, the general approach is to add baking soda to raise it, or add lactic acid to lower it.

Hope this at least gets you to the next level of understanding... I rely on the BF tool, and have used it successfully in over 40 batches so far. Whether the predicted pH literally matches reality or not, I've learned how to use it empirically, or perhaps practically, in that a predicted 5.4-5.5 mash pH range always has resulted in good efficiency and "correct" tasting beers.

 

[Kiknjville]

Couple things to add. I save my water containers and take them to the local Walmart grocery store to refill. There is a RO water dispenser in the front of the store and it's 25 cents per gallon. I've seen them at other grocery stores too. I just started using Brewers Friend for my recipes but I'm still playing with it to figure out how to determine salt additions. Brun Water works great.

 

[urg8rb8]

RO is reverse osmosis water. It's effectively a "blank slate" to build upon for your water profile. I get mine at Publix, they (and other grocers) have a machine out front that dispenses it for $.30/gallon.

I get my minerals at my homebrew shop. They're dirt cheap. All I've used so far is gypsum, calcium chloride, and baking soda (to bring the pH up in darker beers).

A "recipe" is hard to write down for water because the ideal water depends on your grain bill. Download the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. I've only been playing with water for my last 3 or 4 brews and it's the first thing that's made sense to me!

I get mine at Publix as well for .30/gallon. I have drastically improved my beers after switching to RO with salts.