Cost of all-grain brewing vs MrBeer vs buying beer at the store

[NickTheGreat]

I had a turkey fryer and bottled (which I saved) and my costs were low. I bought an immersion chiller. Then I bought another pot. Then kegs. Then CO2 manifolds. Then CO2 tanks. Then . . .

But if you did extract and bottled I think you could keep the cost pretty dang low.

 

[Homercidal]

Nylon bag for BIAB
Some plastic hose
Siphon tube
Fermenation bucket (food grade bucket)
Bottles
Caps
Sanitizer
Bottling wand
airlock
Pot big enough to make whatever sized batch you want to make

 

[TallDan]

Another quick thought on the subject:

Think of hombrewing just like homecooking. To cook at home, effectively everyone has already built a home kitchen and spent a good amount of money on pots, pans, stove, oven, microwave, etc.. Some people have spent tens of thousands of dollars on fancy gourmet kitchens and expensive serving utensils. Others have a small functional kitchen with the basics. Even a cheap stove, pans and plates will cost you more than eating fast food for a month, and that doesn't count what you'd spend on ingredients and the time spent cooking!

If you cook for one person and really do the numbers, i'll bet you'll find out that it doesn't make sense buy cookware and spend your time cooking your own meals, especially if you had to buy your kitchen and didn't already have one. For two people it's probably in favor of home cooking, and for a family of five it's much cheaper to cook, especially if you buy food in bulk (sound familiar?).

The difference is, how many of us have five beer drinkers at home?

 

[Upthewazzu]

Pick up this 17 gal Coleman cooler from Walmart and then convert to mashtun. It's cheaper than most small coolers. As a side effect, you don't have to buy a bigger tun when you want to do a 10 gal batch!

 

[AnOldUR]

The difference is, how many of us have five beer drinkers at home?

Do neighbors count? I’ve been supplying the guy across the street with beer. He brings me firewood to heat my house.




edit:
Probably shouldn't be saying that out loud. Sounds illegal.

 

[Jayhem]

If you cook for one person and really do the numbers, i'll bet you'll find out that it doesn't make sense buy cookware and spend your time cooking your own meals, especially if you had to buy your kitchen and didn't already have one. For two people it's probably in favor of home cooking, and for a family of five it's much cheaper to cook, especially if you buy food in bulk (sound familiar?).

The difference is, how many of us have five beer drinkers at home?

You are not gonna be able to argue that cooking at home doesn't save money, unless you only cook pasta, burgers and sandwiches!

I can cook a NICE steak dinner for 2 with potato, salad, iced tea and home brew and total cost for the ingredients is around $10 for the meal. A steak dinner for 2 at a nice resturant with a couple pints of premium beer + tax and tip? Easily $60-80. Heck, you can't even get a fast food meal these days for under $6 and I buy steak at $4/lb from my beef farming inlaws.

 

[violinguy]

Also, based on my calculations, home brewing makes way more economic sense with 5g batches than with 1g. I have only brewed 2 1g batches so far, but I've done some math. The average recipe kit for a 1g batch is about $10-12, probably closer to $12 than $10. For me, I would spend about $9-10 per six-pack for good beer (Fat Tire, Sweetwater etc). If I only get 8-9 bottles per 1g batch, the numbers don't work.

Seems to me that 5g recipe kits run about $30-ish and for 50 or so bottles, that's a much better bargain. Plus, if you buy your ingredients in bulk like the other posters have done, the bargain gets better.

VG

 

[SteakW]

For most of us, homebrewing is a hobby, not a way to save money.

True. Many of us home brewers did start off seeking to save money and found it was just as enjoyable to make beer as it was to drink it. And then you start to brew as often as you can.

 

[TallDan]

You are not gonna be able to argue that cooking at home doesn't save money, unless you only cook pasta, burgers and sandwiches!

I can cook a NICE steak dinner for 2 with potato, salad, iced tea and home brew and total cost for the ingredients is around $10 for the meal. A steak dinner for 2 at a nice resturant with a couple pints of premium beer + tax and tip? Easily $60-80. Heck, you can't even get a fast food meal these days for under $6 and I buy steak at $4/lb from my beef farming inlaws.

Actually, steak is typically a meal that most restaurants have lower margains on than chicken and pasta. Also, you wouldn't eat every meal at a full service restaurant if you ate out all the time. I didn't.

The point I was making is still valid though. To make that steak dinner, you easily have thousands of dollars of equipment. Oven, stove, grill, plates, silverware, pots, pans, plus all of your home-brewing equipment to make the beer. Ball park, it's got to be at least $2k worth of things that you used to make that meal. You saved $50 by making it at home instead of going out. You need to do that 40 times to pay for the equipment assuming your time is worth nothing. If you pay yourself $15/hr and it takes you an hour to prepare the meal, you only save $35 each time and you need to do it 58 times.

Any home brewery will pay for itself in 40-58 batches.

 

[Jayhem]

Actually, steak is typically a meal that most restaurants have lower margains on than chicken and pasta. Also, you wouldn't eat every meal at a full service restaurant if you ate out all the time. I didn't.

The point I was making is still valid though. To make that steak dinner, you easily have thousands of dollars of equipment. Oven, stove, grill, plates, silverware, pots, pans, plus all of your home-brewing equipment to make the beer. Ball park, it's got to be at least $2k worth of things that you used to make that meal. You saved $50 by making it at home instead of going out. You need to do that 40 times to pay for the equipment assuming your time is worth nothing. If you pay yourself $15/hr and it takes you an hour to prepare the meal, you only save $35 each time and you need to do it 58 times.

Any home brewery will pay for itself in 40-58 batches.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you were trying to make. It's just that you can't sell a home without a kitchen and most homes come with the kitchen appliances in place already so really you only need pots/pans, etc to start cooking your own mills. We don't have to drink beer every day but we do have to eat so home cooking is a much faster savings than homebrewing. My wife and I eat well at home for about $50/week and only eat sandwiches as a meal maybe 3 lunches a week, the rest is soups, gumbo, chili, steak, chicken, pork, veggies, salads, pastas, etc.

 

[TallDan]

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you were trying to make. It's just that you can't sell a home without a kitchen and most homes come with the kitchen appliances in place already so really you only need pots/pans, etc to start cooking your own mills. We don't have to drink beer every day but we do have to eat so home cooking is a much faster savings than homebrewing. My wife and I eat well at home for about $40/week and only eat sandwiches as a meal maybe 3 lunches a week, the rest is soups, gumbo, chili, steak, chicken, pork, veggies, salads, pastas, etc.

Yep, I'm not trying to talk anyone into not cooking again. I'm also not trying to talk anyone out of homebrewing. I'm just pointing out that many people ignore the equipment costs and time spent making their own meals, just like they ignore equipment costs and time spent making their own beer. What I'm pointing out is that economics of the two are really pretty similar. In the long run, with either one you can save a lot of money if that's what you're trying to do. You can also blow a lot of money on toys you don't need for either one in the short term to the point where you'd be better off eating out and buying commercial beer for years!

 

[fearwig]

We don't have to drink beer every day

Totally confused by this part.

But no I agree, there is definitely some parallel, and I think you're pretty safe leaving the stove, fridge, etc. out of the cooking "costs". You can get started cooking at home--well--for $100-150 or so, if you don't get absolute crap. One good chef's knife ($15-20 if you have an Ikea), one good pan, one good stock pot. Now you could always get that $2000 copper gear from Williams Sonoma (the RIMS/HERMS and all that), or the $150 KitchenAid, etc., etc., but you can do a fine job without.

I think my beer hobby needs to ultimately save me money or at least break even, time input aside, or I'm a) going to feel like a bit of a dick about putting my family through an unreasonable expense and b) they're going to feel the same. That said, it's not like I work three jobs, so not every hour of my day is exactly convertible to money, so I don't factor that into my loss or savings. But maybe when I have brewed enough to justify it, and brew enough scale to justify it, I'll shell out for more things. But I will be doing more making than buying.

 

[dzlater]

I did my first all grain, using my bottling bucket with a grain bags as a mash tun.
And a turkey fryer on sale for $45.

 

[norsk]

Probably not a good idea to get into home brewing to save money... though once you get your rig set up, you can make better beer cheaper than you can buy it. We tend to make a lot of Belgians and bigger IPAs that can cost upwards of $10.00 or more a bottle... for about $1.00 a bottle. Savings add up quick at that rate...

Like most hobbies, you can spend as much or as little on home brewing as you desire... and still end up with great beer. I went a little crazy after about 6 mo. in and just had to acquire the latest and greatest brewing equipment. Nice brewing rig, pumps, chilled conical... the works. It was nice having the equipment, but I really would have rather spent that money on worthier goals. So I sold most of it (kept the chilled conical) and went back to the basics with ice chest and 15 gal kettle. Beer still comes out the same... Just remember to keep it fun and enjoyable for you and your family, having beer come out is an extra bonus...

 

[CKing]

After my initial 1 time purchases for all grain brewing equipment, I spend ~$20-$30 for a 5 gallon batch of beer; grain, hops and yeast included.

+1 for buying bulk as typical LHBS' around here charge $1.50 / lb. of grain, $2-$4 / oz. hops and dry yeast is comparable. For bulk, I can get a 50 lb. bag of Pale 2-row $42.50 ($0.85/lb). There is definitely a cost saving, IMHO for all grain vs any other style (extract, kits). I also belong to a beer coop so I reuse our 22oz bottles for my batches.

So on average, let's say an average recipe is $25 (yeast and hops included). I get ~25x22oz bottles from my batches (roughly 2 cases of beer). That basically equates to $1 per 22 oz bottle.

Hope this helps.

About the same for me as well. Typical 5%-7% abv batch of beer will cost me $20-$30 for grains, hops, and yeast.
I ferment 5.5 gallon batches resulting in at least 5 gallons of finished bottled beer.
So on average $25 / 5 gal = $5 per gallon = $0.04 per ounce.

In oHIo the average six pack of craft beer is typically in the $9-$10 range these days so that's $0.13 - $0.14 per ounce of store bought standard ale.

 

[zzzman74]

I'm not looking to save money with home brewing. I don't mind spending 8 hours on a brew day. I don't mind spending hours in the forums. I don't mind building a small brewery area in my basement and buying $1000+ worth of materials to do so.

But somehow, I worried that I might do all that and enjoy myself in the process, but come to find out that after all the time and expense I had created a $4 bottle of beer that I could have bought at the corner store for $2. Somehow THAT would break my spirit. Lol.

But the idea of making a $.50-$1 beer that TASTES like a fancy craft beer and telling my buddies that the on,y place they can get it is at MY place.....now THAT is absolutely perfect.

I'm in. Thanks guys.

 

[BigFloyd]

I've made some basic MrBeer kits and have been pleased with the flavor of the beer but not the low alcohol content. MrBeer has very recently launched some "advanced" recipes that use more malt extract and have higher end alcohol content. But the cost of those kits is significantly more. I wonder if anyone's tried these "ADVANCED RECIPES"? Any thoughts about quality, value, etc? Does this indicate MrBeer trying to become a more legitimate home brew kit?

They've had the deluxe refills around for quite some time which contain more malt/hops in the can of HME. The standard ones (the kind included with the kits) are generally considered to be much too light and watery which is why it's pretty common for folks to steep some grains, add 1/2 lb of DME and some hops to make something decently tasty out of a MB kit.

The LBK is a decent little fermenter (I will sometimes use mine for an experimental batch), but unless and until MB changes their pathetic written instructions (based more on marketing than good brewing practices), it will be hard to consider them a quality home brew kit. To be fair, there are also lots of 5-gallon kits whose instruction sheets are pretty bad, but none as loaded with bad info as MB.

 

[TallDan]

I'm not looking to save money with home brewing. I don't mind spending 8 hours on a brew day. I don't mind spending hours in the forums. I don't mind building a small brewery area in my basement and buying $1000+ worth of materials to do so.

But somehow, I worried that I might do all that and enjoy myself in the process, but come to find out that after all the time and expense I had created a $4 bottle of beer that I could have bought at the corner store for $2. Somehow THAT would break my spirit. Lol.

But the idea of making a $.50-$1 beer that TASTES like a fancy craft beer and telling my buddies that the on,y place they can get it is at MY place.....now THAT is absolutely perfect.

I'm in. Thanks guys.

I definitely had my gut check moments shelling out the cash for equipment, but I'm at the point now that I'm very glad I did and I'm considering some more equipment. Sounds like you have about the same attitude about it as I do, so I'll bet within 6 months you'll be very happily brewing some nice all grain batches that you love to drink and share. Have fun!

 

[zzzman74]

Ok, so everyone says MrBeer is just a novelty toy. I've made a few batches and other than the low alcohol content, I like the taste of the beer. Based on helpful advice here, my wife and I are planning to upgrade our hobby to extract or all grain brewing.

My question is: what differences should we expect?

 

[zzzman74]

So I am still using a MR. Beer to Ferment. If you want to keep using Extracts, buy a coopers extract can. I am brewing an Irish Stout with 2# of LME. Split it in half. I spent $28 for the Coopers can, 2# of LME, and S-04. Each batch should gets me 16 pints. So 32 pints total for $28. It is cheaper to buy the bigger cans and split them than it is to buy the Mr.Beer kits. I have a digital ounce scale in my kitchen so I split it all by weight.

This is much cheaper than buying by the case, and cheaper than using Mr. Beer kits. I have no first hand knowledge about doing AG. But I don't think it would be worth the time in the long run if you are only doing a 2.5gal batch. (unless you were trying new recipes) I will eventually get to AG when I have the facilities to handle it. I live in a small apartment, with a very small kitchen that has an electric stove.

Just my $0.02

Kevron... Or anyone else....how do you go about brewing like this? This method might be a nice transition for us between MrBeer and all-out all-grain. Know what I mean? How do I learn how to do what you're doing?

 

[jtratcliff]

If you want to test drive the savings, Do a 2.5 gal AG BIAB one day. You could even make it a SMaSH to simplify things if you want but there are plenty of simple recipes.

Find a recipe on here for a 5 gal. batch (I recommend BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde or Yooper's Haus Ale for tasty simple recipes to start with). Cut all ingredients in half, make a list then go to the LHBS and price it out. Grain, hops, yeast. Also look at online shops.
MoreBeer grain prices beat my LHBS as long as I buy $50 worth at a time.

Now consider that you might need a bigger pot to do full volume BIAB. 2.5 gal. post boil might need 4+ gal of starting water. Absorption by the grain, boil off, and kettle losses to trub, etc. So say a 5-6 gal. pot. You can get by with 2 smaller pots if you dunk sparge instead of full volume. But an aluminum kettle can be had cheaply (I just scored a 15 gal aluminum tamale steamer for $25 from a local grocery chain)

While at the LHBS get a hydrometer and thermometer.

Pick up a paint strainer strainer bag from the hardware store and you are ready to brew stove-top AG BIAB. Ferment in your Mr Beer LBK. Look for the Stickied thread about it.

After 5-6 Mr. Beer batches, I did one single 5gal full boil extract batch before going straight to AG BIAB.

This will give you an idea if AG is right for you without too much initial outlay of $$.

Then consider that you can get the grain & hops about half the price of the LHBS if you are someplace where you can buy grain by the 50-55lb sack and hops by the lb or get in on group buys (at least that's the case for my LHBS prices).

Or you can also do the above as an extract batch (which will be more expensive than AG but closer to what you're used to doing from a Mr. Beer kit), where you buy the LME/DME, any steeping grains, hops, and yeast. This should still be cheaper than a Mr. Beer kit.

 

[MrHadack]

You've been posting quite a bit today about making the move up from Mr. Beer. Let me see if I can help you get an understanding of whether or not this is right for you, and if so, what path you should take.

First, in one thread, you said you and your wife enjoy the process of brewing. I've never used Mr. Beer before, but had similar kits like it when I started 20 years ago. If my understanding is correct, Mr. Beer is essentially a process where you heat water, mix in a canister of hopped dry extract, boil, cool, add yeast, and wait.

Is the beer good? Yeah, I guess... it's beer. But what did you actually do? Sometimes I like drawing the comparison to making brownies from scratch (all grain brewing) and using a boxed mix (Mr. Beer). With the latter you just empty the box into a bowl, toss in an egg and some water, mix it up, and put it in the oven. Did you make brownies, or did you just assemble someone else's brownies?

When you bake from scratch, it takes some knowledge of the chemistry involved, designing a recipe, putting your own signature on it. Those are your brownies. You made them, not just assembled them from parts someone gave you.

So it depends what your motivation is for brewing. If you like the process, and want to get more involved and have more input into how a recipe is designed and turns out in the end, then partial grain, brew-in-a-bag, or all grain might be right for you.

Does that make any sense?

 

[MrHadack]

Oh, and to answer your question in the shortest way possible about what to expect:

More fun, more beer, better quality, and a fierce sense of pride about your accomplishments.

 

[Clonefan94]

The big difference in going from Mr. Beer to regular extract brewing, is going to be doing a 60 minute boil. Where you are adding your hops based on the recipe.

The other big thing is the formulation of the recipe. Once you get into steeping grains, doing a partial mash or especially going all-grain, you'll be amazed at the tweaks you can do to a beer to really make it your own. Heck just steeping grains alone and adding that to the wort, imo, makes a huge difference in the final product.

Personally, I think you'll find you enjoy it even more.

 

[monsteroyd]

I ferment in Mr Beer little brown kegs, so I still do 2.25 gal batches. I boil a gallon of water with 1 lb of extract and do my hop boils in an 8 qt pot on a little heat plate. I don't like bitter and am not making IPA's etc, so I can get by with a 20 min (or less sometime) boils of an once of 5%AA hops. I then cool the wort in a water/ice bath in the sink, and pour that over 1 gallon of cold water in the LBK. Then I top up if needed to 8.5 qts. Works great for me, and I make pretty good beer, too. I have added steeped specialty grains and done small partial mashes also with this set up.

I do extract because of time constraints, I rarely have time for a 4-6 hour brew day, and really don't have the ability to boil much more than a gallon of wort. It works for me, and like I said I get pretty good beer out of it.

When you go all-grain, you can make even more customized beer cause you have a much wider selection of malt to choose from, however you have to add in the mashing effort and time. So even though the ultimate in this hobby is all grain without a doubt, you can still have fun and experiment with hops and yeast doing extract.

Heck I did 50-some batches of mr beer and brew demon hopped malt extract before I started doing hop boils with extracts. And those were all pretty good beers.

So I guess I am progressing to all grain, but I am not ready to make that switch yet. My advice is to try a partial mash with a Mr Beer Patriot 'Lager' HME (just a good base) to start out and see if you are ready to head down that road. Try a different yeast with a Mr Beer HME. There are things you can do even with a MR Beer HME that will teach you tons.

Monty

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Multiple similar threads by same OP merged.

 

[RukusDM]

Everyone here brings good points regarding making beer vs purchasing. If you want to save money and like beer you probably need to buy it. You may save a few dollars making beer but it is not substantial.

The more important thing is you can make beer that fits your taste. You can make a version of your own beer. More importantly you are doing something together as you mentioned that you 2 do.

There is always a great feeling when you drink a good beer that you worked so hard to produce. I don't think you can put a dollar value on that especially when you are only talking a few dollars a case difference.

 

[monsteroyd]

I do not brew at home to save money. I do it to make beer that tastes just like I want it, and it also happens to be way better beer than BMC, and as good as the most expensive craft beer I can buy.

Basically for me it isn't the money, it's the beer. I really like my beer, and the people I give it to like it as well. And you can't buy my beer anywhere.

Monty

 

[kevron]

What I am saying is buy one of the big cans of Coopers or Muntons brand. Coopers actually owns Mr.Beer, but their cans are twice the size. So if you buy one of the Coopers cans, and any additives you need for that brew. You simply split it in half. So instead of using the full 3.75lbs can of Coopers, I used half of it. And I used half of the 2lbs of LME. I weighed out half and used half. The extra is sealed and in the fridge. When I bottle this batch, I will start brewing the second half of this kit. I use an oz scale so it is a more precise split. Otherwise guessing you likely wont get an even split.

I just made it like any other Liquid Extract kit. I just used half of the ingredients at a time since the LBK is 2.5gal instead of 5. I haven't had any issues with head room either.

 

[zzzman74]

Kevron, where do I find the exact recipes and steps to make a coopers batch the way you've described? I think your idea is what I'd like to try next.

PM sent

 

[RPCidery]

When I started with winemaking, I had been slowly accumulating equipment from Craigslist and yard sales for some time. There was no extra cost to transition to cider, and it was like $30 for a brand new Graniteware kettle for beer. Feeling rich one day, I sprung $48 for a new 6-gallon carboy.
So far, I just use extracts with a mini-mash or steeping grains, and it costs about $28 for extract, grains, yeast and water for a solid 5 gallon finished batch.
The beers I like cost between $3 and $8 for a half-liter or bomber, so it adds up quick.
It's pretty cold and wet here in the PNW, so the time used for brewing or cider/winemaking is just time I would have spent surfing the 'net or watching TV.

 

[jtratcliff]

where do I find the exact recipes and steps

look at the recipes forum... or google for recipes. Seriously, try Biermuncher's centennial blonde:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/centennial-blonde-simple-4-all-grain-5-10-gall-42841/

Look at post #10 for the extract version. Google how to covert DME to LME so you're more Mr. Beer like.


Read Palmer's "How to Brew" (1st edition is online for free: http://www.howtobrew.com/) for specific steps and terminology. Look at the stickied threads here to see how other people do it.

Very similar to what you do for Mr Beer. You boil your extract for some amount of time usually an hour but can be less if you don't need to have the hops in for a full 60 mins. (Centennial Blonde has a 45 minute addition, so you would only need to boil for 45 minutes). Throw your hops in at the right time(s). after this point everything is the same as Mr. Beer.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

If you discount my gear then I've saved a boatload. If you don't well.... it's shiny.

 

[RazorUK]

If you discount my gear then I've saved a boatload. If you don't well.... it's shiny.

+1

When you are drinking craft beers at $15 a bottle, and I can make 5 gallons of a similar bourbon stout for $40 I am saving a ton if you don't take into account the sunk coat of my gear.

It's a hobby I enjoy with a couple of close friends. I can't put a price on that!

 

[Transamguy77]

I didn't read the whole thread, after you said to focus on the cost of ingredients I'm gonna put in my 2 cents.

I started with Mr beer myself, I now make 10 gallon batches for about $40 or less which is 4.5 cases or less than 40 cents a bottle. I buy in bulk, reuse yeast and grow my own hops.

You said you like the brewing process but Mr Beer and AG are completely different, the time difference alone is like 4+ hours, don't get me wrong I love AG but just do some lurking on YouTube and watch some AG vids I know it helped me.

 

[RM-MN]

I didn't read the whole thread, after you said to focus on the cost of ingredients I'm gonna put in my 2 cents.

I started with Mr beer myself, I now make 10 gallon batches for about $40 or less which is 4.5 cases or less than 40 cents a bottle. I buy in bulk, reuse yeast and grow my own hops.

You said you like the brewing process but Mr Beer and AG are completely different, the time difference alone is like 4+ hours, don't get me wrong I love AG but just do some lurking on YouTube and watch some AG vids I know it helped me.

No, the time difference on your system for you is 4+ hours. Some of us use different methods and different equipment and can shave that difference by quite an amount.

 

[MotorcycleMatt]

No, the time difference on your system for you is 4+ hours. Some of us use different methods and different equipment and can shave that difference by quite an amount.

this, biab no sparge is so easy and much more time efficient

 

[bajaedition]

I never started this hobby to save money, I started it because I already was a wine maker. This is just a offshoot of that
Cost? eh 50 cents to 75 cents a bottle. Not much of a savings considering the time I put into it, or my investment in equipment.

But value, I am all over it. always gaving a couple of beers on tap
not having to run out and get another sixer of some craft brew

Pride of being able to serve my beer

What can be said? if I thought I was saving money money brewing beer, I would have to say no. to much personal time invested.

But if I was satisfied with the hobby? OH YEA

it is just to much fun

 

[fearwig]

What can be said? if I thought I was saving money money brewing beer, I would have to say no. to much personal time invested.

I get that sentiment, but I think people go too far when they consider payment for their time. If we felt we had to get paid for everything we did in our off time to make it worthwhile, we'd probably stay in bed.

If you are brewing beer instead of working a second job and hoping to make that work out for you, I guess you should take this into consideration. Otherwise it's a pretty fair assumption you'd be sitting on your duff, and given that, it's a value.

 

[Transamguy77]

No, the time difference on your system for you is 4+ hours. Some of us use different methods and different equipment and can shave that difference by quite an amount.

You are absolutely correct, the time it takes me is different than other people. What I was getting at is if you follow the Mr Beer directions it takes about a half hour, making beer AG is significantly longer somewhere in the neighbor hood of 4 hours give or take a half hour. The processes are completely different and I was just trying to make the OP aware of that.