Controllerless electric boil keggle

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whitescout said:
I have read countless posts on the best way to control electric elements. I looked into PWMs, and infinite control switches, etc... I believe that the most simple, cost effective way to control an element is with a PID, and SSR.

GreenMonti, I have read your posts concerning welding, and I believe that you are not lazy, and I think that you are wrong about the PID and SSR being too complicated.

If you think about the SSR being a contactor, and the PID being a switch to close the contactor, this probably the easiest way to think about it.

A bonus with the PID, is that you can manually control the output, or you can let the PID maintain output.


Just my .02
Click to expand...

For those seeking a automated or a semi automated system, a PID is essential.

Me, I want to be there and in it. I love mechanical things. I also love old school stuff. It always seems to be the stuff that just keeps going. There isn't a digital display to go funky or more connections to give grief due to corrosion. How about a bad crimp on the wires? Less is more in my eyes.

While I may be wrong about a PID and a SSR being complicated....I think that is because you understand it. I don't. I also don't see why you would want 2 devices to do the same thing that 1 device can do? This adds complexity to the system, and adds time to trouble shooting should something go crazy. Doesn't a PID require a temp sensor? How else would it know when to tell the SSR to fire? Yet another thing in the mix. When it comes to a simple boil kettle, a simple knob is all that is required.

I do think of a SSR as bieing a contactor because that's all it is. I understand relays. I have used them for a great number of things automotive. I used to install car alarms and all the other goodies.

I thank you for saying that I am not lazy. That is very kind of you to say. Prost Friend.:mug:
 
Yuri_Rage said:
You could get a single 5500W element and drive it with 240VAC until the boil starts. Then, use a SPDT switch to disconnect one leg of the 240VAC source and connect a neutral line in its place. You would then have 120VAC driving the element at 1375W.

I don't know if you could sustain a 15-20 gallon boil at 1375W, but a 5-10 gallon brew should be ok. I'm using 2750W to sustain a 17.5 gallon rolling boil on my rig.
Click to expand...
Could you do the same type of thing by putting the previously mentioned infinite switch onto 1 leg of the 5500W element. Then at full bore you would have 5500W and it would be adjustable from 2750W to 5500W for post boil control? Or would that mess with the GCFI?
 
McCuckerson said:
Could you do the same type of thing by putting the previously mentioned infinite switch onto 1 leg of the 5500W element. Then at full bore you would have 5500W and it would be adjustable from 2750W to 5500W for post boil control? Or would that mess with the GCFI?
Click to expand...

I would think that would mess with the GFCI trying to read the return current.
 
Here is my controller-less E-Keggle
20 amp infinite control with 4500 watt element
Please excuse the crud on my keggle.

DSCN0815.jpg


DSCN0820.jpg
 
If you're interested I can post instructions.
Mine has a welded bung to thread the element into, but you could use weldless fittings to secure the element. I had it that way until I broke down and finally welded the bung in.
 
dmfa200 said:
If you're interested I can post instructions.
Mine has a welded bung to thread the element into, but you could use weldless fittings to secure the element. I had it that way until I broke down and finally welded the bung in.
Click to expand...

I'd really like to know where you got the 20amp infinite switch 240V. Still looking for a 25A one to handle a 5500W element... but could get by fine with a 4500W element.
 
I would also like to see how this was made with 240v. I'm sure it would cost much less then using another PID to controll BK.
 
You could go with a pair of heating elements with one or both being controlled by an infinite switch. I looked around the net for a bit and couldn't come up with much above 15 amps. Two 15A switches might be more cost effective than a single 25 or 30 Amp version.
 
Actually, I think the switch is rated for 15 amps. My bad.
I could have sworn it was 20 amps but I have been known to be wrong. The specs on the switch are no longer legible.
I'm drawing 18 amps from my element.
Yeah, I'm pushing it, but I've brewed over a dozen times with this setup and no problems as of yet.
I can get 10 gallons boiling in about 50 to 60 minutes
7 1/2 gallons in 40 minutes
 
Is that 18 amps from your element at max, or just in general? Not sure exactly how the infinite switch works, but if it's like a PWM, you could probably stick a cheap 40A SSR in that box with room to spare....and your overcurrent worries are over!

How does it do with being stuck to the side of a 200F keg?
 
I'd gladly use a infinite switch and SSR, but I don't think it would work since most SSRs take a DC input to turn on and off, and even the ones that take AC would not be able to take enough amperage to let the infinite switch work.

The switch works by heating up a bimetal strip that will disconnect the two sources as it gets too hot, then re-connect as it cools. If I remember right.
 
The 240v 15A infinite switch seems perfect as a cheap alternative. You can use a 3500W element and should be able maintain a boil on 12 gallons. I think I might actually like this better than a PID and SSR. It seems to give better control of the boil off rate. I might just be a little unsure how a PID is used to control the boil off rate. It seems a PID used for the BK is just trying to maintain 212F. Maybe someone with a better understanding could clear up the use of a PID on a BK.

Thanks for the idea on the infinite switch though!
 
If you get the right PID it will work in temp control mode and manual mode. Manual mode will let you set the percentage that the element is on. I normally run around 55-60% during the boil with a 5500 Watt element and a 7 gal boil.

Just wish there was an infinite switch that could control the 5500W element, would be simpler on the boil kettle.
 
ScubaSteve said:
Is that 18 amps from your element at max, or just in general? Not sure exactly how the infinite switch works, but if it's like a PWM, you could probably stick a cheap 40A SSR in that box with room to spare....and your overcurrent worries are over!

How does it do with being stuck to the side of a 200F keg?
Click to expand...

I'd have to refer to my notes but I believe I'm drawing 18.3 amps max

If you'll look the switch itself does not contact the wall of my keggle. It is installed on the opposite side of the project box.
There are washers that space the box off the wall of keggle so there is very little surface area touching the kettle itself.
Like I said, 12+ batches so far and no issues whatsoever.
 
GTengineer10 said:
The 240v 15A infinite switch seems perfect as a cheap alternative. You can use a 3500W element and should be able maintain a boil on 12 gallons. I think I might actually like this better than a PID and SSR. It seems to give better control of the boil off rate. I might just be a little unsure how a PID is used to control the boil off rate. It seems a PID used for the BK is just trying to maintain 212F. Maybe someone with a better understanding could clear up the use of a PID on a BK.

Thanks for the idea on the infinite switch though!
Click to expand...

$15 used infinite switch
$15 4500 watt element
$ 4 project box
$ 2 pilot light
$ 0 cord(free)
 
conpewter said:
Cool, so yes a 15amp control. Do you have a GFCI on this circuit?
Click to expand...

I know some of you are going to scold me, but no, not at the moment.
Just a 30amp circuit breaker.
If it makes any one feel better it's grounded properly.
 
dmfa200 said:
I know some of you are going to scold me, but no, not at the moment.
Just a 30amp circuit breaker.
If it makes any one feel better it's grounded properly.
Click to expand...

Not to scold, but to inform anyone that may read this and take it out of context-- having it properly grounded does nothing to solve the problem that a GFCI is used for. The GFCI in basic terms reads a difference in current running through the separate legs, i.e. your body becoming a receptacle for current, and shuts off if this is detected. A ground cannot help you if this occurs.

Throw in a gfci breaker to this setup though, and very nice, easy, and safe!

:mug:
 
cyberbackpacker said:
Not to scold, but to inform anyone that may read this and take it out of context-- having it properly grounded does nothing to solve the problem that a GFCI is used for. The GFCI in basic terms reads a difference in current running through the separate legs, i.e. your body becoming a receptacle for current, and shuts off if this is detected. A ground cannot help you if this occurs.

Throw in a gfci breaker to this setup though, and very nice, easy, and safe!

:mug:
Click to expand...

I hope I didn't mislead anyone by making that statement.
I know I am taking a potential risk by not having a GFCI installed.
Thank you for reminding me. I don't think I should be taking any chances
with my life.
I am going to put in a GFCI before I brew again.
 
Good to use a GFCI if you can. I have it on my system (inline GFCI in the 30 amp cord). I know you can get buy without it, and if you build everything right it is still pretty safe, but better safe than sorry.

Also I found out that you can use an infinite switch with a relay. Not sure of the mechanics of it but was told that is how most higher amp applications are done if you want to use an infinite switch.
 
I think that you're onto something. I did a bit of digging and came up with this:

http://www.duralite.com/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=87

It doubles the cost, but ups the current capacity to 30 Amps. You'll have to make sure the coil and load voltage is 240 VAC.

I am assuming the rate that the bimetallic strip oscillates is going to be dependent on load since it is a conductor and makes or breaks the circuit. In that case, you'd probably need a pair of heating elements; the first being controlled by the infinite switch and then the other will be controlled by a relay connected to the contacts for the first heating element. You might have better control just using a pair of infinite switches and a pair of elements to reduce the heat input fluctuation. But, I'm a mechanical engineer and not an electrical one, so you'll have to take my opinion for what it is worth to you.
 
I think this is why I just went back to a PID, at $40 or something like that it wasn't that much more expensive since I needed the SSR either way.

The infinite switch plus SSR would save a little money. But as mentioned by pvtschultz you'd have to make sure the infinite switch gets a big enough load, and your SSR is rated to take that sort of amperage as a signal. With the smallish difference in cost, the PID gives you a lot more versatility... unless I can find a stand-alone 30 amp infinite switch.
 
If I could put together a single keg (with plug for optional 2nd keg/kettle) PID controlled electric boil kettle for around $450 shipped, do you think there would be any buyers?

That would be with
15' 30 amp (240V) GFCI protected cord
Stainless keg
installed element
bottom drain (Sanke attachment)
1" - 3 piece valve, reduced to 1/2" camlock (or other QD)
Hop screen (whole hops)
PID Controller in attached project box, with temp probe

So that would be either your BIAB single vessel system. Or buy additional keg with just element and cord to plug in to the controller, so you can have your HLT/BK combination, but only one controller. Would need a 4 prong 30amp outlet (like for newer dryers).

Might have to build mine before I can really explain it, so I could have pictures.
 

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