Commerical Methods Versus Homebrew Methods

[Titan88]

So, I live in Northern Virginia and recently found out that Cabernet Sauvignon (my favorite) and Riesling (my wife's favorite) vines grow very well in this region. I found a vine supplier but was not sure how many I needed. Long story short, I found out that commercial wineries typically use about 20 pounds of grapes per gallon of wine. I also found out that some wineries are restricted, if not altogether forbidden, on the amount of water that can be used when making wine. They also rely on the sugar in the grapes rather than adding it (except for bad years).

This got me to thinking about non-grape recipes and how the rule of thumb is roughly three pounds of fruit per gallon. Why is there such a disparity between the amount of fruit required per gallon between grapes and other fruit?

 

[Yooper]

Wine grapes are the only "perfect" fruit for wine in that you don't add sugar or water to make the wine. With other fruits, there may be tons of acid, not enough sugar, not enough tannin (or too much), and so on. So generally water is added to dilute the excess acidity (especially something like rhubarb!) and the added sugar is to make up for the low sugar content in the fruits.
I use 6 pounds of crabapples per gallon of wine, but only 2.5 pounds of chokecherries, due to the make up of the fruit. It really depends on the fruit itself, and the type of acid it contains and how much sugar it has naturally.

So, I live in Northern Virginia and recently found out that Cabernet Sauvignon (my favorite) and Riesling (my wife's favorite) vines grow very well in this region. I found a vine supplier but was not sure how many I needed. Long story short, I found out that commercial wineries typically use about 20 pounds of grapes per gallon of wine. I also found out that some wineries are restricted, if not altogether forbidden, on the amount of water that can be used when making wine. They also rely on the sugar in the grapes rather than adding it (except for bad years).

This got me to thinking about non-grape recipes and how the rule of thumb is roughly three pounds of fruit per gallon. Why is there such a disparity between the amount of fruit required per gallon between grapes and other fruit?

 

[bernardsmith]

But I would argue that the home wine maker should use the most fruit they can given the considerations that Yooper cites. Simply using a few pounds of fruit and drowning the juice expressed in water results in a thin flavorless wine but if that is what the home wine maker is looking for then so be it.

 

[Titan88]

Wine grapes are the only "perfect" fruit for wine in that you don't add sugar or water to make the wine. With other fruits, there may be tons of acid, not enough sugar, not enough tannin (or too much), and so on. So generally water is added to dilute the excess acidity (especially something like rhubarb!) and the added sugar is to make up for the low sugar content in the fruits.
I use 6 pounds of crabapples per gallon of wine, but only 2.5 pounds of chokecherries, due to the make up of the fruit. It really depends on the fruit itself, and the type of acid it contains and how much sugar it has naturally.

So, is the best way forward to choose fruit with the best juice yield or sugar content?

 

[Yooper]

So, is the best way forward to choose fruit with the best juice yield or sugar content?

Maybe. Or maybe make a great wine out of chokecherries, but use some water and sugar to balance the astringency.

Something like peaches may make a great wine without diluting, but many fruits I use and love are too acidic to use in a great quantity. Luckily, they are also flavor- packed so you don't "water down" the wine in the end, simply dilute the intense acid and fruit flavor.

 

[Chef-Ryan]

depending on the acid in the fruit.. you can de-acidify a wine/juice (tartaric and malic are the ones i have done before) without adding lots of water... maybe just enough to dissolve the agent.. and i"m very sorry but my mind works in metric. so, i don't know the gallons and lbs conversion off the top of my head but for commercial grape wineries average yield is 65% juice from a pressing tho closer to 80% moisture in grapes but you will never get it all out (so in the crazy metric way.. for 100kg of grapes you will roughly get 65L of juice ) but this is just a rough number

 

[madscientist451]

This got me to thinking about non-grape recipes and how the rule of thumb is roughly three pounds of fruit per gallon. Why is there such a disparity between the amount of fruit required per gallon between grapes and other fruit?

The quick answer is that fruit other than grapes has less juice compared to the amount of pulp. You're not going to get a gallon of juice from 20 lbs of strawberries or raspberries. Also, trying to separate the fruit pulp and the juice is a total PITA. So some fruit is better suited to use as a flavoring agent for the wine. Ok, full disclosure: I've never pressed 20lbs of strawberries, so the above is total conjecture on my part. But it sounds logical. The only 100% no water or sugar fruit wine I made was with cherries, and it was way too much work for what I got out of it.
Any more, I use grapes and grape juice for wine, and add raspberries,strawberries and other soft fruit to cider and beer.

 

[gregbathurst]

I don't know where you got the 20lb per gallon figure but wineries usually get about 70% efficiency so from 20lb (9kg) you would expect about 6.5 L of wine which is more than 1.5 gallons of wine. For a gallon of wine you would only need about 14lb of grapes.
Wine is just fermented grape juice, nothing else.
If you are thinking of planting a vineyard i recommend 100 vines planted in rows, 3 feet between vines and 6 or 8 feet between rows. If it goes well you could expect 150 - 200 bottles of wine each year.

 

[Titan88]

I don't know where you got the 20lb per gallon figure but wineries usually get about 70% efficiency so from 20lb (9kg) you would expect about 6.5 L of wine which is more than 1.5 gallons of wine. For a gallon of wine you would only need about 14lb of grapes.
Wine is just fermented grape juice, nothing else.
If you are thinking of planting a vineyard i recommend 100 vines planted in rows, 3 feet between vines and 6 or 8 feet between rows. If it goes well you could expect 150 - 200 bottles of wine each year.

There were a few different t online wine magazines that were throwing around numbers. 14 sounds way more accurate. At most, I would probably only put about 10 vines or so in my yard. I am interested in starting out with smaller quantities to get vine maintenance and winemaking techniques down. Thanks for the gouge!

 

[Chef-Ryan]

Be warned.. to get a vine producing it will be about 3 years to get good grapes (first and second growing seasons i would remove any grapes it tries to produce to give the vine a chance to work on its root structure and the green growth for future trunk development)

 

[jgmillr1]

For reference, I grow 10 acres of grapes for my commercial winery. I typically get about 180 gallons per ton for skin-fermented grapes (11.1 lbs / gallon) and 150 gallons per ton for non skin-fermented grapes (13.3 lbs/gallon).

Of course, many factors go into this so your mileage will vary. Smaller grapes yield less juice per pound than larger grapes due to the higher portion of skins and seeds. The quality of your grape press *greatly* affects your yield. I use a bladder press that is very efficient. A small ratchet style press is much less efficient, especially for non skin fermented grapes such as Riesling.

The TTB regulates additives and amelioration. Some states restrict the use of sugar as well. As Yooper stated, grapes are the perfect fruit for wine making with the right balance of sugar and acid that requires minimal tinkering if any.

As far as growing grapes though, there is plenty of info out there for you to reference. Rule of thumb is that you'll get about a gallon of wine per mature vine, plus or minus 50%. Depends on varietal, vigor, disease management, training and pruning strategy. From a practical standpoint be sure to plant them spaced far enough apart so you can get your equipment in there. This means 9ft between rows and like 6ft between vines depending on vigor/varietal. Use quality treated wood posts and high tensile wire. Good luck!

 

[Titan88]

For reference, I grow 10 acres of grapes for my commercial winery. I typically get about 180 gallons per ton for skin-fermented grapes (11.1 lbs / gallon) and 150 gallons per ton for non skin-fermented grapes (13.3 lbs/gallon).

Of course, many factors go into this so your mileage will vary. Smaller grapes yield less juice per pound than larger grapes due to the higher portion of skins and seeds. The quality of your grape press *greatly* affects your yield. I use a bladder press that is very efficient. A small ratchet style press is much less efficient, especially for non skin fermented grapes such as Riesling.

The TTB regulates additives and amelioration. Some states restrict the use of sugar as well. As Yooper stated, grapes are the perfect fruit for wine making with the right balance of sugar and acid that requires minimal tinkering if any.

As far as growing grapes though, there is plenty of info out there for you to reference. Rule of thumb is that you'll get about a gallon of wine per mature vine, plus or minus 50%. Depends on varietal, vigor, disease management, training and pruning strategy. From a practical standpoint be sure to plant them spaced far enough apart so you can get your equipment in there. This means 9ft between rows and like 6ft between vines depending on vigor/varietal. Use quality treated wood posts and high tensile wire. Good luck!

Thanks for all the information. For some reason, I tend to trust advice I get on here more than on some online magazines. Maybe that's because people here aren't just reading it somewhere and citing it. Many people on here own/run a brewery or winery.

Since grapes take some time to produce, I'll just keep pumping out fruit wine for now. Got a dark cherry wine in secondary and just put five gallons of peach wine in primary today. Cheers!

 

[Chef-Ryan]

On average we use 3-4ft between vines and 7-8ft between rows.. and agree on the wire and posts but i also recommend setting up higher up catch wires as drop wires (you can lower the wires before the vine reaches that point so that when you are ready to tuck the vine, you lift the wire and lower the next one but this is a whole other topic on plant work and vineyard setup etc.)

How many tonnes per acre are you cropping at? (or clusters per vine etc etc etc)