Copper chiller and brewtanB ?

[SanPancho]

so what's the consensus? stainless is the ideal, but its less conductive and more expensive.

so all other practices aside, is it kosher to use copper if you're also dosing with brewtanB? or is that something that's considered a sort of half-ass stopgap until some stainless gets in the picture?

in short, i have a stainless IC but it sucks. feel like it takes way longer to chill than the copper.




and on a kind-of related note- anybody know of a way to rig up your chiller to a kitchen faucet with one of the stupid aerators? my free source of ice is gone, so back to chilling with tap water for me. no idea what the threading is on those suckers but the faucet is the only water source within like 25 feet of the kitchen.

 

[day_trippr]

If you can unscrew the aerator you can usually find one of these that will get you to a GHT thread...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

I don't have an answer on the Cu/BrewtanB relationship. Can the aerator screen be unscrewed and removed? If so, there are threaded inserts that can go in the faucet that allow connection of a hose fitting.

Edit: dammit, day trippr beat me by a minute.

 

[mongoose33]

There's a version that has a knurled area between both sets of threads and it makes it much easier to get it on and off the kitchen faucet.

This is the one I have:

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...93-c-8538.htm?tid=-5912634161819912602&ipos=4

 

[mongoose33]

I've been pursuing this with a couple Chemistry Professor friends, trying to get a handle on this Brewtan-B/Copper relationship.

Before I got my SS counterflow chiller, I used BtB in my boil before using a copper Jaded Hydra. I brewed some very good beer doing that, but the general consensus among the LODO people at the time (on the LODO site, not here) was that one wanted to get copper out of the process if at all possible. Thus the switch to my SS CF chiller.

The darned thing is slow. I wonder how much faster it would be if it were made of copper, but I suppose it doesn't matter.

I've gone to electric brewing so no particularly good way to use the Hydra given the element is in the way. Unless I can get something to allow it to stand off the bottom, which I suppose I could gin up.

I've been changing the equipment and process since about April, and since so many elements of the process are changing, I can't isolate the effect of using--or not using--BtB in the boil.

I do use it in my strike water--preboil to drive off oxygen, chill down to about 160 degrees, add water amendments including 1g of BtB, then underlet the crushed grain. Why use it in the mash? I don't have any copper there either, but one of the LODO people suggested I use it, so I do.

Not sure what reactions it's supposed to suppress in the mash. I also use 1.5 crushed Campden tablets (potassium metabisulfite) in the strike water as oxygen scavengers, use a mash cap, avoid splashing, the usual stuff.

 

[SanPancho]

I use it as well in mash and boil. It definitely helps keep the darker maltier beers from aging and fading so much. As for the hoppier stuff i really cannot say. But when i use the copper chiller it obviously has its role.



Ill look and see if i can find the longer version of the aeration adapter. Nice to see it in one piece and not having to use multiple adapters, unions, etc as i would have assumed.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Are you guys using Brewtan B (BTB) with potassium metabisulfate (KMB) or sodium metabisulfate (SMB) in your mash water or brew kettle?

Just curious. Don't know it's only to prevent the down side of the Fenton reaction with a copper chiller or if it also scavenges dissolved oxygen (DO).

 

[mongoose33]

Are you guys using Brewtan B (BTB) with potassium metabisulfate (KMB) or sodium metabisulfate (SMB) in your mash water or brew kettle?

Just curious. Don't know it's only to prevent the down side of the Fenton reaction with a copper chiller or if it also scavenges dissolved oxygen (DO).

It's the KMB or SMB that scavenges oxygen in the mash, not the BtB.

What I do--there is at least one other way involving yeast as an oxygen scavenger--is preboil the strike water for 5 minutes. I then cool it down to strike temperature using a SS counterflow chiller, then add my water amendments, including 1.5 crushed Campden tablets. I don't add them until after the pre-boil and cooling so they don't scavenge oxygen that I'm going to drive off with the pre-boil anyway.

I don't use it during the brewing boil.

 

[Schlenkerla]

It's the KMB or SMB that scavenges oxygen in the mash, not the BtB.

What I do--there is at least one other way involving yeast as an oxygen scavenger--is preboil the strike water for 5 minutes. I then cool it down to strike temperature using a SS counterflow chiller, then add my water amendments, including 1.5 crushed Campden tablets. I don't add them until after the pre-boil and cooling so they don't scavenge oxygen that I'm going to drive off with the pre-boil anyway.

I don't use it during the brewing boil.

Thank you!!!

 

[SanPancho]

Any lodo fanatics out there with some info on the copper with btb issue?

 

[day_trippr]

I'll bet a beer there's plenty of information extant in the LoDo site...

Cheers!

 

[bierhaus15]

There are no issues using BTB with copper equipment as it inhibits both the Fenton and Haber-Weiss oxidation reactions. That said, BTB is more effective at removing iron - up to ~70% in wort - but it also helps with precipitation of Cu during the boil and whirlpool. Unlike Fe that primarily sees reduction via fermentation (yeast uptake), copper is actually lost more readily in boil/trub formation. Therefore hot-side copper exposure is far less impactful than cold side, especially after fermentation.

That said, yeast uptake of iron/copper occurs mostly during the yeast growth phase, with faster yeast growth rates resulting in more intracelluar metal uptake; in short you want to minimize the time the yeast goes through its growth phase. Use pure 02 and do not underpitch! The downside to metal uptake is that when the yeast dies, it releases metals back into the beer, so it is also important to get the beer off the yeast as soon your flavor targets are reached. Repitching the yeast (bottom cropped) also compounds the amount of yeast-bound metals from batch to batch.

Per copper immersion chillers, I would not have any qualms about using one so long as you are not introducing copper to the brew via other processes. Cu picked up during the chilling process will largely precipitate out with proper trub formation, if you are chilling the wort quickly. What is left should be taken up by the yeast in fermentation. The presence of Cu in wort also greatly helps with sulfide reduction, something that is very much an issue when using SMB. Aside, if you are using SMB, do some research on the use of KMB and sodium isoascorbate. Lastly, I've never seen more than 0.25 ppm of Cu in beer unless there was copper piping downstream of fermentation.

 

[eric19312]

I've had a great deal of difficulty sourcing BtB. The stuff doesn't seem to be catching on. Not seen in any of the LHBS I've visited over last year. Not available from any of the online retailers I frequent either including Farmhouse, Brewhardware and Morebeer. Not available from from online sources I've been thinking to use...Northern Brewer (don't hate I'm pretty curious to try out their free shipping on grain), Atlantic Brew Supply, Adventures in Homebrew...

If this stuff is so great why is nobody carrying it?

 

[jdauria]

I use BrewTan B and SMB in my BIAB mash and more BTB in the boil, with a copper chiller when I brew my LoDo beers. What amazes me is for my light colored lagers, is how clear the wort is at after chilling the wort. This leads to very clear beers with very little lagering time. Here's my Pils three weeks after brewing.

 

[JimRausch]

If this stuff is so great why is nobody carrying it?

Agreed. I'd love to get some and give it a try.

 

[SanPancho]

Its mainly available to pros but i feel like there is a similar product for wine. Might do research on the actual chem- gallotannin i believe.

Homebrew Folks are using it, so somebody is selling it. Maybe post in lodo subthread and see where are getting it.

 

[tmendick]

Talk you your LHBS, BSG carries it in 1oz packages so many shops should be able to get it.

 

[SanPancho]

@bierhaus15 thanks. Sounds like i shouldn’t worry too much then about hot side. The only cold side copper is just one brass fitting on my transfer tubing rig the beer passes thru from ferm to keg. Just during transfer, doesn’t sit in contact. Beer is generally crash cold. That a concern?

I dont repitch so no concern there. And the only time i under pitch is kviek.

 

[LittleRiver]

...my free source of ice is gone, so back to chilling with tap water for me...

Shop around for ice. I found a discount grocery store that sells a 20lb bag for $2.90. At that price it's worth every penny.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I've had a great deal of difficulty sourcing BtB. The stuff doesn't seem to be catching on. Not seen in any of the LHBS I've visited over last year. Not available from any of the online retailers I frequent either including Farmhouse, Brewhardware and Morebeer. Not available from from online sources I've been thinking to use...Northern Brewer (don't hate I'm pretty curious to try out their free shipping on grain), Atlantic Brew Supply, Adventures in Homebrew...

If this stuff is so great why is nobody carrying it?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/BrewTan-...uCR8CMa2lP8rs6jrCdHinyehQLvu3sL4aAnihEALw_wcB

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Brewtan-B-P4461.aspx

Agreed. I'd love to get some and give it a try.

https://wyeastlab.com/brewtan

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/brewtan-b-dosing/

 

[bierhaus15]

@bierhaus15 The only cold side copper is just one brass fitting on my transfer tubing rig the beer passes thru from ferm to keg. Just during transfer, doesn’t sit in contact. Beer is generally crash cold. That a concern?

I would be hesitant to have any brass/beer contact after fermentation. It won't ruin the beer, but it's not helping anything either.

 

[SanPancho]

Shop around for ice. I found a discount grocery store that sells a 20lb bag for $2.90. At that price it's worth every penny.

Yeah, highly unlikely in SF. And its another thing to put on the to do list for brew day. I got a two year old, a pregnant wife, tons of work, etc. Time is in short supply. Trying to simplify, and developing new process - Overnight full volume mash in cooler. Then quick boil and cool the next morning.

I would be hesitant to have any brass/beer contact after fermentation. It won't ruin the beer, but it's not helping anything either.

Good point. Pretty sure i should be able to locate similar fittings in stainless. Just a 3/8 compression x mip and a hose barb adapter. Nothing exotic.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I would be hesitant to have any brass/beer contact after fermentation. It won't ruin the beer, but it's not helping anything either.

Me 2.

Brass is no good in beer...it contains lead. Alcohol can leach lead.

Drinking beer from a brass mug 'ill make you go crazy.

 

[SanPancho]

This is CA. The brass is lead safe, and there’s a way to do something along the lines of passivation where you get a surface layer down and it doesn’t leach. Not sure if that applies to the copper as well tho.
But yeah, stainless is better, and like I said, the two pieces aren’t exotic so swapping for stainless shouldn’t be too hard.

 

[schematix]

This is the cheapest I've found BTB. Even with airmail shipping to the US, the price is quite reasonable because the exchange rate is so favorable. I've always received it in less than 2 weeks. I think all-in last time was something like $15-17 US.

https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b

 

[Schlenkerla]

This is CA. The brass is lead safe, and there’s a way to do something along the lines of passivation where you get a surface layer down and it doesn’t leach. Not sure if that applies to the copper as well tho.
But yeah, stainless is better, and like I said, the two pieces aren’t exotic so swapping for stainless shouldn’t be too hard.

I think you're talking about anodizing. I was in the military I had brass buckles and buttons that were anodized, mainly because it doesn't tarnish. Turn green from the lead.

I'd rather use food grade plastic or stainless before using copper or stainless on finished beer.

 

[SanPancho]

Its not anodizing i dont think. You wipe it or rinse with a chemical and then it dries. I could be wrong, but it didn’t sound like anodizing which wouldn’t be something you could do at home as i understand it.

In any case, ill look for SS. Not a big deal, just don’t typically see alot of stainless in the local hardware stores. Gotta order it from somebody online id guess.

This is the cheapest I've found BTB. Even with airmail shipping to the US, the price is quite reasonable because the exchange rate is so favorable. I've always received it in less than 2 weeks. I think all-in last time was something like $15-17 US.

https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b

Holy christ. That’s expensive. Hell, give me the $17 and ill give you 100 grams. Lordy.

 

[schematix]

Holy christ. That’s expensive. Hell, give me the $17 and ill give you 100 grams. Lordy.

Deal. You're the cheapest I've seen then.

As with anything if you buy in volume you can get significantly better price when you buy a full bag instead of a broken down portion. I'm using roughly 2g per 5G of finished beer so even the 50g package i buy usually lasts me about a year, which is close to the stated shelf life.

 

[mongoose33]

http://www.ritebrew.com/SearchResults.asp?Extensive_Search=Y&Search=brewtan&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0

Brewtan-B for $4.79

In the states.

 

[schematix]

I paid USD$14.52 shipped after currency exchange for the 50g package from ibrew.

 

[day_trippr]

The purported process of leaching out surface lead from brass is called "pickling" and you can find threads on HBT discussing it. And you can also find articles on the web that claim pickling really isn't very effective.

Otherwise, it's not the alcohol in beer that's a problem with brass, it's the acidity. pH in the 4s will eat up all kinds of stuff...

Cheers!

 

[Schlenkerla]

The purported process of leaching out surface lead from brass is called "pickling" and you can find threads on HBT discussing it. And you can also find articles on the web that claim pickling really isn't very effective.

Otherwise, it's not the alcohol in beer that's a problem with brass, it's the acidity. pH in the 4s will eat up all kinds of stuff...

Cheers!

I knew there was a reason. pH has a way of jacking things up. Same with ultra purity.

I once saw maintenance try to use copper pipe for RO water. Didn't last long. The affinity for attaching to copper ions dissolved it over time.

 

[jdauria]

This is the cheapest I've found BTB. Even with airmail shipping to the US, the price is quite reasonable because the exchange rate is so favorable. I've always received it in less than 2 weeks. I think all-in last time was something like $15-17 US.

https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b

The accountant in me has to break it down. 50 grams = 1.76 ounces. $6.87 AU = $4.91 US... so $2.79 per ounce before international shipping. Definitely cheaper than Williams Brewing which is $5.99 an ounce or RiteBrew at $4.79 an ounce. Adding shipping (to Mass), RiteBrew is $7.34 total for an ounce, Williams $12.98 an ounce. Where you paid $14.52 last time from AU, that comes to $8.25 an ounce. So it looks like on a per ounce basis, RiteBrew would be cheaper than ordering from overseas. You can get two ounces from Ritebrew for $12.38 with shipping, vs $14.52 for 1.76 ounces from Australia.

 

[schematix]

Good analysis.

So ritebrew is the current price leader (by a small margin) and you can buy a smaller quantity if you desire.

Last time i purchased i couldn't find anywhere in the US that had it in small quantities. Glad to see things are changing and next time i won't have to order a simple product from halfway around the world.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I brought my Brewtan-B for $9.95 (1oz) and the 1mg scale for $19. Both from Wal-Mart and free shipping!

 

[eric19312]

http://www.ritebrew.com/SearchResults.asp?Extensive_Search=Y&Search=brewtan&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0

Brewtan-B for $4.79

In the states.

Thanks @mongoose33 - I've never ordered from Ritebrew but will give them a try next time I need supplies if my currently preferred vendors are still not stocking.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I use BrewTan B and SMB in my BIAB mash and more BTB in the boil, with a copper chiller when I brew my LoDo beers. What amazes me is for my light colored lagers, is how clear the wort is at after chilling the wort. This leads to very clear beers with very little lagering time. Here's my Pils three weeks after brewing. View attachment 606337

Are you still using Irish Moss?

In my first LOB batch, I used the trifecta (SMB/AA/BtB), but I forgot to add the Moss in the last 15 minutes of the boil. At flame out I noticed how clear it was as I shut off the burner. Then I hit me, I forgot the Irish Moss. I flip the burner back on to bring it back up to ~210F. Added the Irish Moss... bam.... instantly the wort was cloudy like the muddy Mississippi.

I'm like... well that was fricken stupid.

I wasn't drinking either!!!

 

[MaxStout]

Are you still using Irish Moss?

In my first LOB batch, I used the trifecta (SMB/AA/BtB), but I forgot to add the Moss in the last 15 minutes of the boil. At flame out I noticed how clear it was as I shut off the burner. Then I hit me, I forgot the Irish Moss. I flip the burner back on to bring it back up to ~210F. Added the Irish Moss... bam.... instantly the wort was cloudy like the muddy Mississippi.

I'm like... well that was fricken stupid.

I wasn't drinking either!!!

Did it settle out quickly in the fermenter? I've never had luck with fining agents working in the boil kettle (not enough time, perhaps), but it would drop right out within a few hours in the fermenter.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Did it settle out quickly in the fermenter? I've never had luck with fining agents working in the boil kettle (not enough time, perhaps), but it would drop right out within a few hours in the fermenter.

It didn't. It kinda ticked me off in the sense that would have preferred to completely have forgotten it altogether.

 

[MaxStout]

I do BIAB and use Whirlfloc the last 10-15 mins of the boil. After racking to the fermenter I can see the trub settle out in a few hours.

Looks like you did all the right things, but yet it didn't settle out. Yeah, that would tick me off too.