Could my well water affect my efficiency?

[Terek]

I posted this on another thread, but it never got answered, so thought i would start one for it.

has anyone actually had there water affect efficiency? I have recently moved, and started up brewing again after 6 months. My process has stayed the same, except i have a new mash tun, and i am using well water. I have been getting poor efficiency. Have done 4 brews so far. I will list eff below as proposed/actual

1065/1052 54%
1080/1070 64%
1079/1060 56%
1056/1052 64%

I have beersmith set to 75% eff, and i used to get around 78-80%

Im pretty sure its not the mash tun. Its built the same exact way my old one was, just wanted a nice, new, clean one. And i grind my grain to almost a powder. The only other thing i can think of is the water. I have yet to test it or anything, and am not putting in any additives. Could it be the water ph?

 

[Terek]

found an old report posted by someone that lives down the road from me.


Ward Laboratories, Inc.

PIERSON, STEVE Date Received: August 22 2005
3406 AIRPORT RD Date Reported: August 23 2005
NAMPA ID 83687

pH.................................................... 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est.......... 324.0
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm............ 0.54
Cations/Anions, me/L............................ 6.3 / 5.5 ppm lbs/Ac9"


Sodium, Na........................................ 25
Potassium, K........................................ 3


Calcium, Ca......................................... 63
Magnesium, Mg.................................... 24
Total Hardness, CaCO3........................ 258


Nitrate, NO3-N...................................... 2.4
Sulfate, SO4-S...................................... 7
Chloride, Cl........................................... 5

Carbonate, CO3.................................. < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3.............................. 289
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3......................... 237

 

[Gavin C]

While mineral content and ensuing mash pH does have an impact on efficiency it is far far less important than the other big players.

• Crush quality
• Mash Thickness
• Temperature accuracy
• Temperature stability
• Lautering efficacy/efficiency.

Get the other mash mechanics working and your numbers will improve.

Mash pH has a much greater impact of flavor of the resulting beer.


Unless you are using water that is a total outlier in terms of its mineral content and potability the mash pH is going to be in a range that will allow conversion to occur.

Efficiency number that low speak to other factors. (see above.)

ETA. Grinding to powder will affect your lautering efficiency dramatically.

Also in discussions on efficiency, acurate measures are a prerequisite. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=540642

 

[chudsonvt]

Are you using the same thermometer for you mash? If you are using a different thermometer could you have a large offset from what you think the temperature is, it could be causing issues. You could do an iodine test to see if you are getting full conversion. If your not, then fix that. If you are, then it is lautering efficiency.

 

[Terek]

• Crush quality
• Mash Thickness
• Temperature accuracy
• Temperature stability
• Lautering efficacy/efficiency.

only diff. from "back in the day" is this new tun losses about 2-3 degrees F for a 1 hour mash. And i am crushing a lot finer. Beer smith seems to have my mash thickness mabe a bit thicker than before

 

[Gavin C]

only diff. from "back in the day" is this new tun losses about 2-3 degrees F for a 1 hour mash. And i am crushing a lot finer. Beer smith seems to have my mash thickness mabe a bit thicker than before

You have the mash thicknes under your control. You're the brewer not beersmith. Why are you milling to flour and mashing thicker?

These are too obvious factors that will have a negative impact on lautering efficiency and resulting mash effiency if using a MT with manifold.

 

[Terek]

Are you using the same thermometer for you mash? If you are using a different thermometer could you have a large offset from what you think the temperature is, it could be causing issues. You could do an iodine test to see if you are getting full conversion. If your not, then fix that. If you are, then it is lautering efficiency.

I use a thermometer for everything from work that is for measuring temp when adjusting freeon lines, so its dead nuts accurate. I do seem to have an increased amount of stuck sparges with the new set up, so its got to be lautering eff. Will have to go back to the drawing board i guess

 

[Terek]

Why are you milling to flour and mashing thicker?

These are too obvious factors that will have a negative impact on lautering efficiency and resulting mash effiency if using a MT with manifold.

i have been told by many people that a real fine crush improves eff. I have just started using my own mill on these last 4 batches, instead of from the LHBS. I guess my info is flawed

 

[doug293cz]

I use a thermometer for everything from work that is for measuring temp when adjusting freeon lines, so its dead nuts accurate. I do seem to have an increased amount of stuck sparges with the new set up, so its got to be lautering eff. Will have to go back to the drawing board i guess

Are you batch sparging or fly sparging? Do you take accurate measurements of water and wort volumes (strike, sparge, first runnings, pre-boil)? Do you take first runnings and pre-boil SG measurements? If you batch sparge, and have the required measurements, it's possible to back calculate your actual conversion and lauter efficiencies with a reasonable degree of accuracy. This can then guide you on where the problem(s) originate, so you can focus on the offending portion of the process.

Brew on

 

[chickypad]

As has been mentioned factors other than pH probably play much bigger roles in efficiency, however that is very alkaline water you have. Are you acidifying your mash? Have you had any other problems like astringency? I'd do something about that water for sure.

 

[Gavin C]

i have been told by many people that a real fine crush improves eff. I have just started using my own mill on these last 4 batches, instead of from the LHBS. I guess my info is flawed

Crushing as fine a possible without it resulting in lautering issues like a stuck sparge is a good idea and is the biggest factor (arguably) in improving efficiency and consistency.

Crushing to flour with a braid/falsebottom/manifold will for sure lead to a massively reduced lautering efficiency with mash efficiency following suit.

I crush very fine (not to flour) but my crush would be il-suited for your type of mash-tun. I have an unblockable filter (A bag) in my mash-tun that works well with a fine crush.

 

[Terek]

Are you batch sparging or fly sparging? Do you take accurate measurements of water and wort volumes (strike, sparge, first runnings, pre-boil)? Do you take first runnings and pre-boil SG measurements? If you batch sparge, and have the required measurements, it's possible to back calculate your actual conversion and lauter efficiencies with a reasonable degree of accuracy. This can then guide you on where the problem(s) originate, so you can focus on the offending portion of the process.

Brew on

I will list my process as detailed as i can, so mabe someone can pick out my mistake. Like i said, my old set up gave me 80%+

i fly sparge.

I do use the recommended volumes, and use very accurate measurements, except for sparge volumes. I typically will keep an inch of water above my grain bed all the way till i get my pre boil volume. I have read that some people will drain there tun to get up to the pre boil volume, but i never tried.

My SG has been low on all 4 brews.

Sparges are getting stuck more often, due to a finer crush than i am used to, so i have to un stick them often. Seems this has caused a lot more grain material in my boil kettle prior to boil.

I typically take 45-60 min. to fly sparge, before i would go for 30. A buddy said i need to fly longer and slower.

I keep a probe in the tun to make sure the temp is above 170 threw out the sparge. Just started doing that.

I do loose a few degrees during mash hour. 2-3

I did take a gravity reading of the runnings on one brew right after i got my pre boil volume. it was 1.025

I always sparge till i get my pre boil volume, and i have gotten my "into fermenter" volume perfect, except one that was 54%, i got an extra half gal. Checked that just now on beer smith, and it changed to 64%

 

[Gavin C]

I use a thermometer for everything from work that is for measuring temp when adjusting freeon lines, so its dead nuts accurate. I do seem to have an increased amount of stuck sparges with the new set up, so its got to be lautering eff. Will have to go back to the drawing board i guess

Never a bad idea to calibrate a thermometer regardless of its perceived quality. Here's a good way to do that.

You have been getting stuck sparges, grinding to flour and mash thicker. There is your answer.

• Crush less fine
• Mash thinner

Best of luck going forward mate.

 

[Terek]

As has been mentioned factors other than pH probably play much bigger roles in efficiency, however that is very alkaline water you have. Are you acidifying your mash? Have you had any other problems like astringency? I'd do something about that water for sure.

i have not added anything as of yet, and just found this report a bit ago. I have herd 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Suggest citric acid?

 

[chickypad]

I can't really speak to it because I have very low alkalinity in my water so all I usually need is a little acid malt. I think phosphoric acid or lactic acid is what most folks use. If you want to do a quick trial you could try a batch with RO water and some calcium chloride per the instructions in the water primer.

 

[Terek]

Never a bad idea to calibrate a thermometer regardless of its perceived quality. Here's a good way to do that.

You have been getting stuck sparges, grinding to flour and mash thicker. There is your answer.

• Crush less fine
• Mash thinner

Best of luck going forward mate.

Thanks for all the info. I got a lot to look at, and have ideas a brewing. I might have to go home and brew tonight, just to see if i can fix the multiple problems yall have let me know about. Love this community. Always so much help, even when i think i got it all under control

 

[doug293cz]

i have not added anything as of yet, and just found this report a bit ago. I have herd 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Suggest citric acid?

Most people go with lactic or phosphoric acid. I think citric acid has a lower flavor threshold than either of those. You can also use acidulated malt, which just adds lactic acid (but is more "natural.") If you have to use a lot of acid, then phosphoric might be the better choice, as you can add more of that without surpassing the taste threshold.

Brew on

 

[Gavin C]

i have not added anything as of yet, and just found this report a bit ago. I have herd 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Suggest citric acid?

5.2 magic powder is worse than useless. It can impact flavor and does not do what it purports to. Total junk. I fell victim to that nonsense myself when I started brewing. I've since done some homework.

I would suggest getting your own report or using RO water with that water report as is. It's hard water. At the very least you'd want to cut it with RO water 50/50. The primer in the brew science thread is a good starting point. (And a good finishing point for many)

If you want to start adjusting/building your water and targeting specific mineral profiles and mash pH your task will be easier with 100% RO water then using your hard water of unknown ionic values.

Anyway. Information overload, sorry. Let us know how the brew goes. Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

I will list my process as detailed as i can, so mabe someone can pick out my mistake. Like i said, my old set up gave me 80%+

i fly sparge.

I do use the recommended volumes, and use very accurate measurements, except for sparge volumes. I typically will keep an inch of water above my grain bed all the way till i get my pre boil volume. I have read that some people will drain there tun to get up to the pre boil volume, but i never tried.

My SG has been low on all 4 brews.

Sparges are getting stuck more often, due to a finer crush than i am used to, so i have to un stick them often. Seems this has caused a lot more grain material in my boil kettle prior to boil.

I typically take 45-60 min. to fly sparge, before i would go for 30. A buddy said i need to fly longer and slower.

I keep a probe in the tun to make sure the temp is above 170 threw out the sparge. Just started doing that.

I do loose a few degrees during mash hour. 2-3

I did take a gravity reading of the runnings on one brew right after i got my pre boil volume. it was 1.025

I always sparge till i get my pre boil volume, and i have gotten my "into fermenter" volume perfect, except one that was 54%, i got an extra half gal. Checked that just now on beer smith, and it changed to 64%

For fly sparging it is not possible to model the lauter efficiency, so it is not possible to separate the mash efficiency into the conversion and lauter components, unless you take a mash wort SG reading before any sparge water is added, or an SG reading of the first wort out of the MLT during lautering (they should be the same.) By knowing the SG of the wort at the end of the mash, and the initial water to grain ratio, it is possible to determine the conversion efficiency directly. Kai Troester has published a table of mash SG vs. mash thickness for 100% conversion. Look up the appropriate value in the table for your mash, and then your conversion efficiency is then:

Conversion_Efficiency = 100 * Actual_SG / Table_SG​

Brew on

 

[tootal]

Unless you're doing a BIAB crushing your malt really fine destroys the husk and will stick your mash as you have described. So I agree, open up your malt mill. Professional breweries use talcum powder like mill settings but they have multi roller mills and the first pass is at .069". It breaks open the malt and exposed the endowsperm without trashing the husk. The husk are blown around the final rollers where the endowsperm is crushed to talcum. Also professional mash tuns and lauter tuns all have rakes that will occasionally turn and keep the wort flowing. You have none of that so even though the theory of a fine crush is more efficient, unless you have the proper equipment to deal with it, it won't work for you.

As far as water, we use well water too and it's around 7.5 ph. We use phosphoric acid to get it under 6.5 if using dark malts and under 6 for light malts. This will get us somewhere between 5.2 and 5.5 in the mash. We also treat our sparge water to around 5.3 to keep down the tannins.

If you brew some light lagers it will help determine any off flavors from your system/procedures/water.

 

[Terek]

finally brewed this morning. a medium hopped porter. I crushed a bit more course nd upped my ratio to 1.75 liters/lb instead of 1.26 liters/lb. I also did a "mash out" with a gallon of boiling water. I also changed my manifold. was copper with holes drilled in it. I re made it with slits in it instead. No stuck sparge at all. was one point low on my pre boil gravity, and my OG was one point high. End runnings were at 1.012. Got exactly 5 gal into ferm. 81% eff.
I also did a few bru'n water adjustments. Added 5 ml lactic to bring mash ph down to 5.4. Runoff ph was 5.8
seems i am back to normal. thanks everyone for the tips.