Clove off flavor?

[bigskygreg]

So, I brewed a Surly bender PM clone with WLP007. Primary for 3 weeks, then bottled.

Initially, it had a bit yeasty aroma, but then was great after about 4 weeks in bottle.

Then at around 7-8 weeks, I now have a quite strong clove taste. Definitely not intended. The bottles are not over carbed, but do produce a larger head than desired. I figure it most have had something to do with sanitation when bottling? However, I bottled 2 batches that day with same procedure and equipment, but the other batch is fine (caribou slobber kit). I practice good sanitation with star san and haven't had this flavor before or since.

Any ideas for cause?

Thanks and cheers!

 

[Hello]

What was the temp you fermented at?

 

[bigskygreg]

What was the temp you fermented at?

Steady 68 (ferment temp, not ambient)

 

[Hello]

That is odd. Seems like a steady 68 and that yeast is perfect for that type of beer. Now since you did a PM, I think I'm out of basic ideas (temps and wrong yeast to the beer type). I'm sure people will want to know your mash process and all that jazz. Usually the clove taste has something to do with temps, but if you were at a steady 68, I too would be confused (I am confused).

 

[Whattawort]

What was the OG? WLP007 is a pretty stout yeast and if you started with a lower OG and that sucker took off, it may have finished quickly and produced a drier beer than desired which could possibly lead to that off-flavor. Just a thought.

 

[bigskygreg]

OG was 1.057
FG was 1.016
I did do a rather large starter (1.8l stir plate)

 

[Whattawort]

That seems to be on the money. Maybe a touch high on the FG, but I don't see an obvious reason for the clove flavor. My best guess would be the flavor is coming from the combination of Special B, Belgian aromatic, and chocolate malt. Special B by itself has a raisn-esq flavor and the chocolate can lend to a burned coffee flavor. I'm not familiar enough with the aromatic malt to say exactly how that would lend itself to the other adjuncts. What was you mash temp and did you keep it steady the entire time?

 

[bigskygreg]

I mashed in a bit high at 157, but got it dropped to 154 within 5 minutes and held there for 1 hr.

I'm hoping it's a recipe issue and not a sanitation issue as I feel like I got sanitation down and don't want to have to make big changes in that department.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[GuldTuborg]

What temp did you pitch at? Has there been an increase in carbonation after the first 4 weeks?

 

[Whattawort]

Your mash was fine at 154. I don't think the 5min at 157 did anything negative to your conversion. I was reading some of the reviews and there were several comments about a sweet smokiness to the finished product. Is it possible you're tasting something more along those lines or is it a distinct clove taste? I've never met an infection or bug that gave off a clove flavor, so I doubt that's it. I'm gonna have to go with the grain bill on this one. Did you happen to scortch the syrup and/or extract in the boil?

 

[bigskygreg]

What temp did you pitch at? Has there been an increase in carbonation after the first 4 weeks?

Yes, carbonation has increased. Not gusher status, but more foamy than desired.

 

[bigskygreg]

Your mash was fine at 154. I don't think the 5min at 157 did anything negative to your conversion. I was reading some of the reviews and there were several comments about a sweet smokiness to the finished product. Is it possible you're tasting something more along those lines or is it a distinct clove taste? I've never met an infection or bug that gave off a clove flavor, so I doubt that's it. I'm gonna have to go with the grain bill on this one. Did you happen to scortch the syrup and/or extract in the boil?

I don't think there was any scorching. It's definitely a clove taste and not subtle.

 

[bigskygreg]

Yes, carbonation has increased. Not gusher status, but more foamy than desired.

Pitched at 70, then fermented at 68

 

[GuldTuborg]

Assuming it was done with the usual stuff at 4 weeks (and it should have been), any noticeable increases might mean some kind of non-sacc critters in there. Like the above poster, I am not aware of typical souring organisms that give clove tastes, but I wouldn't rule this out. Especially if you didn't notice it before the 4 week period, it's a possibility.

Excess foam at pouring doesn't always mean extra carbonation, but it can. How does the beer taste if poured carefully? More carbonic "bite?"

 

[bigskygreg]

Assuming it was done with the usual stuff at 4 weeks (and it should have been), any noticeable increases might mean some kind of non-sacc critters in there. Like the above poster, I am not aware of typical souring organisms that give clove tastes, but I wouldn't rule this out. Especially if you didn't notice it before the 4 week period, it's a possibility. Excess foam at pouring doesn't always mean extra carbonation, but it can. How does the beer taste if poured carefully? More carbonic "bite?"

Doesn't seem excessively carbed. Would it make sense to use a hydrometer after allowing carbonation to gas off? I've never done that after bottling, but I assume I could look to see if gravity has dropped significantly?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Doesn't seem excessively carbed. Would it make sense to use a hydrometer after allowing carbonation to gas off? I've never done that after bottling, but I assume I could look to see if gravity has dropped significantly?

You absolutely can. A lower than FG result wouldn't mean infection necessarily, as the racking process can occasionally restart fermentation by the yeast, but it's a metric to start with. Then you can test in another few weeks or whatever and see if there is a change.

 

[bigskygreg]

I cracked open a bottle a little bit ago. It's definitely moving in the direction of gusher status. I took a gravity reading and it is at 1.011.

I guess I'm thinking infection. I am none too pleased. I guess I'm glad I drank over half of this batch before it turned. Now I'm thinking I need to dump what's left. Will it be okay to reuse the bottles? I am thinking a good oxyclean soak, then rinse and sanitize per usual?

I'm still baffled by this one, but it's definitely moving in the wrong direction.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I cracked open a bottle a little bit ago. It's definitely moving in the direction of gusher status. I took a gravity reading and it is at 1.011.

I guess I'm thinking infection. I am none too pleased. I guess I'm glad I drank over half of this batch before it turned. Now I'm thinking I need to dump what's left. Will it be okay to reuse the bottles? I am thinking a good oxyclean soak, then rinse and sanitize per usual?

I'm still baffled by this one, but it's definitely moving in the wrong direction.

I can't speak to an infection (only one I've gotten was intentional for a sour).

As for reusing the bottles, absolutely can use them again. A good soak in PBW or Oxyclean will get them cleaned out. You can, also, run them through the dishwasher without detergent and use the high heat drying cycle to help sterilize them. If your dishwasher has a sterilizer setting even better. I've even used a chemical sterilizer that you can get from restaurant supply stores (just make sure that you rinse them really well afterwards.

 

[GuldTuborg]

You don't know at what point something ugly got in it and took hold, and anything it touched from that point on could have more critters on it. It's probably safest to clean everything really well. Anything glass should be fine with a good cleaning, anything plastic needs to be held to a higher standard. Consider replacing anything plastic, especially if it's old.

Of course, if you might have missed a step sanitizing earlier, and that's the cause of it, then plastic pieces should also be fine after cleaning. I guess it's all part of how much risk you're willing to take.

 

[Yooper]

"Clove" often means an infection when it appears later on.

I've had that happen to me. It's a phenol, generally caused by wild yeast contamination. It can be from an infected racking cane or other items used in bottling/packaging the batch.

 

[dysphoria]

I would have to agree with the above - probably a wild yeast or bug.
I have had this occur to me several times when attempting to use harvested yeast from commercial bottle conditioned beers.
It was a very distinct clovey flavor - and only got worse as bottle conditioning progressed(along with being over carbonated). I had to break everything down and thoroughly sanitize to get rid of it, as I had a couple batches afterwards present with similar symptoms. After giving all my equipment a good long soak in sanitizer, every batch has been clove free.

 

[bigskygreg]

Thanks everyone for "walking me through" this one. It's a bummer, but I guess a learning experience.

Greg

 

[bigskygreg]

Good news, I only 4 , 16 oz bottles left. Much better than having to dump the case I thought I had left. Guess I lost count of how many I drank 😃

 

[GuldTuborg]

Guess I lost count of how many I drank 😃

It's easy to do, isn't it?