Conflicting advice from LHBS and HBT...

Brewer's Friend 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
J

JasonScott

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
25
Reaction score
2
Location
Plano
Hi guys,

I'm making a lager for the first time. (the Noche Buena recipe from Papazian) When I was picking the brain of one of the guys at my LHBS he recommended starting the fermentation around 65 degrees and gradually lower the temperature each day until it reaches around 55 degrees. Once the beer had sat at 55 for a few days he recommended raising the temperature a few degrees each day until it was back to 65. From what I've read on HBT, that temperature seems a little high.

Is 45 degrees for fermentation, 60 degrees for diacetyl rest, and then 35 for for lagering a better way? The Joy of Homebrewing didn't mention any lagering for this recipe and stated "bottle within two weeks". Is lagering for a darker beer necessary?

Thanks and I appreciate your insight.
 
JasonScott said:
Hi guys,

I'm making a lager for the first time. (the Noche Buena recipe from Papazian) When I was picking the brain of one of the guys at my LHBS he recommended starting the fermentation around 65 degrees and gradually lower the temperature each day until it reaches around 55 degrees. Once the beer had sat at 55 for a few days he recommended raising the temperature a few degrees each day until it was back to 65. From what I've read on HBT, that temperature seems a little high.
Click to expand...

That's not very good advice.

Is 45 degrees for fermentation, 60 degrees for diacetyl rest, and then 35 for for lagering a better way? The Joy of Homebrewing didn't mention any lagering for this recipe and stated "bottle within two weeks". Is lagering for a darker beer necessary?

Thanks and I appreciate your insight.
Click to expand...

This is better advice.

My personal advice is to pitch your yeast at your fermentation temperatures, hold it there, and do the D-Rest if needed. If your yeast need to ferment at 50F, pitch at 50F and hold it throughout fermentation like you would with an ale. This will reduce the amount and chances of off-flavors from a hot fermentation. Pitching a large, healthy, and active starter is critical.
 
Some people have had different experiences, but my lagers have definitely tasted better after a few weeks of lagering. They weren't horrible or undrinkable, but they were much cleaner tasting after the lagering period if i was able to leave them alone for that long. This could all be a factor of yeast strain, yeast health, pitching rate, ferm temp, etc. So your batches might be different than mine.
 
Any advice to pitch lager yeast at temps warmer than ideal fermentation zones is designed to compensate for inadequate yeast cells such as trying to pitch a vial/smack pack without making a large starter or dumping dry yeast directly without proper rehydration. Do it right and pitch cold.
 
HBT > LHBS in all cases. Never forget this.

Pitch 1.5-2.0 million cells per ml per degree P at or below fermentation temperature. When you are 5-10 points above expected FG, raise your temp to somewhere north of 60 until fermentation is complete. Rack to secondary, crash as low as you can without freezing, leave it as long as you can resist, keg and drink.

D-rest is not always needed (the "north of 60" step above). In fact, it's almost never needed. But it (a) doesn't cost you anything or affect your beer quality in any negative way, (b) could save you a crapload of heartache if you ever do get diacetyl, and (c) helps fermentation finish off strong, which can be important to new-ish lager brewers since they typically underpitch.

I love pitching massive at or just under the bottom of the recommended temperature range then grinding out a lager fermentation for about three weeks. No d-rest unless I'm having trouble getting to FG (depends on the strain). Super-clean results.

Lagering can really improve beers. I'm enjoying a pilsner these days that's gone from "undrinkable garbage" to "really quite nice" in the last six weeks or so. Stored around 36 degrees.

Good luck!
 
osagedr said:
HBT > LHBS in all cases. Never forget this.
Click to expand...
Depends on your LHBS or the person answering your post on HBT. I've seen plenty of bad posts here, but usually someone will chime in with the correct answer. You don't have that advantage at your LHBS. There's no one there to step in and set things straight.
 
AnOldUR said:
Depends on your LHBS or the person answering your post on HBT. I've seen plenty of bad posts here, but usually someone will chime in with the correct answer. You don't have that advantage at your LHBS. There's no one there to step in and set things straight.
Click to expand...

Unless you constantly check the funny things / stupid comments thread daily for overheard LHBS converastions that give you a feeling of Dejavu and weren't interupted with sane advice :D
 
Bobby_M said:
Any advice to pitch lager yeast at temps warmer than ideal fermentation zones is designed to compensate for inadequate yeast cells such as trying to pitch a vial/smack pack without making a large starter or dumping dry yeast directly without proper rehydration. Do it right and pitch cold.
Click to expand...

This 100%. Your LHBS guy is giving you poor advice.

In addition to good temp management, lagers need really good aeration/oxygenation and basically TWICE the yeast pitch rate of a comparable gravity ale. If you do it right, you don't need to follow the risky practice of starting it warm.

I like to pitch a few degrees below my target ferment temp and let it come up. After about 7-8 days, I'll start to check gravity and mouthfeel every few days. Once it hits 80-85% to expected FG, it gets raised to 61-62*F for a 3-5 day D-rest. Then it gets checked again for those same two things.

I like to lager at least six weeks at 35-36*F.
 
mesa4234 said:
I tend to agree with this...but if you ask my LHBS, they would say the opposite!
Click to expand...

i like all of the guys at my brew store but i have learned to not ask for any advice and ignore any given. there must be thousands of threads on here that start out with "my LHBS said that..." followed by some disaster. i wish i knew why this is the case but it is an exception that brew store employees know what they are talking about.
 
eastoak said:
i like all of the guys at my brew store but i have learned to not ask for any advise and ignore any given. there must be thousands of threads on here that start out with "my LHBS said that..." followed by some disaster. i wish i knew why this is the case but it is an exception that brew store employees know what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

I guess that I should consider myself fortunate that I can rely on the advice given by the owner of my LHBS (https://www.tylersbrewing.com/)
 
BigFloyd said:
This 100%. Your LHBS guy is giving you poor advice.

In addition to good temp management, lagers need really good aeration/oxygenation and basically TWICE the yeast pitch rate of a comparable gravity ale. If you do it right, you don't need to follow the risky practice of starting it warm.

I like to pitch a few degrees below my target ferment temp and let it come up. After about 7-8 days, I'll start to check gravity and mouthfeel every few days. Once it hits 80-85% to expected FG, it gets raised to 61-62*F for a 3-5 day D-rest. Then it gets checked again for those same two things.

I like to lager at least six weeks at 35-36*F.
Click to expand...

This!!!!
 
osagedr said:
HBT > LHBS in all cases. Never forget this.
Click to expand...

The reasons why many LHBS have a bad reputation are probably twofold: a) many are owned/operated by people who started brewing in the 70s-90s and are following the "it worked then, so why change" philosophy - ignoring all the amazing progress in our hobby. b) LHBS aren't very profitable and often rely on cheap, uninformed labor.

But many people who work at LHBS these days learned how to brew with Palmer's book, Basic Brewing, the Brewing Network, and HBT. Many stay up to date with the latest developments in both the amateur and professional brewing realms. Many work with or have brewed with local brewpubs and breweries. And finally, we sample more homebrews in a month than most other people do in a year or more.

One of the key things to assess when talking to a customer is their skill level and their "attitude" towards brewing, and adjust the advice you give to their needs. That advice may not the best advice for everyone, but it should be the best advice for their situation.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, the advice was probably motivated by a desire to maximize yeast cell growth. I wouldn't give the same advice - there are better ways to ensure a healthy population of yeast for a lager ferment.
 
To repeat what has already been made clear. HBT > local brew shop advise.

The great advantage of the advise here is that you are getting information from people that "been there and done that" much more than the advise you'll get from a local shop. It's kind of like playing who wants to be a millionaire except the audience is full of people that know the answer. So what are you going to do? Ask the audience or call a friend?
 
On another note - the advice the LHBS is giving you for lagers is probably a biased because:

1) They want your fermentation to kick off as quickly as possible so that you don't potentially blame them or their products for poor fermentation activity. Since lagers usually ferment at a slower rate than ales, they probably are tired of having people come in and complain that fermentation either hasn't started or is slower than what they're used to and don't want the blame put on their product (the yeast).
 
In my experience, there are three kinds of people at LHBSs. 1. The guy who was an avid brewer 20 years ago when he opened the store. Due to being very busy running a store, he brews less and less and more importantly, is unable to keep up with new trends and info as they become available. These are the dudes who would kick you out of the store for asking about BIAB. 2. The second type is the minimum wage employee who learned everything they know about brewing from hearing the old dude talk to customers. 3. This guy opened a homebrew shop within the same year that he brewed his first batch. Business minded first, brewing knowledge second. They know just enough to give extract brewing advice for the most part and are full of anecdotes they heard 3rd hand.

I'm not suggesting there are not diamonds in the rough but the vast majority fall into the above categories. Once in a while you find a place that employs really passionate homebrewers and it's great to stumble upon.

I agree that there are a few cases where they know the right thing to do but are hesitant to dish it out. If a customer came in asking about brewing their first lager and the LHBS honestly advised them to make a starter to get the correct pitching rate, they may just walk out. Unfortunately they have to dumb everything down to suit the laziest brewer that may walk in.
 
A note about lagering...

If you keg, you can ignore. If you bottle, err on the long side for lagering. German Pilsner is one of my fav styles, and I've brewed the same recipe a few times, including identical fermentation schedules. I have temp controlled fermentation. Still get different behavior out of the fermentation / conditioning.

The second to last time I brewed it, it was great after a month of lagering. The most recent, after a month it just wasn't ready yet. Between 6 and 8 weeks, it got there though. This is about a 1.050 beer.

If you keg, it just means that you have to wait a few weeks, even after carbing, before it is ready. If you bottle, though, it is just easier to bulk lager until it is ready.

I would guess that a lot of knowledge of brewing is based on giant batches, where scrimping on the yeast pitch saves real money. So, they perfected the way of pitching less but still getting good (hopefully) beer. On the homebrewer scale, yeast is cheap. So, pitch a crap ton of it, and you won't have as many issues.

I pitch AT fermentation temp, and hold it. For bigger lagers, maybe let it rise a few degs F toward the end to make sure the final product isn't too sweet.
 
I'll probably repeat what the sages above have already said, but maybe redundancy indicates veracity?


  • With lagers, pitch at fermentation temps. Lagers should be fermented cold. My lagers stall as I approach mid 40's, so I lager at 50F to be safe.
  • Use as much yeast as you can. If you can't make a starter, buy extra packs of yeast.
  • Don't freak out if the fermentation doesn't get started for 2 or 3 days. We all love to see our ales raging in a few hours, but lagers don't typically do that.
  • Give the lager more time to ferment out. I give my lagers at least 3 weeks in the primary. Ales finish at 2 weeks like clockwork, but I don't assume a lager will be done at 3 - check with hydrometer before bottling or kegging.
  • I've always done a diacetyl rest for a few days after fermentation (raise temp 15 degrees). I've never had a diacetyl problem, so I'll keep doing that.
  • Cold crash for 2 or 3 days at 32F.
 
AnOldUR said:
Depends on your LHBS or the person answering your post on HBT. I've seen plenty of bad posts here, but usually someone will chime in with the correct answer. You don't have that advantage at your LHBS. There's no one there to step in and set things straight.
Click to expand...

We should start an outreach program where people take shifts camping out at LHBSs waiting for some really horrible advice being dished out. Then you pounce and set 'em straight. It makes me feel like a total A-hole but I've done this at Home Depot and Lowes so many times. One time was when the tile aisle "guy" told a customer they can just use construction adhesive to put ceramic tile directly over linoleum.
 
BadWolfBrewing said:
A note about lagering...

If you keg, you can ignore. If you bottle, err on the long side for lagering.
Click to expand...

Question.....

I've never lagered, but have recently re-purposed a freezer as a fermentation/cold crash chamber, so I'm considering a lager in the near future.

I recently started kegging again, but have a few folks that I share beer with - in the bottle, so the idea is to bottle 12-18 and keg the rest for myself. The process will be to ferment at the appropriate temp, do a diacetyl rest, rack to secondary with geletin, and cold crash for 2+ days ... for ales anyway.

The question is, if I go ahead and keg/bottle, will the lager process still be viable in the keg and in the bottle? Meaning... keg/bottle, place in a fridge or freezer at 35 degrees for 3-6 weeks.

Thanks
 
smccarter said:
Question.....

I've never lagered, but have recently re-purposed a freezer as a fermentation/cold crash chamber, so I'm considering a lager in the near future.

I recently started kegging again, but have a few folks that I share beer with - in the bottle, so the idea is to bottle 12-18 and keg the rest for myself. The process will be to ferment at the appropriate temp, do a diacetyl rest, rack to secondary with geletin, and cold crash for 2+ days ... for ales anyway.

The question is, if I go ahead and keg/bottle, will the lager process still be viable in the keg and in the bottle? Meaning... keg/bottle, place in a fridge or freezer at 35 degrees for 3-6 weeks.

Thanks
Click to expand...


I don't see an issue, but is there a reason you don't want to bottle from the keg? A crap ton easier, for many reason. If you have faucets, get a bottle filler plug. If you have a cobra tap, a bottle wand fits into it perfectly.

I built a counter-pressure bottle filler, but to be honest it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. I think if I was trying to store / age in the bottle it might though. When I bottle, it is usually just to take to a party that night. Hell, I don't even bother to sanitize in that case...


I am with bobby_m. My LHBS, even though it is one of the big ones, has given me their fair share of bad advice. I regularly b*tch out the HD / Lowes employees, their crappy advice could get somebody killed.
 
smccarter said:
Question.....

I've never lagered, but have recently re-purposed a freezer as a fermentation/cold crash chamber, so I'm considering a lager in the near future.

I recently started kegging again, but have a few folks that I share beer with - in the bottle, so the idea is to bottle 12-18 and keg the rest for myself. The process will be to ferment at the appropriate temp, do a diacetyl rest, rack to secondary with geletin, and cold crash for 2+ days ... for ales anyway.

The question is, if I go ahead and keg/bottle, will the lager process still be viable in the keg and in the bottle? Meaning... keg/bottle, place in a fridge or freezer at 35 degrees for 3-6 weeks.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Keg the whole batch. Lager it and gas it up with CO2.

Bottle what you want with this - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/
 
While LHBS employees are notorious for giving bad advice, this forum generates its fair share of bad advice. For example, rinsing yeast with boiled tap water is really bad advice, but it is preached as gospel on HBT.
 
Bobby_M said:
Not that its the end all, but ask the guy giving advice how many BJCP sanctioned medals his beers have won.
Click to expand...


Brewing is a big world, and lots of store people are more wine people, ale people, cheese people, mead, cider, etc. they don't necessarily know everything.
 
EarlyAmateurZymurgist said:
...For example, rinsing yeast with boiled tap water is really bad advice, but it is preached as gospel on HBT.
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate further? Can you give a better routine for reusing yeast (that does not include using a conical or direct pitching into a new ferment)?
 
mattd2 said:
Care to elaborate further? Can you give a better routine for reusing yeast (that does not include using a conical or direct pitching into a new ferment)?
Click to expand...

I too am curious.
 
mattd2 said:
Care to elaborate further? Can you give a better routine for reusing yeast (that does not include using a conical or direct pitching into a new ferment)?
Click to expand...

dobe12 said:
I too am curious.
Click to expand...

Scoop slurry into a sanitized jar with a sanitized spoon. If you get some of the remaining beer, that's even better. pH and alcohol in the beer is much more sanitary to store yeast in than water.

I've switched from the water washing in pint jars to just scooping up slurry/beer into 4oz canning jars.

Easier, quicker, better...
 
AZ_IPA said:
Scoop slurry into a sanitized jar with a sanitized spoon. If you get some of the remaining beer, that's even better. pH and alcohol in the beer is much more sanitary to store yeast in than water.

I've switched from the water washing in pint jars to just scooping up slurry/beer into 4oz canning jars.

Easier, quicker, better...
Click to expand...

What about trub/hop material coming alone for the ride? Would acid washing not be the best way to store yeast, maybe even starsan can be used (not putting my hand up yet to research).
Next time I got to save yeast I may just leave a bit more beer behind, swirl to get a loose slurry wait for it to settle a bit then pour off the "good" yeast into a sanitised jar.
 
mattd2 said:
What about trub/hop material coming alone for the ride? Would acid washing not be the best way to store yeast, maybe even starsan can be used (not putting my hand up yet to research).
Next time I got to save yeast I may just leave a bit more beer behind, swirl to get a loose slurry wait for it to settle a bit then pour off the "good" yeast into a sanitised jar.
Click to expand...

the small amount of trub and hops (with my system i don't have hops going into the fermentor) is not going to affect anything in the new beer. you are getting lots of break material in the fermentor as it is, way more than the 1/4 to 1/2 cup of slurry is going to have.
i would bet that there are no commercial breweries washing yeast with boiled water, not one. i think some do acid wash the slurry but that is something i don't think the average home brewer is going to get into.
 
eastoak said:
the small amount of trub and hops (with my system i don't have hops going into the fermentor) is not going to affect anything in the new beer. you are getting lots of break material in the fermentor as it is, way more than the 1/4 to 1/2 cup of slurry is going to have.
i would bet that there are no commercial breweries washing yeast with boiled water, not one. i think some do acid wash the slurry but that is something i don't think the average home brewer is going to get into.
Click to expand...

Sounds like anyone with a fridge, pH meter and stirplate could acid wash (wash yeast fro 1 hour below 5°C and pH 2) but the couple of sources I read said it must be completed ready to pitch imediately and not stored - and it can have an impact on yeast health. One goning as far as saying it is not worth it.
Makes me think though - if you really want to wash instead of using boiled water why not use starsan?
 
mattd2 said:
Sounds like anyone with a fridge, pH meter and stirplate could acid wash (wash yeast fro 1 hour below 5°C and pH 2) but the couple of sources I read said it must be completed ready to pitch imediately and not stored - and it can have an impact on yeast health. One goning as far as saying it is not worth it.
Makes me think though - if you really want to wash instead of using boiled water why not use starsan?
Click to expand...

i don't know about that but it would be interesting to see if it works.
 
i've been re-pitching slurry right out of the fermentor for so long i have no doubt about it's effectiveness. even if star san works i wouldn't do it, too lazy.
 
eastoak said:
i've been re-pitching slurry right out of the fermentor for so long i have no doubt about it's effectiveness. even if star san works i wouldn't do it, too lazy.
Click to expand...

As in brew a batch the same day as bottling/kegging? or scoop out the slurry and store in a jar for a couple of weeks?
 

Similar threads

Bria
Stuck fermentation? Dead yeast? Help!
Replies
2
Views
1K
Bria
Bria
Tony B
Curious fermentation
Replies
15
Views
1K
redrocker652002
R
Tony B
First batch
Replies
10
Views
817
Kornssj
Kornssj
CyberFox
No aroma from 6 oz dry hop. What gives?!
Replies
38
Views
4K
CyberFox
CyberFox
dayfox
New biabasket set-up/fermentation stuck
Replies
4
Views
1K
dayfox
dayfox
wps-hbt2

Latest posts

Back
Top