Confusion... Mash and sparging

[TastyAdventure]

I batch sparge, and I've been trying to improve my efficency. I've was getting 60%, then got it up to 65.
I use a pretty handy brewing app called Fermenticus Brew Log. It calculates my strike volumes and temps, my mash outs, and sparge amounts, always yields the correct volume for pre and post boil. I can ajust factors like my system's equipment wort loss, mash thickness, boil off rate, etc. It has constants of grain absorptiod the like...
I use a 10 gal Gatorade cooler. Took the faucet out and replaced with a bung, copper tube and stainless steel braid (toilet water source tube). I've noticed the past few times that the SS braid has been floating in the mash, not draining wort from as much of the floor of the MLT as possible. So this time added a weight to the end to keep it down...
I just did another and ended up getting 67% eff. - an improvement! But 3 gravity points lower than my goal of 1.068. (i've been making recipes anticipating 70% eff.) I mashed at 1.8 qt/lb (meant to be 1.5 but missed my temp.) adjusted sparge amount accordingly. After I ran off all my sparge, I decided to throw one more quart in the MLT to save for making starters.
Here's where I'm confused: the last extra quart I ran out of the MLT had a gravity of 1.030! Shouldn't there not be many sugars left at that point?

Would mashing much thicker and sparging more help?

This last batch, my mash out only brought it to 160.
My thermometer and hydrometer are both calibrated.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[DurtyChemist]

Mash thinner. More water to diffuse the sugar into. I just did a BIAB with 3 quarts per pound (7.5 gallons for 10 lbs of 2 row) and hit 78% mash efficiency. Pre boil gravity was 1.044 at 60 for my hydrometer. 75 minute mash and the pH was 5.3-5.4 after 20 minutes according to the pH strip color.

 

[doby]

Before draining sparge stir, stir,stir

 

[acidrain]

Batch sparge? Do you do 2 sparges? Are you stirring?

 

[TastyAdventure]

I batch sparge with 1. And yes I stir at mash out and before running off the sparge


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Marc77]

Can you include pictures of your MLT? I've heard of 1.5 quarts per pound but getting up to 1.8 seems like an awful lot.

Is your braid all the way to the back of the MLT? The reason I ask about the braid is that the water could be running down the side to the braid instead of through the grain. But I'm sure you've got that figured out.

That's all I can add at this point because I'm actually just about to start my all grain adventures.

 

[sumbrewindude]

1) Tried the braid, then a manifold. Got MUCH better numbers with the manifold. Couldn't tell you why, just did - same crush, same technique, etc.
2) Drain slower *except for the batch sparge*. My inital runnings at 1.5qt/lb took nearly forever to drain off, my sparge water was at temp by the time I finally was ready to add it. For the batch sparge I just dumped it it, stirred like mad for a good 5 min, then emptied the cooler.

 

[Marc77]

If it was a single tube manifold the only thing I can think is that the stainless steel braid is getting crushed. If there are several points of entry on your manifold this is why you're getting better efficiency:
http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-2.html

I based the mlt I'm building on Palmer's appendix D designs. But draining slow is the way to go. It's a pain in the butt but it lets the water pull more sugar from grain. I can't remember the rate but I'm sure with some searching around here it can be found. Something like a gallon a minute, a quart a minute...just can't remember....bah!!!

 

[GotPushrods]

As for efficiency, there is crush size and everything else.

Crush size determines your efficiency on the large scale.

Everything else will tweak it a point or 2...here and there.

LHBS crush I presume?

 

[kenmcchord]

As for efficiency, there is crush size and everything else.

Crush size determines your efficiency on the large scale.

Everything else will tweak it a point or 2...here and there.

LHBS crush I presume?

I've heard this before and was just talking with a friend of mine that brews about getting our own grain mill. I don't really understand the crush size having that much of an effect on efficiency. Which way gives better efficiency, having a tighter smaller crush or the otherway around? Sorry for the noob question, I just don't seem to understand what the crush has to do with that.

 

[GotPushrods]

I've heard this before and was just talking with a friend of mine that brews about getting our own grain mill. I don't really understand the crush size having that much of an effect on efficiency. Which way gives better efficiency, having a tighter smaller crush or the otherway around? Sorry for the noob question, I just don't seem to understand what the crush has to do with that.

With large chunks of malt, the starch and resulting sugars get locked up inside those pieces. A smaller crush will give much more surface area, and allow the sugars to be available to dissolve into the mash and be carried into the kettle.

The downside is risk of stuck sparge, which is why most LHBSs give you a nice "safe" crush.

 

[kenmcchord]

With large chunks of malt, the starch and resulting sugars get locked up inside those pieces. A smaller crush will give much more surface area, and allow the sugars to be available to dissolve into the mash and be carried into the kettle.

The downside is risk of stuck sparge, which is why most LHBSs give you a nice "safe" crush.

So a smaller crush coupled with rice hulls would yield a good efficiency and prevent a stuck sparge, am I reading that right? Thanks for your reply, I will be putting a grain mill on my short list of things to get this year.

ken

 

[GotPushrods]

So a smaller crush coupled with rice hulls would yield a good efficiency and prevent a stuck sparge, am I reading that right? Thanks for your reply, I will be putting a grain mill on my short list of things to get this year.

ken

Yes, although you may not need the rice hulls. Everyone's manifold design seems to be a little different. As Denny would say, "crush 'till you're scared" and find your sticking-point. Mine is about 0.030". I always crush at 0.032" add rice hulls if I have flaked grains in grist.

Then there are those who condition their grain with a little water before crushing, but that's a whole different discussion. You might want to search that too. I don't condition since I crush the night before I brew (I mill outside and I like my neighbors), otherwise I'd probably experiment with that.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

The other option is add another sparging step. Thicken up your mash a little so you require more sparging water, and then split that sparging volume into 2 steps.

So:
mash at something around 1.25 qt/lb
after mash, add enough to get to mashout temp (this is key for efficiency)
drain
add half sparge volume, stir like crazy drain
add the other half, stir like crazy drain

Assuming it isn't the braid causing problems (switch to false bottom perhaps. I had great luck with AIH's style before switching to stout-tanks), you should be able to get to high 70's.

 

[Terek]

I have never liked braids, they don't gather wort from everywhere inside the tun, just right down the middle. I us a homemade manifold from PVC that zig zags around the entire bottom of the tun to gather from everywhere.
Do you get a little crater in the middle of your grain bed? If so, that is because you are only drawing threw that little area. Drawing wort from more areas will greatly increase eff. With my setup I currently get around 75-80% but I have my grain crush down to a science too. That makes a big diff. As well.

Below is a pic of my buddies "crater" in his tun from a braid before I built him a manifold. I will post a pic when I get home of the one I built. It works great and costs very little (I use the stuff at work, so it cost me nothing

 

[GotPushrods]

The other option is add another sparging step. Thicken up your mash a little so you require more sparging water, and then split that sparging volume into 2 steps.

I was a double-batch sparger long ago. After experimenting myself and finding less than 2 points of efficiency, I will never do it again unless forced to. A single sparge with attention to all the fundamentals (time/temp/pH/STIRRING) is plenty. The crush is still, far and away, the most influential factor.

...add enough to get to mashout temp (this is key for efficiency)

Strictly speaking in terms of efficiency, the mashout has almost no effect.
For example, see: http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

Of course, there are other benefits to the mashout.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I see a huge difference with vs without mashing out

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Phlyborn]

Consider changing to a manifold. I'm consistently hitting 75-80% with LHBS crush.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[JonW]

I don't even measure my mill gap. I crank it down until it starts to bind, then open it back up a hair. My grain is pretty well pulverized.

I use a Blichman false bottom and do continuous recirculation. If I'm using wheat or MO, I'll add some rice hulls just to be safe.

I average 80-85% efficiency.

 

[BackAlley]

I think you were on to the culprit right for the start. 1.030 on your one and only sparge means there's sugar left in the MLT. Two sparges will help. Manifold vs braid means nothing in batch sparging as long as the braid doesn't get clogged up. Palmer's appendix D only applies to fly sparging.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[TastyAdventure]

So I brewed today and had great success with my new method. I mashed at 1.4 qt/lb. and split my sparge into 2 batches. My efficiency was a whopping 82%!! That's a significant increase from last week's 67%.
I was diligent about making sure I let my mashout sit for a full 10 min before running off, same for both sparge batches. Stirred well in between every step too. All stuff I've done before, except the 2 batches, I was just more diligent about my times and stirring this time.

The 2 batch sparge is the way to go for better extraction!!

Now if I could only make up for those 5 IBUs I'm missing from the more sugary boil, plus a few extra to make up for the extra .011 gravity points...

Thanks for the suggestions!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[VladOfTrub]

I'm not sure if mash out is beneficial with batch sparge. Any starch not ground fine enough for enzymes to work on burst around 165F. Enzymes become denatured around 168F. The starch in solution can't convert and ends up in the bottle. I'm not sure how starch affects density. If it has affect on density, the increase in efficiency may have come from starch. The readings may be false. Mash out, somehow got moved into English method. It is a process, primarily, used in decoction method. In the decoction method mash is boiled, causing starch to burst and then it is converted later in the process. That is one of the reasons why a decoction has higher OG and cleaner, more stable final product. Even in decoction a mash out isn't always used. It depends on what is being brewed and economics.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I figured it was due to solubility or something. The wort gets less viscous, and so sticks to the grain less. Regardless, when I used to batch sparge, the mashing out helped

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[XXXBrewDude]

I don't batch sparge so I'm a bit confused with the response to batch sparge twice to get the remaining sugar. Won't this just yield more wart with an even lower preboil SG ? I'm also not sure why efficiency is such a big deal. Just up the grain bill and except it. Crush, ph, water per lb grain all have an impact on efficiency. If you believe you have al of these in check, switch to fly sparge. Adds 1.5 hours to my brew day but I consistently hit >90%.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Terek]

I don't batch sparge so I'm a bit confused with the response to batch sparge twice to get the remaining sugar. Won't this just yield more wart with an even lower preboil SG ? I'm also not sure why efficiency is such a big deal. Just up the grain bill and except it. Crush, ph, water per lb grain all have an impact on efficiency. If you believe you have al of these in check, switch to fly sparge. Adds 1.5 hours to my brew day but I consistently hit >90%.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

You take your vol of sparge water and cut it in half and sparge twice. Ex. If your sparge calls for 4 gal you sparge twice with 2 gal. It does greatly increase eff.

Efficiency is a big deal for people who don't have unlimited amounts of money. I can't afford fancy pumps and such, or buying more grain when not needed, among other things. Buy maximizing my eff., using homemade and sometimes free equipment, washing yeast, buying in bulk and getting my bottles from friends and or the trash, I brew for a fraction of the price and get just as good of quality of beer.

 

[XXXBrewDude]

Cool, thanx for clarifying on the batch sparge. I would bet if you stayed with a single sparge but limited your runoff over a period of say .... Half and hour to an hour you would see higher yields . Giving the sugars more time to become soluble May be the answer


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[max384]

The biggest factor for me increasing my efficiency was the crush. I was getting absolutely dismal efficiencies in the 50s% range until I bought my own mill and started crushing. Then I shot up to the high-60s. Then after setting the crush as fine as I'd dare go I was into the mid-70s. Switching from batch to fly sparging increased my efficiency a few points, and paying closer attention to temps and fine-tuning my process helped too. I now average 80-85% brewhouse efficiency.

I crush my grains pretty fine. In fact, much finer than online pictures of a "proper crush" that I found. The reason I mill so fine is because I don't fear a stuck sparge. In fact, I get stuck sparges all the time. They're SO easy to fix that it's a complete non-issue. I just use the blower tip on my air compressor and stick that in the spigot on my MLT. It blows bubbles through my manifold and instantly fixes my stuck sparge. Only thing is that I have to vorlauf again, which only takes a minute or so anyhow.

 

[Terek]

Cool, thanx for clarifying on the batch sparge. I would bet if you stayed with a single sparge but limited your runoff over a period of say .... Half and hour to an hour you would see higher yields . Giving the sugars more time to become soluble May be the answer


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Great advice. I try to run my tun as slow as possible, like an old man pissin. Usually takes 15-20 min per sparge. The reason I do 2 is you get to stir it again and put hot water back in. You could just keep the lid shut and stir part way threw. Doing 2 also helps prevent a stuck sparge. I tend to crush right on that fine line and get stuck easily

 

[XXXBrewDude]

Hey max, what's your grain to water ratio? Do you adjust for ph? I would think you would hit >85% eff?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[max384]

Hey max, what's your grain to water ratio? Do you adjust for ph? I would think you would hit >85% eff?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I do 1.33 qt/lb mash thickness. I don't adjust for pH. In fact, I use tap water that has never been tested. My next step in improving my brewing process is to take charge of my water chemistry. I know this is a deficiency.

To be honest, I'm very happy with my efficiency numbers. I'm at about 90% mash efficiency and I leave a lot of sediment behind so that I average 80-85% brewhouse efficiency. I'm completely fine with maintaining these numbers.

 

[XXXBrewDude]

Sounds good. 90+ mash eff for a fly sparge is normal. Water Chemistry is easy. Check your local water report if your not on a well and go from there.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew