Cooling water volume

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OhCrap

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Just wondering, using an immersion chiller, how much water does it take to cool 5 gallons of wort to pitching temp? I know it can vary with temp of water, size of chiller etc.... I ask as I have a rain water tank that holds 200 ltrs (max temp is around 8/10 c). Just connected it to my 25' IC. I attached both in & out with garden hose long enough so that I don't have to move outside to cool.
I may be doing it wrong but I was planning to recirculate the water through the top of the tank...daft or not?
 
if you are recircing, you could always use a chiller coil to pre-cool the water before it goes to your IC. 200L should be plenty.
 
if you are recircing, you could always use a chiller coil to pre-cool the water before it goes to your IC. 200L should be plenty.


Don't have a pre chiller coil, yet... Is a fast or slow flow the most efficient? I have a very simple drill operated pump to do the work... The drill speed would be set and let run automatically.
 
since you are recircing, I would say as fast as you can move the water the better. it will heat up less in the IC and cool the wort faster.
 
since you are recircing, I would say as fast as you can move the water the better. it will heat up less in the IC and cool the wort faster.


That's what I was thinking but reading other threads I thought I'd check... Cheers for the advice
 
Pumping faster won't cool it faster, especially since you're recirculating. At some point you may be pumping water faster than the heat can flow from the wort to the coolant. That speed depends on chiller length as much as flow rate.
Check out Danath34's post below for all the reasons This^ is wrong

You should adjust the flowrate so that the output is warm as cool as possible. Unless you have a large diameter chiller you won't be able to move the water through the chiller fast enough to have it come out cold. More than likely it will come out scalding hot for the first half or so of the chill session. Related to that your pump will only be able to handle so much pressure.

In recirculating systems you're heating up your reservoir at the same rate you cool the wort. This means that not only do you need either a larger volume of cool water or an equal volume of really cold water, but also that your wort will cool more slowly the closer you get to your target temperature because the coolant won't be able to 'move' as much heat as it did at the start.

It takes ~240BTUs(~275kJ) to heat 1G of 60F(16C) water to 90F(33C) and you need to transfer ~960BTUs(~992kJ) from your boiling wort to get it from 210F(98C) down to 90F(33C). So it takes a bit over 3X as much cool water to chill 1G of boiling wort.

Since you have roughly 10X the amount of cold water on hand as is in your typical batch this system should work as you expect.

Edit note:Would've used a line through the text but and [del] don't render.
 
Thanks for the advice.... Brewing in about an hour so I'll run the pump at 1/2 speed and check return watet temp. If it's returning hot I'll up the speed slightly till it begins to get cooler... It's a 25' chiller run with a drill operated pump so the drill speed controls the pressure. I will reportage when done with times etc..thanks for all advice, it's time to brew :)
 
ImageUploadedByHome Brew1411739532.604717.jpgImageUploadedByHome Brew1411739562.589465.jpg
 
Dee is done.... All brewed up and tucked away nice and dark at 63f


CAnt edit post... Anyways it took 15 mins to cool down to 77f but it was a b*****d to bring it down to 65 to pitch, had to put inn fridge and run the chiller.
Adjusted flow so as to have warm water exiting back to tank. Ran it on full initially and it was hot then when water seemed cool then I reduced the speed to about half till the exit water was warm/hot again..... Worked fine for me so now the wait begins..
 
I seem to use about 20-25 gallons of water when chilling in southern California on a moderately warm day. I don't mess with recirculating or any of that mess. I run off my water into buckets and use it to do laundry or run it through my system with PBW for clean up.

I conserve as much as I can, especially with the drought situation in CA this year. Once you get below 90 degrees F it becomes increasingly difficult to get it down to pitching temps, especially if ground water temps are somewhere around 65-70 degrees F which is common for me.

So I just complete the boil, whirlpool, chill down to ~90 degrees F, transfer to the fermenter and place it in my chest freezer set at ~40 degrees F for two hours. Then I go out and set the temperature to pitching temp and usually get to pitch within an hour or two from there after ambient temps and temps of the wort have equalized. Haven't seen any negative effects of this method after 10+ brews.
 
Pumping faster won't cool it faster, especially since you're recirculating. At some point you may be pumping water faster than the heat can flow from the wort to the coolant. That speed depends on chiller length as much as flow rate.

Seriously question this. I'm currently a senior chemical engineering major, and have recently had mass, heat, and momentum transfer, as well as unit ops, and am currently doing labs applying and analyzing the design aspects of several pieces of chemical engineering equipment, including heat exchangers. (disclaimer: senior, havent graduated YET, so if I'm wrong, please correct me, I'd love to know)

A wort chiller is a simple liquid-liquid heat exchanger relying on convective heat transfer. Convective heat transfer is much more efficient than conductive heat transfer, which is why when it comes to IC's people recommend either whirlpooling/stirring the wort, or moving around the chiller inside the kettle. The more turbulence you have in the liquid, the more convection, and thus, the more heat transfer.

Looking at the flow of cooling water within the tube, more flow means a higher Reynold's number (a dimensionless number defined as density * velocity of the fluid * characteristic length, in this case the diameter of the tube, all divided by the viscosity of the fluid). A higher Reynold's number literally means more turbulence, as anything under Re = 2300 is considered laminar, over 4000 is considered turbulent. The higher the number, the more turbulence. So higher flow = more turbulence = more mixing = more convective heat transfer.

You can also look at it this way. If your cooling water is coming out extremely hot, a certain length of the chiller before the outlet is going to be extremely hot as well. It's actually going to be a gradient where the inlet is equal to the cold water temp coming in, and the outlet is equal to the hot water temp coming out. Everything in between is going to be somewhere between the two temperatures.
Now we also know that heat transfer not only relies on the amount of turbulence in the fluid, but also the temperature gradient (i.e. 33F cooling water works a helluva lot faster than 70F water). What this means is that if your cooling water is coming out at the same temp as your wort, heat transfer on the surface of the chiller for a certain distance back from the outlet is next to none. You cant transfer heat from a hot thing to another hot thing. On the other hand, if you had the flow up so damn high that its coming out still cool, the entire surface of the chiller for our intents can be approximated as being at the same cooler temperature, and thus there will be a larger temperature gradient for a larger surface area, and thus more heat transfer. So while it feels like its coming out cooler, it is impossible for it to come out at the same temperature as what it was when it went in (as long as the wort is hotter), and even though it doesn't feel like its moving much heat, it will actually be moving more heat. There will just be less heat transferred for a given volume of water, but you're moving much more water.

Yes, you still have the same number of BTU's for cooling, and yes, the temperature of the bulk cooling water tank will still probably come up to the same temperature, but it's going to happen faster.

Now if we're talking water efficiency in terms of gallons used, clearly you don't want to pump it as fast as you possibly can. But in a recirculation, it doesn't matter. It's just more electricity cost in running the pump faster, but then again, you'll be running it a shorter period of time, so I don't know what the difference will be.

Also, you WOULD want the water to be coming out scalding hot if you happen to run a major brewery, where your cooling water is then piped over to your mash tun. This will make cooling take longer, but it will save a lot of energy, as you won't have to heat it up for your next mash.

Hope that all makes sense, and again, if I'm missing something, please let me know. Oh, and sorry about the wall of text. This has to be the longest "well actually..." in HBT history.

tl;dr: if your goal is to chill as fast as possible, flowing more cooling water in the chiller is better.
 
tl;dr: if your goal is to chill as fast as possible, flowing more cooling water in the chiller is better.

^ this.

The driving force for heat transfer is a difference in temperature. The colder your cooling water is in the coil the faster you will cool your wort. Flowing as fast as possible will ensure maximum temperature difference and minimize cooling time.
 
^ this.

The driving force for heat transfer is a difference in temperature. The colder your cooling water is in the coil the faster you will cool your wort. Flowing as fast as possible will ensure maximum temperature difference and minimize cooling time.


Ok, I ran it fast then slowed it down and it dropped to 75 very fast then took and age to get to 65.... I'm brewing again nest Friday so I'll try leaving it on full throttle and report back which worked fastest getting to pitching temp
 
Brewed beernuts "Deception Cream Stout" last night.....friend helped and we had a "FEW" beers. Notes were forgotten about as the craic started... One thing I did check was the time for cooling.
Ran pump on full from start to finish, all in it took 27 mins from boiling to 63 (transferred and pitched rehydrated Nottingham)
Seems faster on full blast once the hose isn't kinked (another story) :)
 
Yes, as the Engineers above pointed out: The more water you can move through the system the more heat gets removed. If you move more water in a shorter time(ie; max pressure/max output from your pump) you will cool down faster.
 
Also, if you can find another vessel, tank, barrel that can hold even 100 liters, it would be best to hold that chiller output separate. The problem with putting that back into the main tank is that by the time you really need the water to be its coldest, it will have been contaminated with heat.
 
Here in riverside Ca. I just brewed a simple blonde for a coworker. I used the house water which was 78 degree to bring the wort to 96 with 20 gallon of water. After that I cheated and put some Ice in a bucket and finished it down to 65 degrees before the ice was gone. I reversed the wort chiller and just used the Ice water in a bucket. I think it was about 10 lbs of ice. The pump for the ice water is slow so it took 15 minutes or so.
 
Also, if you can find another vessel, tank, barrel that can hold even 100 liters, it would be best to hold that chiller output separate. The problem with putting that back into the main tank is that by the time you really need the water to be its coldest, it will have been contaminated with heat.


That was the thinking behind the original question.... "How much was needed to cool, before water got too WARM to work?" Could I work with one tank or get another one? It appears, at the minute, that I can get away with one until after the winter as there is enough water to work with before it got warm and useless. 27 mins to cool from boiling to 63f isn't too bad but I reckon 15 mins cooling over winter. I'm making a counter flow chiller for next "Season" and that and another water tank should work quicker during the summer months.
 
So hopefully I don't step on my words this time :drunk: .
How I think about cooling beer is like this:
you've got two bodies of water, one hot(wort) the other cold. If you mixed them together you'd get a volume of water with the average of the two. That is hot+cold = warm.
The more cold water you have the cooler your warm resulting water will be. Since we're not actually dumping two liquids together it takes time for us to reach our 'volume averaged' temperature. The faster we can force water through our chiller the faster we reach this Tavg.

We can find Tavg by finding out how much heat each volume contains. Water has ~1 BTU per pound(it changes with temp, but we'll ignore that since our operation isn't concerned with price). A gallon of water is ~8.4 lbs.
So 5 gallons at boiling(210F for most of the US) is 42lbs*1btu/lb *210F = 8.8kBTUs
We need to chill it down to at least 75F if we don't want to stress the yeast. So we can figure out how many BTUs we need to pull away with our chiller.
42lbs*1BTU/lb*(210-75) = 42*135 = 5670BTUs

Now hopefully I haven't stepped on my words/math or lost too many people.
Next we take the temp(60F) of the water we'll run through our chiller and figure out how many pounds of water we'll need to remove ~6kBTUS.
5670 = <Pounds of Water> * 1*(75F-60F)
5670 = <lbs water>*15
5670/15 = lbs of water
378 lbs of water = 45 gallons

You can use less water if your coolant starts off colder. But the amount of heat you're transferring from the wort to the coolant will stay the same(assuming you chill to the same temp).
 
I still think I want to do the 1/4 copper, ~10 gallon (2 5g buckets, one tapwater one icewater) like seen in the video for this
 

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