Conversion in Less Than 1 Hour?

[ishkabibble]

i'd always thought that a full hour was needed for starch conversion. i've even done a few recipes that called for 1.5 hours.

with my last batch--9# Belgian pilsner malt--i tried an iodine test. several spurts outta the old cooler mash tun and several separate tests yielded iodine that stayed red, ergo conversion complete.

this was after 35 minutes.

i boiled as usual and hit my target OG of 1047 on the nose.

is it common for all conversions to take less than an hour? or was this the result of a light grain bill? (most of my mashes are the usual 11-16 pounds of base/crystal, to which i've never applied the iodine test.)

am i missing anything by not going the full hour?

 

[insanim8er]

is it common for all conversions to take less than an hour? or was this the result of a light grain bill? (most of my mashes are the usual 11-16 pounds of base/crystal, to which i've never applied the iodine test.)

am i missing anything by not going the full hour?

It varies... Temp makes a big difference too.

 

[BigJack]

I have read (can't remember where) that conversion can occur in as little as 30 minutes in the right circumstances, though conducting a full 60 minute mash is still preferable. Wish I had a citation for that.

 

[RM-MN]

In testing I've done with grains that are milled very fine as for BIAB, conversion takes less than 5 minutes. The rest of the hour long mash is to get the water to the center of the grain pieces so the starch can convert. If your crush of the grain is not good, you can compensate by mashing longer.

 

[blakelyc]

With highly modified malt, conversion happens very quickly, although there's no harm in letting it ride for a full hour.

 

[Piratwolf]

With highly modified malt, conversion happens very quickly, although there's no harm in letting it ride for a full hour.

This. I've heard two big craft brewers say in interviews this year that the diastatic power of American 2-row especially is so high that not only is 60 mins a waste but that mash temp is nigh irrelevant as a way to work your beer. My jaws still on the floor.

 

[insanim8er]

This. I've heard two big craft brewers say in interviews this year that the diastatic power of American 2-row especially is so high that not only is 60 mins a waste but that mash temp is nigh irrelevant as a way to work your beer. My jaws still on the floor.

Was this pabst and coores?

 

[Piratwolf]

Was this pabst and coores?

I suppose this was meant as a joke (Interwebs are hard to tell), but no. I meant "big" as in well known & making great beer. Too lazy to go back through hours of The Sunday Session to glean the names.

 

[mikder82]

The way I understand starch conversion is this. Alpha amylase is a fast acting enzyme that cuts starch chains indiscriminately. You end up with sugar chains of varying sizes. Beta amylase starts at the end of the starch/sugar chains and systematically cuts them into simple sugars. These simple sugars are much more fermentable. So while starch conversion can happen rather quickly via alpha amylase, the longer mash is to make sure to maximize beta amylase activity. Granted pH and temp controls are taken into account.

 

[fartinmartin]

I have done a mash and measured after 15 mins , it was 1040 , after an hour it got to 1060. So it start very quick then slows down.

 

[RM-MN]

The way I understand starch conversion is this. Alpha amylase is a fast acting enzyme that cuts starch chains indiscriminately. You end up with sugar chains of varying sizes. Beta amylase starts at the end of the starch/sugar chains and systematically cuts them into simple sugars. These simple sugars are much more fermentable. So while starch conversion can happen rather quickly via alpha amylase, the longer mash is to make sure to maximize beta amylase activity. Granted pH and temp controls are taken into account.

The question I have then is how long does the beta amylase take being that it is slower? Iodine tests I have done show conversion in less than 2 minutes but is that just the alpha amylase working? With a 30 minute mash my wort seems to have plenty of fermentable sugars and I've heard from another brewer that does only a 20 minute mash with good results.

 

[progmac]

braukaiser did some tests about the fermentability of the wort based on mash times.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_Time_Dependency_of_Wort_Fermentability
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

 

[VladOfTrub]

The color shade of the iodine will be an indication of what is in the wort as regards to non-fermentable or fermentable sugars. b-limit, red to brown. a-limit yellow to orange.

Enzymes become "slower" if the mash pH isn't in the band of the particular enzyme. Mash thickness is another factor. Thinner mash, quicker the conversion, the quicker enzymes are denatured. Beta works "slower" because it can only chomp off small chunks from the non reducing end of the chain and is dependent on how many branches and non reducing ends are being formed. There are two other enzymes that can help alpha and beta do their thing. The problem is, the two enzymes are destroyed in the baggery and infusion method. Watching the bagger from the HBS make beer, I notice that more water was being used than the basic 1.5 qts/lb English method amount.

 

[ishkabibble]

The way I understand starch conversion is this. Alpha amylase is a fast acting enzyme that cuts starch chains indiscriminately. You end up with sugar chains of varying sizes. Beta amylase starts at the end of the starch/sugar chains and systematically cuts them into simple sugars. These simple sugars are much more fermentable. So while starch conversion can happen rather quickly via alpha amylase, the longer mash is to make sure to maximize beta amylase activity. Granted pH and temp controls are taken into account.

But if conversion is complete after 30min--my iodine stays red--aren't both Alpha and Beta done at that time? That is, if the starch is gone--hydrolysis is complete--the enzymes are done, eh? What's going on in that last half hour other than my pacing?

 

[beertroll]

This. I've heard two big craft brewers say in interviews this year that the diastatic power of American 2-row especially is so high that not only is 60 mins a waste but that mash temp is nigh irrelevant as a way to work your beer. My jaws still on the floor.

I hadn't heard the bit about mash temp not mattering, but I was recently speaking with a craft brewer who has a few GABF medals hanging over his desk who was in agreement on the time. He said conversion is largely finished after 20 minutes, and the rest of the time is just letting the grain bed settle.

 

[ishkabibble]

This. I've heard two big craft brewers say in interviews this year that the diastatic power of American 2-row especially is so high that not only is 60 mins a waste but that mash temp is nigh irrelevant as a way to work your beer. My jaws still on the floor.

I would love to see the source on that. This isn't sarcasm. This seems entirely plausible.

My mashes are always 80-85% Michigan 2-row, and my mash temps range over a single grain bed between 149 and 161. I've never had a problem with gravity that I can remember. (Although I know I'm not the most efficient lauterer as I haven't graduated to fly-sparge yet.)

My pale ale bill:
9# of MI 2-row
1# Crystal 40
.5# Cara-pils
1.25Q h2o/#

...just gave me red iodine after 25 minutes.

Maybe 2-row's diastatic power really doesn't need 60-min rules of thumb and precision temps...

 

[rico567]

I've never had failure to convert*. On the other hand, I never mash less than 60 minutes. I get going early, am done by 1130 or so.....not in any hurry, I guess. If a mash shows conversion in 20 minutes, by all means, get on with it.

*I've used the iodine test once or twice. Now I just use a refractometer. If I get my number, I immediately start the vorlauf......

 

[Piratwolf]

I've never had failure to convert*. On the other hand, I never mash less than 60 minutes. I get going early, am done by 1130 or so.....not in any hurry, I guess. If a mash shows conversion in 20 minutes, by all means, get on with it.

*I've used the iodine test once or twice. Now I just use a refractometer. If I get my number, I immediately start the vorlauf......

This, with emphasis on not in any hurry.

That said, I'll dig into the BN shows & track down the sources. Believe me, nobody could be more flummoxed than I was. I'll post it here when I get a spare minute...

 

[blakelyc]

But if conversion is complete after 30min--my iodine stays red--aren't both Alpha and Beta done at that time? That is, if the starch is gone--hydrolysis is complete--the enzymes are done, eh? What's going on in that last half hour other than my pacing?

Further extraction and conversion. You have to remember that the mash is a chemical process in a very imperfect environment, but all standard rules of mass transport apply. So, the crush is imperfect. Mash thickness is variable, and is detrimental to enzyme activity on both sides. And there's no mechanical agitation.

So, what's happening? Extraction, diffusion, and conversion, just at an increasingly slower rate.

 

[Piratwolf]

I would love to see the source on that. This isn't sarcasm. This seems entirely plausible.

Sorry for the delay--been busy with non-brewing life!

I tracked down one of the two interviews on the DP of 2-row/mash temp issue: Dave Marliave (sp?) of Flat Tail Brewing in Oregon on The BN Sunday Session from Nov 17, 2013. The whole interview is worth hearing, but the pertinent info here comes between 1:07:50 and 1:11:00 in the show. You can DL it free from iTunes or, I think, check the archives at thebrewingnetwork.com.

I got a tip on the second (maybe Damian of Summit Brewing) and will check it out to see.

Cheers!

 

[progmac]

Gordon Strong has made similar comments along those lines...that mash temperature doesn't matter.

This had me so curious that I did an experiment. The exact same beer, one mashed at 160 and the other at 148. Same OG. The FGs were dramatically different--1.023 vs 1.011--just as would be expected by traditional brewing knowledge.

Perhaps where this mash temp doesn't matter business comes into play is in the middle range. Maybe whether the temp is 152 or 156 isn't important. We talked about this at some length on another forum a few months ago. It certainly is an interesting idea.

 

[Piratwolf]

Gordon Strong has made similar comments along those lines...that mash temperature doesn't matter.

This had me so curious that I did an experiment. The exact same beer, one mashed at 160 and the other at 148. Same OG. The FGs were dramatically different--1.023 vs 1.011--just as would be expected by traditional brewing knowledge.

Perhaps where this mash temp doesn't matter business comes into play is in the middle range. Maybe whether the temp is 152 or 156 isn't important. We talked about this at some length on another forum a few months ago. It certainly is an interesting idea.

Thanks for sharing this, Progmac. Interesting results! Was this US 2-row? And I think your point about the middle range is very reasonable.

 

[masonsjax]

I've done a lot of 20-30 min mashes, after hearing that a lot of the big name craft brewers are mashing for 20 mins. I didn't do any scientific experiments, but my results show that 20 mins is plenty of time to get good efficiency and fermentable wort. I had to adjust the mash temp down a couple degrees to compensate, and the efficiency is slightly less, but the time savings may be worth it to many brewers.

A fairly thin mash and a fine crush helps, and I adjust my mash pH via calculated RA using brunwater and acid/mineral additions.

 

[progmac]

Thanks for sharing this, Progmac. Interesting results! Was this US 2-row? And I think your point about the middle range is very reasonable.

No, it was about 1/3 vienna/munich/pilsner, all weyermann. I may have missed the point since I was using the german malts.

 

[Piratwolf]

No, it was about 1/3 vienna/munich/pilsner, all weyermann. They may 'modify' less, although I don't know what that means really

Ah, that makes sense. The brewers I heard talk about this specifically applied it to US 2-row (apparently market forces pushing for efficiency have helped select barley with high enzymatic power) and also specifically said that English or Continental malts still react to mash temp--which seems to be supported by your experiment.

 

[ishkabibble]

Gordon Strong has made similar comments along those lines...that mash temperature doesn't matter.

This had me so curious that I did an experiment. The exact same beer, one mashed at 160 and the other at 148. Same OG. The FGs were dramatically different--1.023 vs 1.011--just as would be expected by traditional brewing knowledge.

Perhaps where this mash temp doesn't matter business comes into play is in the middle range. Maybe whether the temp is 152 or 156 isn't important. We talked about this at some length on another forum a few months ago. It certainly is an interesting idea.

that's the kind of experimentation i wish i had the resources/will to do. i've always assumed you'd get a decent conversion as long as you were in the range temperature-wise 140s-160s due to the prevalent modification, and that more specific temps would determine your dextrin count, but i've never tested this for myself.

kudos to you, sir!

 

[progmac]

that's the kind of experimentation i wish i had the resources/will to do. i've always assumed you'd get a decent conversion as long as you were in the range temperature-wise 140s-160s due to the prevalent modification, and that more specific temps would determine your dextrin count, but i've never tested this for myself.

kudos to you, sir!

well now this thread has me thinking i may try the same thing as with briess 2-row and then with british or german 2-row. I have a snobby attitude about briess (never use it), but maybe it is unfounded.

 

[masonsjax]

Briess had tons of chaff and stems last time I bought a sack. YMMV.

 

[progmac]

Briess had tons of chaff and stems last time I bought a sack. YMMV.

Or maybe my bias isn't unfounded. I have basically no reason to buy briess when i can get german for 10 cents cheaper per pound or british for the same price at my LHBS

 

[Piratwolf]

Ok, finally tracked down the second source--head brewer at Summit. If you want to listen, it starts at 1:27:00 or so and continues in various veins for a good 7-10 minutes.

Interesting stuff!

 

[ishkabibble]

Ok, finally tracked down the second source--head brewer at Summit. If you want to listen, it starts at 1:27:00 or so and continues in various veins for a good 7-10 minutes.

Interesting stuff!

that's awesome. thanks so much for hunting that down! i had no idea there was such a wide degree of modification among malts, domestic and foreign.

 

[HopZombie99]

Longer mash times will give you a more fermentable wort. This may or may not be to your liking, depending on the style you are brewing.

 

[helibrewer]

I take gravity readings throughout my mash period and find that conversion is complete anywhere between 30 and 60 minutes using Belgian or German pilsner malt. I base completion on braukaiser.com's First Wort chart.

 

[Piratwolf]

Longer mash times will give you a more fermentable wort. This may or may not be to your liking, depending on the style you are brewing.

HopZombie, this is exactly what the pros are saying is no longer true with US 2-row. The guys from Flat Tail found that even if they start running off their wort as soon as the mash tun was full (approx 25 mins for them), they were unable to get much in the way of longer-chain sugars even when they mashed higher.

There may be reasons to mash longer (flavor, for example) but the basic idea is that you'll get a highly fermentable wort from US 2-row regardless of shorter mash or higher temp (within reason, of course).

 

[progmac]

that's the kind of experimentation i wish i had the resources/will to do. i've always assumed you'd get a decent conversion as long as you were in the range temperature-wise 140s-160s due to the prevalent modification, and that more specific temps would determine your dextrin count, but i've never tested this for myself.

kudos to you, sir!

yesterday while watching the bengals lose i drank one each of both the high temperature and low temperature versions of the octoberfest (one mashed at 148/FG 1.011, one at 160/FG 1.023) and you know, i am amazed at how much i like the one where i mashed super-high. when i think of beers with a FG of 1.02x, i think of early homebrewing attempts, old extract, and that ****ty munton yeast. but this is something very different. i thought it would be "cloying" or "overly sweet" but it really isn't those things.

i would recommend that anyone try mashing a beer at 158+. it is really interesting.

 

[masonsjax]

As I understand it, Lagunitas mashes many of their beers at 160F. I made the Lagunitas IPA clone recipe from CYBI, which I thought might be cloying with the high mash temp and high percentage of crystal malt, but it came out great. Very well balanced, I was impressed.

 

[Piratwolf]

yesterday while watching the bengals lose i drank one each of both the high temperature and low temperature versions of the octoberfest (one mashed at 148/FG 1.011, one at 160/FG 1.023) and you know, i am amazed at how much i like the one where i mashed super-high. when i think of beers with a FG of 1.02x, i think of early homebrewing attempts, old extract, and that ****ty munton yeast. but this is something very different. i thought it would be "cloying" or "overly sweet" but it really isn't those things.

i would recommend that anyone try mashing a beer at 158+. it is really interesting.

Great info, Progmac! You've touched on another thing that needs another look--the equation of high FG with a perception of sweetness or cloyingness. Jamil quotes several instances in his Can You Brew It series where either low-FG beers (~1.004!) tasted sweet or side-by-side blind tasting w/ national ranked judges where everyone found the higher OG beer to be dryer than the lower FG beer. On a similar note, the Dr. Homebrew show features two national ranked judges who have several times (most recently the DIPA in episode 16) recommended a more attenuative yeast to dry the beer out only to be told by the brewer that the FG actually was at the low end of the style range already.

Makes me wonder if maybe it's not so much that we BJCP judges are very crappy, but rather that many of the maxims we've all accepted as fact are--like the rest of life--a little more complex than simple rules can cover?

 

[bajaedition]

I have read with modern grains we can go 20 minutes if we want
but I go an hour
tried the 20 minute thing and did not hit target OG

there are so many things effecting brewing I think the guidelines we use were set up for "best" results.
Why fight it. I am sure we could boil for 15 minutes but for best results (hops utilization) we go 60, but we would get better results at 90, but then we would boil off too much.

I am sure the guidelines are for "best" results

Just my 2 cents

 

[Piratwolf]

I have read with modern grains we can go 20 minutes if we want
but I go an hour
tried the 20 minute thing and did not hit target OG

there are so many things effecting brewing I think the guidelines we use were set up for "best" results.
Why fight it. I am sure we could boil for 15 minutes but for best results (hops utilization) we go 60, but we would get better results at 90, but then we would boil off too much.

I am sure the guidelines are for "best" results

Just my 2 cents

Baja, I agree 100%! This isn't meant to be one of those manifestos on how to change the game or how I'm super clever. I still mash 60-90 mins each time. My only point is that sometimes we get unexpected results in spite of following the standard practices and I need to understand why. I've made some 2-row beers this past year or so mashed 154-156 and they kept finishing lower than expected. At first I thought I had an infection, but no off flavors developed. Made me crazy. Then I heard this stuff and it all became a lot more clear. Now i mix pils or MO with my 2-row when I want to make a beer with body b/c their enzymatic power is lower and therefore they react more to mash temp.
In short, it's just a little added knowledge to let us make the beers we intend to make... which to me is what it's all about!

 

[mattd2]

I have read with modern grains we can go 20 minutes if we want
but I go an hour
tried the 20 minute thing and did not hit target OG

there are so many things effecting brewing I think the guidelines we use were set up for "best" results.
Why fight it. I am sure we could boil for 15 minutes but for best results (hops utilization) we go 60, but we would get better results at 90, but then we would boil off too much.

I am sure the guidelines are for "best" results

Just my 2 cents

That is a challange right there - shortest AG brew
Heat strike water - 15-20 mins
BIAB Mash (with all the brewing water) until iodine test good - could be less than 5 - 15 mins
heat to boil - 15 mins
Boil with hop bursting to get IBUs in range - 15 mins
Cool - 15 mins

Total time = 1 hr 15 mins

Somebody do it!