Counter Flow Chiller Needs

[DocDriza]

Hey everyone,

I am looking into getting a counter flow chiller instead of using my immersion chiller. What I can't seem to get a clear answer on is whether or not a pump is required. If I want to use a CFC and not use a pump, what do I need to do with my setup in order for gravity to work in my favor? If a pump is required, how would I handle hop debris or other stuff that would come from the keggle I have? Are there issues with keeping the pump clean?

My setup today consists of a keggle with a copper pickup tube. I have a homemade double loop immersion wort chiller. The burner I have puts my shutoff valve 6-18" off the ground (I haven't measured it officially). Since I live in Dallas I have a pre chiller I'm trying to get working as well.

Let me know if there are any other details I need to explain.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ProblemChild]

Need a pump for counterflow - not 100% but is recommended.

I use a second chiller (homemade, 50' double coil) and a fish pump in a bucket. put the pump at the bottom of a bucket, put the coil over it, fill to the top of the coil with water then fill with ice. Plug in the pump and run the water at full blast. I use 2-liter bottles (tops cut off) to make ice blocks. takes about eight of those for 5 gallons. (Probably more like 10 in your area) can do 5 gallons in about 10 minutes

 

[schematix]

Why are you looking to ditch the IC?

 

[DocDriza]

Why are you looking to ditch the IC?

It takes forever to to chill. I brew at night after my daughter goes to bed. I don't want to be up until midnight or 1 am having to do cleanup and stuff. The thought I had was to buy a better IC, but then I realized of I'm going to buy something why not look into a CFC? I do have a concern for how to keep the CFC clean though.

 

[MX1]

What IC are you using?

And a CFC without a pump is possible, but it would take a well controlled gravity flow rate to get it done in a single pass.
I am thinking about ditching my Duda-Diesel plate chiller and going back to a IC for simplicity

 

[DocDriza]

Need a pump for counterflow - not 100% but is recommended.

I use a second chiller (homemade, 50' double coil) and a fish pump in a bucket. put the pump at the bottom of a bucket, put the coil over it, fill to the top of the coil with water then fill with ice. Plug in the pump and run the water at full blast. I use 2-liter bottles (tops cut off) to make ice blocks. takes about eight of those for 5 gallons. (Probably more like 10 in your area) can do 5 gallons in about 10 minutes

Are you using the pump for the wort, or is it gravity fed?

 

[DocDriza]

What IC are you using?

And a CFC without a pump is possible, but it would take a well controlled gravity flow rate to get it done in a single pass.
I am thinking about ditching my Duda-Diesel plate chiller and going back to a IC for simplicity

It's a homemade double loop IC.

 

[MX1]

It takes forever to to chill. I brew at night after my daughter goes to bed. I don't want to be up until midnight or 1 am having to do cleanup and stuff. The thought I had was to buy a better IC, but then I realized of I'm going to buy something why not look into a CFC? I do have a concern for how to keep the CFC clean though.

have you adjusted flow rates through the IC?
Tried stirring? I am assuming that you don't have a pump at all, so I guess whirl-pooling is not an option.

In Dallas - so the ground water gets pretty warm for sure - (Displaced Texan myself) - a pre-chiller is going to be a huge boost, Jaded Brewing has a small IC for about $20 that would be a great pre-chiller.

 

[str1p3s]

I started with a single pipe IC and then made a CFC. It worked ok but not as good as I had hoped and I ran cleaner through it forever after using it because you can't see in there to make sure you get all the potential nastiness out of there. THen you have to run water through it for a while to rinse. It was a bigger pain than it was worth. I used a pump, fwiw.

I switched from that to a DIY 3 pipe IC (like a JaDeD Hydra) and it works great and is much easier to clean.

 

[DocDriza]

have you adjusted flow rates through the IC?
Tried stirring? I am assuming that you don't have a pump at all, so I guess whirl-pooling is not an option.

In Dallas - so the ground water gets pretty warm for sure - (Displaced Texan myself) - a pre-chiller is going to be a huge boost, Jaded Brewing has a small IC for about $20 that would be a great pre-chiller.

How can I adjust the flow rate? This is a 3/8" copper tubing with plastic tubing on the outside secured by hose clamps. My hoses looked like they were about to explode when I hooked the garden hose up.

 

[MX1]

Well, the best way is a valve at the end of the flow chain, IC water out. This will keep the IC full of water, but it does create some back pressure if you close it off so you might have to play with the rate you supply the chiller.

After that it, it is just trial and error to get the flow dialed in. I have a "Water" distiller that I run and the condenser is just a 30 inch length of 1inch copper over 3/4 copper, it took me a few tries to get it to knock down the vapor so i could get a stream of "water" to flow from the still.

Also, not sure how you run your water, in from the top or bottom, but you can switch that around as well and see if it helps. IF you are not feeding the cold water in from the bottom, I would start there for sure, it is how I had the best luck when I used an IC years ago.

And you want the exit water to have some heat to it, not hot, but warm, or again, that is how mine worked best.
Good thing is, you can test all of this with just hot water.....

T

 

[ancientmariner52]

How can I adjust the flow rate? This is a 3/8" copper tubing with plastic tubing on the outside secured by hose clamps. My hoses looked like they were about to explode when I hooked the garden hose up.

You can buy fittings that will let you connect your garden hose directly to the 3/8 copper tube, with no low pressure plastic tubing used. If you are not comfortable picking out fittings, just take the IC to a good hardware store and tell them what you want to do. You can add a ball valve to the outlet end for flow control.

You're going to have to stir, or recirculate, or something, to move chilled wort away and allow hot wort to make contact. Natural circulation is'nt adequate, as you've discovered. I used to plunge mine up and down, before I knew to avoid oxidation.

If your tap water is too warm, you can use a small pond pump submerged in a cooler of ice water. Start with the tap water, then shift to ice water to finish.

 

[schematix]

It takes forever to to chill. I brew at night after my daughter goes to bed. I don't want to be up until midnight or 1 am having to do cleanup and stuff. The thought I had was to buy a better IC, but then I realized of I'm going to buy something why not look into a CFC? I do have a concern for how to keep the CFC clean though.

Look into the Jaded Hydra.

I won't rehash the advantages and disadvantages of each type other than to say the little bit of time you'll save chilling with a plate or CFC is more than offset by the cleaning efforts.

 

[passedpawn]

Hey everyone,

I am looking into getting a counter flow chiller instead of using my immersion chiller. What I can't seem to get a clear answer on is whether or not a pump is required. If I want to use a CFC and not use a pump, what do I need to do with my setup in order for gravity to work in my favor? If a pump is required, how would I handle hop debris or other stuff that would come from the keggle I have? Are there issues with keeping the pump clean?

My setup today consists of a keggle with a copper pickup tube. I have a homemade double loop immersion wort chiller. The burner I have puts my shutoff valve 6-18" off the ground (I haven't measured it officially). Since I live in Dallas I have a pre chiller I'm trying to get working as well.

Let me know if there are any other details I need to explain.

Thanks in advance.

You need a pump unless your chilling (tap) water is REALLY cold and you just trickle the wort through the CFC. It WILL cool in one pass that way.

Plate chillers really rock at chilling, but they clog and they are not cleanable. The JaDeD Cyclone is a cleanable CFC. You might consider it. Here's a review I did of it: Chiller Showdown: Blichmann Therminator vs JaDeD Brewing Cyclone

Like schematix posted above, there are some really good IC's out there. That might be your best bet. I can't use them since I have a large element right in the middle of my kettle.

 

[DocDriza]

You need a pump unless your chilling (tap) water is REALLY cold and you just trickle the wort through the CFC. It WILL cool in one pass that way.

Plate chillers really rock at chilling, but they clog and they are not cleanable. The JaDeD Cyclone is a cleanable CFC. You might consider it. Here's a review I did of it: Chiller Showdown: Blichmann Therminator vs JaDeD Brewing Cyclone

Like schematix posted above, there are some really good IC's out there. That might be your best bet. I can't use them since I have a large element right in the middle of my kettle.

A plate chiller was never in the conversation for me. I figured that kind of chiller would be the kinds that is hardest to keep clean. And hardest to deal with if clogged. It looks like I have some thinking to do. It looks like no matter what I'm going to have to spend a boat load of money.

 

[Diver_Alan]

I use an IC with a pump and it works great, at least in the winter. From June - September it works ok but only because I prechill the water going into the IC. This will get me down to about 80. I am in Oklahoma so my ground water is not much cooler than yours.

I find it quite easy to clean. After I rinse out my brew kettle I fill it with water heated to about 180. I then add Oxyclean and recirculate the water from the kettle to the pump to the IC and then back to the kettle. I just let this run for about half an hour as I enjoy an cold one. After circulating rinse water for a few minutes I drain the system and blow out any remaining water with compressed air. I do not run a separate sanitizer through the pump or IC. When I am ready to use next brew day I recirculate boiling wort for a few minutes to resanitize.

 

[MX1]

A plate chiller was never in the conversation for me. I figured that kind of chiller would be the kinds that is hardest to keep clean. And hardest to deal with if clogged. It looks like I have some thinking to do. It looks like no matter what I'm going to have to spend a boat load of money.

I really think a pre-chiller, a little flow control, stirring, and feeding the chiller from the bottom up is the way to start.
https://jadedbrewing.com/collections/frontpage/products/lil-pillar

I would run the IC without the using the pre-chiller until you get down about 100-120, then hit it with the ice water to drop it the rest of the way. I read a long time ago that if you put creamer in coffee and wait 5 min it is warmer than if you wait 5 then out the creamer in, has something to do with the temp difference....

 

[ProblemChild]

Are you using the pump for the wort, or is it gravity fed?

Using the pump to circulat the ice water around the first coil. I was not clear at first. It is a system with two chillers. One is a pre-chiller for the tap water. That is the system with the bucket and the pump to circulate the ice water around the coil. The second chiler is in the wort and it is used like normal.

 

[augiedoggy]

A plate chiller was never in the conversation for me. I figured that kind of chiller would be the kinds that is hardest to keep clean. And hardest to deal with if clogged. It looks like I have some thinking to do. It looks like no matter what I'm going to have to spend a boat load of money.

pumps start at like $20 ... something like
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

this is totally food grade and will be more than powerful enough... Ive been using them exclusively for my brewing system for almost 5 years now.
the 24v version of this pump currently pushes beer thru my wort plate chiller and up 4 ft into the top of my conicals and I still have to restrict flow in the summer.. I chill in one pass to my conicals, about 2 gallons per minute flow on average in the winter in the summer about 1 gpm sometimes less. I use a hop spider (sometimes 2) so zero issues with the duda plate chiller clogging. I bought and tried an inline 100 mesh stainless TC filter and tried it without the hop spider and it was a nightmare.

 

[schematix]

To me a plate chiller and CFC are basically the same thing. It's one more piece of equipment to clean, plus hoses. CFC is easier to clean, but to get it really clean requires a hot PBW recirc for a while. That's just more time, more effort, and more cost. An IC you just spray down and you're done.

 

[augiedoggy]

To me a plate chiller and CFC are basically the same thing. It's one more piece of equipment to clean, plus hoses. CFC is easier to clean, but to get it really clean requires a hot PBW recirc for a while. That's just more time, more effort, and more cost. An IC you just spray down and you're done.

between every couple brew sessions I just run a CIP pbw wash between my bk and MT through all of my plumbing, valves, pumps and rims and clean it all in one shot... my plate chiller stays free of debris. I do rinse everything with clean water directly after use as well... YMMV depending on system but I have no issues or regrets dumping my IC chiller...

I did just pick up this guy for my nano system but have yet to use it.
https://brewmagic.com/products/plate-pro-sanitary-wort-chiller/

I dont see how spraying down an IC chiller is any more effective at cleaning it than running water through a CFC or plate chiller? (I would think running water through a CFC would be more effective really)as long as a person keeps the solids out of them of course which is very doable.

 

[schematix]

I did just pick up this guy for my nano system but have yet to use it.
https://brewmagic.com/products/plate-pro-sanitary-wort-chiller/

That's be perfect for the HB market if they could get the price point down to about $299

I dont see how spraying down an IC chiller is any more effective at cleaning it than running water through a CFC or plate chiller? (I would think running water through a CFC would be more effective really)as long as a person keeps the solids out of them of course which is very doable.

Not about effective... about simple. Spray IC, set out to dry and you're done. No pumps, no chemicals. Just 2 minutes of spraying.

 

[MX1]

pumps start at like $20 ... something like
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

this is totally food grade and will be more than powerful enough... Ive been using them exclusively for my brewing system for almost 5 years now.
the 24v version of this pump currently pushes beer thru my wort plate chiller and up 4 ft into the top of my conicals and I still have to restrict flow in the summer.. I chill in one pass to my conicals, about 2 gallons per minute flow on average in the winter in the summer about 1 gpm sometimes less. I use a hop spider (sometimes 2) so zero issues with the duda plate chiller clogging. I bought and tried an inline 100 mesh stainless TC filter and tried it without the hop spider and it was a nightmare.

I want to go to that pump for my BIAB so I can get ride of the large chugger......
I would have to cam lock it, that would make it easy to remove and store, and at that price i could get 2 so when I walk past my rig and knock it off i have a replacment.

I am still going to a IC though, I HATE my plate chiller, but that is because it does not suit my style of brewing.

T

 

[augiedoggy]

Not about effective... about simple. Spray IC, set out to dry and you're done. No pumps, no chemicals. Just 2 minutes of spraying.

Ok but hooking a cfc chiller to water and spraying through it vs on it is just as simple and the friction and rinsing action would be just as good if not better so it seems to be a wash (Pun intended) as I see it..
To me a cfcs effectiveness and speed make up for any slight additional care in cleaning if needed or desired for "Piece of mind"..

now if we are comparing a system with no pumps at all... yeah its certainly a valid point... do you want to sit there oxidizing your wort around with a spoon for 20 minutes to bring it down to chilling temps with an IC or just deal with rinsing the pump clean right after use..

Then theres the whole LODO craze right now to consider causing homebrewers to dump thier copper brewing equipment ..

 

[MX1]

ok, lets talk about the "oxidizing"....

don't we do that right before we pitch anyway...or am I missing something?

 

[augiedoggy]

ok, lets talk about the "oxidizing"....

don't we do that right before we pitch anyway...or am I missing something?

yeah AFTER the wort is chilled.. otherwise you have "HSO" or hot side oxidation. as @ancientmariner52 hinted about above.

this helps
https://www.winning-homebrew.com/low-oxygen-brewing.html

 

[LittleRiver]

Have you considered recirculating your cooling water, using your existing IC?

I use an inexpensive water transfer pump to first recirculate from a 5gal bucket of water (the resulting hot water gets saved for use during cleanup). When the wort/water temp equalizes, I move the hoses to a cooler filled with ice water (I get 20lb of ice for a little more than $2 at a local grocery store). The resulting warm water in the cooler is saved for rinsing during cleanup.

I can chill a 5gal batch in 15 minutes or less. Sometimes I stir the wort a little, sometimes not.

There's no worries of clogs, no cleaning of hoses or pump, since you're only pumping clean water. There's no waste of water, since the cooling water gets re-used for post-brew cleanup of your kettle and other gear. Cleaning the IC is easy, it just gets dunked a few times in the now warm water that's in the cooler.

 

[DocDriza]

pumps start at like $20 ... something like
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

OMG. I may just have to pick up two of these. If they really do work for brewing as well as you say they do this is perfect. the question I still have is wort coming out of the CFC. would I use a pump to pull the wort out, or am I using gravity. Am I still using the pumps you mention to do that? Am I forever burdened to use a hop spider or hop bags to keep the pump and CFC clear of debris?

ok, lets talk about the "oxidizing"....

don't we do that right before we pitch anyway...or am I missing something?

I think the point augiedoggy is making is that with an IC you have to sit there with a spoon to oxidize the wort (which i disagree with) vs a CFC which will oxidize the wort for you.

The reason I disagree with having to use a spoon to oxidize is that when the wort goes from kettle to fermenter (in my case, because I use buckets) the wort is passing through a strainer before hitting the bucket. That is going to oxidize the wort.

This had been an interesting discussion. It's clear that ere are A TON of people that prefer IC's...I still may go with a CFC though.

 

[MX1]

I am not on the LoDo train just yet....
but that is another topic

 

[ProblemChild]

so then - use the pump between the kettle and the chiller. Push the wort through the chiller.

 

[ancientmariner52]

OMG. I may just have to pick up two of these. If they really do work for brewing as well as you say they do this is perfect. the question I still have is wort coming out of the CFC. would I use a pump to pull the wort out, or am I using gravity. Am I still using the pumps you mention to do that? Am I forever burdened to use a hop spider or hop bags to keep the pump and CFC clear of debris?



I think the point augiedoggy is making is that with an IC you have to sit there with a spoon to oxidize the wort (which i disagree with) vs a CFC which will oxidize the wort for you.

The reason I disagree with having to use a spoon to oxidize is that when the wort goes from kettle to fermenter (in my case, because I use buckets) the wort is passing through a strainer before hitting the bucket. That is going to oxidize the wort.

This had been an interesting discussion. It's clear that ere are A TON of people that prefer IC's...I still may go with a CFC though.

I think we should define some terms. Oxidizing is a bad thing, which harms the beer, especially for long term storage. Oxidation happens when you vigorously stir or otherwise whip air into HOT wort. Don't do that.

Oxygenation, or aeration, on the other hand, is a good thing. This happens when you stir, shake, splash, pump air or oxygen through CHILLED wort. This is beneficial for rapid yeast growth. You should do this. One time only, just before or just after you pitch the yeast.

Tl;dr: Oxygen + hot wort = bad, oxygen + cold wort + yeast = good.

It's much more complicated than this, but this is good enough to go on with.

 

[schematix]

Tl;dr: Oxygen + hot wort = bad, oxygen + cold wort + yeast = good.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Thanks, I fixed it above. Someday I'll learn to proofread carefully. But it is not this day.

 

[augiedoggy]

my point was also that when I had my IC chiller I had to manually keep stirring the wort or it didnt cool anything except the wort in direct contact by the coils... it seemed like a never ending process and I was blown away by how much more effective the plate chiller was when I got it.
at the end I do have to manually drain the last bit of wort stuck in my chiller and lines which I do with a measuring cup under the bottom camlock port on the chiller to catch it once I pop the camlock off.

 

[ancientmariner52]

my point was also that when I had my IC chiller I had to manually keep stirring the wort or it didnt cool anything except the wort in direct contact by the coils... it seemed like a never ending process and I was blown away by how much more effective the plate chiller was when I got it.
at the end I do have to manually drain the last bit of wort stuck in my chiller and lines which I do with a measuring cup under the bottom camlock port on the chiller to catch it once I pop the camlock off.

I use leftover sparge water to push the last of the wort out. Just pour it in the boil kettle and run the pump until the wort out of the CFC changes color.

Dang. I just realized I could connect the hose to the pump directly out of the HLT, and avoid disturbing the trub pile in the BK. I've done this dozens of times the hard way!

 

[schematix]

my point was also that when I had my IC chiller I had to manually keep stirring the wort or it didnt cool anything except the wort in direct contact by the coils... it seemed like a never ending process and I was blown away by how much more effective the plate chiller was when I got it.
at the end I do have to manually drain the last bit of wort stuck in my chiller and lines which I do with a measuring cup under the bottom camlock port on the chiller to catch it once I pop the camlock off.

I still recirculate the BK even with my IC. As you said, it's pretty much obligatory unless you want to constantly stir it.

I'm finding the same thing with my glycol+conical too. Gotta recirculate during the initial chill or it takes forever and stratifies.

 

[MX1]

I just account for the chiller loss......my time is worth more than the grain it cost to make up for the cup or so, lol

also, to be clear, my plate chiller will one pass chill, and if I dont keep an eye one it, I will have to wait for the wort to warm up to pitch....lastly, the 2nd or 3rd thing i do when I start clean-up is back flush the plate, and keep it back flush mode the entire time I clean, and the last thing I do is run a clean water rinse in the correct flow direction.

Still, my new rig will be set up to recirculate, and I think the IC will make me much happier.

T

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm finding the same thing with my glycol+conical too. Gotta recirculate during the initial chill or it takes forever and stratifies.

I actually dont have that issue so much. Probably because I use the discharge hose jacketing to cool the entire sidewalls of the conical on 3 of my four conicals vs the cooling coil? I have one ss brewtech with the coil but have only use it a couple of times as the coil is kind of a pain in the ass to clean especially with cooling lines going to it without quick disconnects.

 

[augiedoggy]

I just account for the chiller loss......my time is worth more than the grain it cost to make up for the cup or so, lol

also, to be clear, my plate chiller will one pass chill, and if I dont keep an eye one it, I will have to wait for the wort to warm up to pitch....lastly, the 2nd or 3rd thing i do when I start clean-up is back flush the plate, and keep it back flush mode the entire time I clean, and the last thing I do is run a clean water rinse in the correct flow direction.

Still, my new rig will be set up to recirculate, and I think the IC will make me much happier.

T

I must have a larger chiller, with the lines and chiller it almost fills my 4 cup measuring cup.. I also chill in one pas but use the pwm speed controller on my dc pump to dial in the temp I want.
The sparge water technique mentioned above by Ancientmariner52 sounds like it would work for me and I may give it a try.

 

[schematix]

I actually dont have that issue so much. Probably because I use the discharge hose jacketing to cool the entire sidewalls of the conical on 3 of my four conicals vs the cooling coil? I have one ss brewtech with the coil but have only use it a couple of times as the coil is kind of a pain in the ass to clean especially with cooling lines going to it without quick disconnects.

How big are your conicals? Do you have a pic?

I've got the Stout and the coil actually sits really low (it's about half in the cone). It's good in a sense that i bet you could do a 5 gallon batch in the 16.2 G fermenter, but the top doesn't cool quickly when you're doing a fast drop.