Copper Pipe Questions

[emjay]

I got a new 15gal kettle, and I don't want to be hauling the entire pot full of near-boiling wort down a flight of stairs in order to use my plate chiller on the only faucet in the house capable of accepting a garden hose adapter.

So I figure the way to go is to install a valve underneath the kitchen sink. Taking a peek, it's pretty much all soldered, so it's not going to be as easy as swapping out fittings. I think I have an idea of how to do it, but I would appreciate critiques if anyone foresees a problem, and perhaps provide a better solution.

I'm thinking to assemble the whole thing first, using a brass tee, before cutting out a section of the cold-water pipe. On both ends, I'll connect MPT x Compression fittings, which will connect to the two cut ends of pipe. On the third part of the tee, I'll connect a nipple, to a ball valve, to a MPT x Male Garden Hose fitting. When I need cold water to the chiller, I just connect my hose to it and open the valve.

Seems simple enough, but am I overlooking any potential practical problems?

Also, it's rigid pipe. Will compression fittings work just as fine as on ductile copper?

Lastly, if I remember correctly, rigid copper is typically measured by I.D., and ductile by O.D., but I'm pretty sure that's a non-issue since I don't even know what size it's labeled as. But that brings me to another problem... I don't know what size it is . So, what's the best way to make sure I get the correct size of compression fittings?

I know there's a lot of questions, but obviously I'm not a lifelong DIY-er, so I'd appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[StoneFan]

There aren't any shut off valves under your sink??
Typically right when the copper exits the wall there is a valve and then the supply line to the fixture

Edit:
As far as getting all the right sizes......Turn the water off. Cut where you want to cut and install your stuff. Measure or take old pieces with you to the HW store to get everything right.

 

[Catt22]

You plan is basically sound, but there are easier ways to splice into the existing pipe. You can use a repair coupling which has no center stop so it can be slid all the way onto the pipe. You could also use a union when hooking it back up. The compression fittings you suggest will work, but it will probably require more fittings/adapters. A lot depends on how tight the work space is and how much play you have in the pipes. Oh, the above suggestions assume that you can sweat a fitting, but if not, it's easy to learn. The tee could be a sweat x sweat x 1/2" npt, then you could thread a nipple and ball valve into that, or better yet, a regular hose bib a la outdoor faucet. Those are available with npt threads and the faucet valve would already have the garden hose threads, so no adapter would be required. Might be good time to install a water filter as well, if you don't already have one.

 

[LordUlrich]

First, have you looked into an adapter for the faucet. I picked one up at my local home store, it screws in instead of the aerator, likely to be easier and cheaper.
As far as measuring the pipe size a calipers is the right tool, otherwise grab a cloth tape, measure around the pipe and use the formula C=pi D to get D.
I would check out the "gator grip" fittings at the store, way easier than using threaded or solder fittings in confined spaces if you don't do a lot of plumbing.
Good luck

 

[dmfa200]

What about this?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004CR4PGM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[emjay]

Never sweated or soldered anything, and I'd rather not start with this particular thing. I'm the kind of guy who must inevitably learn from his mistakes, so I'd rather not be learning to play with fire in such a confined and cramped space.

Of course I know about unscrewing the aerator and replacing it with an adapter though. That's what I meant when I said my downstairs sink is able to accept it. But my kitchen tap is built somewhat like the kind of showerhead you can pick up and move around to better get at all the more difficult parts (attached by a hose of course.) The aerator is built right into the faucet itself all as one big piece... it has very little in common with a conventional utility sink or even a bathroom faucet. I can't find too much info on that gator grips stuff - a lot of products seem to share that name! - but from what little I can gather, it's similar to those sharkbite fittings. Probably slightly easier to use than compression fittings, but more expensive, though I may consider something like that if I see them (often not the case in Canada). Thanks for the formula for working out circumference/diameter, though I do know my math What I'm more concerned about is whether the answer it will give me - the O.D. of the pipe - is going to be the same number as the size of the compression fittings I'll need for it!

And as for that Amazon link, it's an interesting product but I'm not sure how useful it'd be - I'd have to get a small section of pipe (suppose I could reuse the piece I cut out lol), another compression fitting to connect to the end of that, and then possibly another adapter (NPT x MGH) since I haven't seen any Compression x MGH fittings anywhere. And that's ignoring the fact that all compression fittings on that piece are inexplicably mismatched in size. Besides, I want to use readily available stuff I can get at Home Depot or Lowe's or someplace similar; I'd like to have this done fairly soon, and so I don't want to wait for an amazon merchant to process my order and then wait even longer for a package from another country... but thank you for the link.

One other idea overall that I found particularly interesting is the use of an actually garden hose valve/spout with a NPT inlet. Haven't seen them myself, but haven't really looked for it either. Though I've never been much of a fan of those handles anyways.

Speaking of garden hoses... I noticed the line going to the dishwasher uses a garden hose fitting! But then I quickly realized it was hot water anyways, and so obviously not of much use to me... but man, that would have made things easier

Thanks though for your help so far. If anybody could offer any more advice, insight, or criticism above and beyond what's already been delivered, I'm all ears! Errr... eyes.

One problem I think I COULD possibly have, due to the rigid pipe, is wedging the assembled fittings between the two sections of pipe to fit it into the fittings. What I mean is, the assembled fittings from one end to the other will be longer than the removed section of pipe until I actually get the ends of the pipe into the compression fittings. I hope that makes SOME sense. If it was ductile copper, it'd obviously have enough give to pull the ends outward, but with rigid copper, I really don't know if that'd be a good idea. I'm probably just overanalyzing it though, as if it were a serious issue, I think somebody would have already mentioned. But just in case, it'd help to know for sure that it isn't actually a practical concern whatsoever.

Sorry for yet another novel of a post, but thanks!

 

[martinworswick]

can't you just run the garden hose from the existing faucet up through the kitchen window or something like that? in my mind it seems to be the easiest/cheapest way

 

[emjay]

can't you just run the garden hose from the existing faucet up through the kitchen window or something like that? in my mind it seems to be the easiest/cheapest way

I'd have to bring it in through the back door and then across to the opposite side near the front of the house, bringing in all kinds of dirt and mud. Plus, I'd like to be able to use it for strike and sparge water, without having to haul/lift/move the full vessels if possible, as well as top up water when necessary, but I'm not about to use the garden hose for this, so replacing it with a proper drinking-water hose (like that found in mobile homes) would easily cost a lot more, and even an adequate extension of crummy garden hose most likely would. AndI've already spent money putting hoses together, with most of it made from 1/2" high-temp silicone tubing, except for the coolant/backflush hoses which are made from reinforced vinyl, since silicone can blow up and burst under tap water pressures, and in these cases, the water flowing through them isn't consumed anyways.

I worked out a slightly more simple/elegant/obvious solution though, requiring only 3 fittings (and only 2 if I could somehow manage to find a valve with a compression and garden hose connection) instead of the original 6, making it both a cheaper and cleaner looking mod, and the valve I need is far easier to find around here. It also reuses the tiny section of cut pipe, allowing me to orient it perfectly how I want it, rather than hoping threaded connections end up with the fittings in decent positions. It's even simple enough to describe rather easily:

Tee (comp. x comp. x comp.) ->
Tiny piece of pipe ->
Ball valve (comp. x FPT) ->
Adapter (MPT x MGH)

...aaand voila. Or, as I've heard far too many Americans miserably fail in a manner they often (ironically) hope will underscore some degree of sophistication/cleverness/intellect...

"...aaand walla!"

 

[Catt22]

One other idea overall that I found particularly interesting is the use of an actually garden hose valve/spout with a NPT inlet. Haven't seen them myself, but haven't really looked for it either. Though I've never been much of a fan of those handles anyways.

One problem I think I COULD possibly have, due to the rigid pipe, is wedging the assembled fittings between the two sections of pipe to fit it into the fittings. What I mean is, the assembled fittings from one end to the other will be longer than the removed section of pipe until I actually get the ends of the pipe into the compression fittings.

1. The hose bib faucets are available at Home Depot. You will have a choice of handle styles and connection type (ie, threaded or sweat). The type with male pipe threads would screw right into a threaded tee.

2. This is what the repair coupling is for. It will slip up onto the pipe completely, then when you line up the pipes you can move it down into position. This solves what you are describing.

I agree that learning to sweat fittings in such a confined spot would probably not be a good idea. There is a fitting called a compression repair coupling that might work for you.

The pipe is almost certainly 1/2" rigid copper. It will be 1/2" ID and 5/8" OD. Unless things are different up north, that is.

 

[emjay]

1. The hose bib faucets are available at Home Depot. You will have a choice of handle styles and connection type (ie, threaded or sweat). The type with male pipe threads would screw right into a threaded tee.

2. This is what the repair coupling is for. It will slip up onto the pipe completely, then when you line up the pipes you can move it down into position. This solves what you are describing.

I agree that learning to sweat fittings in such a confined spot would probably not be a good idea. There is a fitting called a compression repair coupling that might work for you.

The pipe is almost certainly 1/2" rigid copper. It will be 1/2" ID and 5/8" OD. Unless things are different up north, that is.

That size looks about right, though I don't think I've ever seen 5/8" compression fittings.

I realized that the garden hose connection to the dishwasher is still useful. I'm going to need a hot water source anyways for backflushing the wort side of my plate chiller after use, so at least that part will be extremely easy.

I'll definitely look into that repair coupling though... thanks.

 

[LordUlrich]

I can't find too much info on that gator grips stuff - a lot of products seem to share that name! - but from what little I can gather, it's similar to those sharkbite fittings.

Same thing, yep.

That size looks about right, though I don't think I've ever seen 5/8" compression fittings

I am pretty sure water supply pipes are sized by ID not OD. I would suggest a stop by your local home store plumbing department and checkout what you have for options parts wise. I have no idea what parts may or may available in Canada.

Another think to keep in mind is what material is surface below the new faucet? if it is plain wood it is not likely to react well to any drips that may come from your new faucet (think about the water that comes out when you disconnect a garden hose). I would try something like a scrap of counter top from the home store to line the bottom of the cabinet, not that it will take all the water from the hose but it will hold up better than plywood.

 

[o4_srt]

The easiest way to tie into an existing supply pipe is with a saddle valve, hands down. No soldering or cutting required. If you can turn a screwdriver, you can install a saddle valve.

It's pretty much a clamp with some rubber seals and a pin. You fasten the valve around the supply pipe, then turn the pin until it pierces the pipe, then you can just attach whatever you need to the valve.

 

[chady74]

get some short scrap pipe and some fiting and practice sweating on a binch then you should be able to do it under your sink

 

[Catt22]

The easiest way to tie into an existing supply pipe is with a saddle valve, hands down. No soldering or cutting required. If you can turn a screwdriver, you can install a saddle valve.

It's pretty much a clamp with some rubber seals and a pin. You fasten the valve around the supply pipe, then turn the pin until it pierces the pipe, then you can just attach whatever you need to the valve.

That would be the easiest way to tap into a line, but I doubt that it would provide a high enough flow rate. I'm guessing on this, but it would seem that the piercing pin would necessarily be quite restrictive. It's much the same problem with adapting a sink faucet. The supply lines are usually only 3/8" to the faucet. This could be important depending on your chilling methods. I need max flow through my CFC, so 3/8" wouldn't cut it for me. The saddle tap would probably be as bad regarding flow rate. I could be wrong though, as it has been a while since I looked closely at a saddle tap.

Sweating copper fittings is not at all difficult to learn and it's a handy skill to have.

 

[o4_srt]

That would be the easiest way to tap into a line, but I doubt that it would provide a high enough flow rate. I'm guessing on this, but it would seem that the piercing pin would necessarily be quite restrictive. It's much the same problem with adapting a sink faucet. The supply lines are usually only 3/8" to the faucet. This could be important depending on your chilling methods. I need max flow through my CFC, so 3/8" wouldn't cut it for me. The saddle tap would probably be as bad regarding flow rate. I could be wrong though, as it has been a while since I looked closely at a saddle tap.

Sweating copper fittings is not at all difficult to learn and it's a handy skill to have.

It works fine for our dishwasher

 

[Catt22]

It works fine for our dishwasher

Different application. I didn't say it wouldn't work. I said it wouldn't work well for me due to the restricted flow rate. They are commonly used for the water connection to refrigerators for water dispensers and ice makers where the slow flow rate is not important. It would make little difference if a dishwasher filled slowly or very fast. They only use a few gallons of water, so even at a slow fill rate, it doesn't take very long.

 

[BeerRunner]

...But my kitchen tap is built somewhat like the kind of showerhead you can pick up and move around...

I'm not sure exactly what you want to end up with. If you want a hose that is only there at brewing time, I would suggest removing the head of your pull-out sprayer and adapting its feed to something like a 10foot ice maker line. It's easy, and there's no cutting or soldering involved. I would go to a plumbing supply house and tell them what you need. You're more likely to get good advice there vs a home improvement type of store.

 

[emjay]

I'm not sure exactly what you want to end up with. If you want a hose that is only there at brewing time, I would suggest removing the head of your pull-out sprayer and adapting its feed to something like a 10foot ice maker line. It's easy, and there's no cutting or soldering involved. I would go to a plumbing supply house and tell them what you need. You're more likely to get good advice there vs a home improvement type of store.

The whole faucet is kind of just one big pull-out sprayer A bit difficult to explain... I'd take a picture, but I've dropped this phone so many times, the camera no longer works.

I think I'll just see if I can find a friend who can sweat the fittings, and maybe show me at the same time A lot of good options here, but ultimately, the chance to take advantage of the increased flow from the 1/2" pipe (as opposed to anywhere after it connects to 3/8") to use with my plate chiller is too good to pass up, and seems like the ideal solution *even if I could* just hook up a GH adapter to the faucet.

The small downside is that I'll also need to tie into a hot water line in order to backflush my chiller, but the existing dishwasher connection makes that part ridiculously simple.

 

[Catt22]

I'm not sure exactly what you want to end up with. If you want a hose that is only there at brewing time, I would suggest removing the head of your pull-out sprayer and adapting its feed to something like a 10foot ice maker line. It's easy, and there's no cutting or soldering involved. I would go to a plumbing supply house and tell them what you need. You're more likely to get good advice there vs a home improvement type of store.

The standard ice maker tubing is only 1/4" OD and IIRC about 0.170 ID. IMO this is much too small to use with a chiller as the flow rate will be very low. I would tee into the 1/2" line for max flow rate if I were doing it.

 

[jake-k]

Being in the wholesale plumbing supply buisness for twelve years, they make an adapter that connects to your supply valve under your kitchen sink, that will ultimatly add a line straight from your cold supply made mainly for adding on a dishwasher or to that effect. It will be 3/8" which will allow for any flexible faucet connector or adapt to about anything you would like. Almost every hw store should have on the shelf. Probably about 7 dollars, best part no cutting into copper lines and risking a leak.

This should allow for sufficient flow, as that is what is suppling your kitchen faucet, so whatever flow you have on your kitchen faucet all the way cold will be your flow out of this adapter.

 

[BeerRunner]

The standard ice maker tubing is only 1/4" OD and IIRC about 0.170 ID. IMO this is much too small to use with a chiller as the flow rate will be very low. I would tee into the 1/2" line for max flow rate if I were doing it.

He could get a washing machine supply line. It's larger and has garden hose connections.

 

[Catt22]

He could get a washing machine supply line. It's larger and has garden hose connections.

IIRC, the OP wanted to know what his options were for splicing into his under sink plumbing. I think he has the rest already figured out.

 

[emjay]

Thanks for the help guys. I finally went ahead and did it. Well actually, I had a friend do all the soldering and he also had all the spare parts necessary to do it. A bit uglier than I was thinking, but who cares... it's under the sink. He suggested a garden hose gate valve at first, but I know those are not designed to restrict flow and can develop leaks if used to do so.

So basically, I tied into the half-inch piping (the flow is AMAZING), and ALL connections are soldered. So it looks like this:

Tee -> Pipe -> Ball Valve -> Pipe -> Male Garden Hose

Like I said, not pretty having to use all that pipe, but it actually gave me the added benefit of bringing it all up towards the front, allowing for easier access.