Closed transfers...during primary fermentation?

[brewpharm Hill]

Hi all,

Trying to nail down my new england IPAs and improve hop flavor and aroma by spunding early on to capture more hop aroma and also start some natural carbonation. I want to do a closed C02 transfer right around day 3 or 4 (high krausen) from a fermonster into a C02 purged keg containing my drop hop...going for that bio transformation and all. Keep in mind my diptube on this corny is shortened and has a filter over it (see http://scottjanish.com/fermenting-dry-hopping-pressure/).

My question is ... has anyone had experience with this this early on in fermentation? Most of the yeast will be in suspension with some trub already settled out. The goal is to transfer the actively fermentation wort on top of the dry hops in the keg. I'm assuming most of the flavors in the beer will be developed by then (spunding tends to suppress esters etc). I wouldn't be as weary if I was doing the transfer at day 7 post primary fermentation.

 

[eastoak]

If you move the beer off of the yeast before full attenuation you may be back here asking about how to restart a stuck fermentation.

 

[Iseneye]

I have transferred at 1.024 before with 005 and didn't get stuck fermentation. That was at day 3.

I don't see why you would get stuck fermentation. Isn't all the active yeast in suspension? The yeast left behind will be the ones that are done and flocculated out. That's my guess anyway.

 

[hezagenius]

I've done this several times and I've never had any issues with a stuck fermentation. Just watch out for clogging up your line. If you have a filter over your diptube and you are transferring into the keg through the liquid post, you will be trapping a lot of stuff inside the filter during your transfer.

Are you planning to transfer to a serving keg after dry hopping?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I've done this several times and I've never had any issues with a stuck fermentation. Just watch out for clogging up your line. If you have a filter over your diptube and you are transferring into the keg through the liquid post, you will be trapping a lot of stuff inside the filter during your transfer.

Are you planning to transfer to a serving keg after dry hopping?

Yes. I'll be using a corny for the dry hop and spunding and then transferring to a serving keg.

 

[specharka]

This is similar to what I do except I’ve switched to dry hopping at the tail end of fermentation and adding krausen to make up the volumetric difference and naturally carbonate the beer. Unfortunately there’s always some losses due to the addition of dry hops and dead space in the keg.

As far as all that stuck fermentation and clogged dip tube stuff, it’s a bunch of hot air. Leave 0.5-1.0” between the bottom of your dip tube and the keg and you’ll be fine. The yeast still in suspension will have no problem attenuating. I still get a few hop particles that make it through the screen, but if you’re transferring to a serving keg thereafter, they’ll drop out pretty quickly. Cold crashing helps tremendously.

You might want to look into the Clear Beer Draught System, which is even more robust than the hop screen that I use (and reportedly eliminates the need for transferring to a serving keg).

 

[hezagenius]

I'll be using a corny for the dry hop and spunding and then transferring to a serving keg.

That's what I've done. Works well.

Are you finding that you are lacking aroma with your current process?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

That's what I've done. Works well.

Are you finding that you are lacking aroma with your current process?

Some beers are better than others... overall just trying to improve hop saturation and ester profile. I want to avoid blow off of these lovely things.

 

[hezagenius]

I'm with you there. My issue is that the beer smells totally insane during primary fermentation and dry hopping but after I do a closed pressure transfer to a keg, the aroma just fades away. I ferment in a keg and the only time that beer touches oxygen after pitching is when I add dry hops. I always add them during fermentation and purge the heck out of it so I have to think oxidation is pretty low on the list of causes. And the beer stays the same color for months after kegging. Sometimes I spund immediately after adding dry hops, sometimes a day or two after just to give it time to push out any remaining oxygen that got in when I added the dry hops.

I'm slowly trying to rule out possible causes.

Am I transferring to a serving keg too early? Should I let the yeast clean the beer up a bit more? Seems somewhat counterintuitive if you are trying to get that intense tropical flavor and aroma from the hops.

Is there a sanitary issue somewhere? Seems unlikely. The only place it could really be is on the valves on my kettle since I don't take those apart each time. Everything else gets cleaned and sanitized quite well.

Is it the yeast? I use 1318 or 007 which is in line with common practices. Am I just sensitive to some weird flavors in the hops? I'm going to try an atypical yeast for NEIPAs next time to see if that makes a difference.

Is my mash pH way off? I try to keep it around 5.2 to 5.3 so I don't think that's it.

I've tried high Cl & low SO4, high SO4 & low Cl, high SO4 & high Cl. Those don't seem to matter much in my opinion. I'm sure they do actually matter but it seems like when you overload a beer with hops, some of the subtle tweaks you make just get lost.

Something I'm going to try soon is waiting until fermentation is done before dry hopping. If you wait, then you probably have less chance of blowing off any aroma. I don't know how much biotransformation will actually happen in that scenario. Maybe if you do a massive whirlpool, there will be enough hops left in the beer to still get some biotransformation. Hard to say until I try it.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I'm with you there. My issue is that the beer smells totally insane during primary fermentation and dry hopping but after I do a closed pressure transfer to a keg, the aroma just fades away. I ferment in a keg and the only time that beer touches oxygen after pitching is when I add dry hops. I always add them during fermentation and purge the heck out of it so I have to think oxidation is pretty low on the list of causes. And the beer stays the same color for months after kegging. Sometimes I spund immediately after adding dry hops, sometimes a day or two after just to give it time to push out any remaining oxygen that got in when I added the dry hops.

I'm slowly trying to rule out possible causes.

Im shocked you're still losing aroma. Is there a leak somewhere? I feel like if pressure is maintained after spunding you should be okay? Idk though this is my first time doing it. I'll probably do it tonight or tomorrow depending on where fermentation is.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Does any know how carbonation this typically yields? Assuming there is still a some gravity point left in the fermenting beer when its spunded. I'm assuming some force carbonation or priming the keg with sugar will be required to finish it off...

 

[Sbe2]

This should give you an idea. I transfer on day 4 to serving keg, condition at room temp for a week, force carb in keezer for 2 and then serve.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am getting into the early transfer game as well but what I am reading and hearing is to wait until you have about 1 plato left with fermentation. This leaves more yeast behind, lets fermentation get further along while still having enough left for carbonation.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

UPDATE:

I transferred from the dry hop keg to the serving keg last night and found that I lost a lot in the keg (I clipped my dip tube 2" so that doesn't help, but also had a lot of foaming).

Here is what I did...

- Transferred from primary fermenter to dry hop keg with shortened dip tube and filter and dry hops on day 3 and set to 10psi (krausen was almost gone)
- Raised to 70* F on day 8 and set my spunding valve to 30 psi (held for 2 days)
- Cold crashed on day 10 to 40*F and kept for 2 days (Naturally down to ~15-20 psi)
- Before I transferred to the serving keg I released the pressure in the keg to 10psi with the spunding valve (I think this caused some foaming from loss of head space pressure)
-Transferred from dry hop keg at 10psi to serving keg which was spunded at 8-9psi

When transferring I had normal flow for a while and than started getting bubbles so I tilted the keg to try to get the beer to the shorter dip tube (I'm thinking between the foaming, short diptube, trube and hop matter there was some blockage).

I definitely lost about a gallon or more of beer to foam (thought it was less but when I opened the dry hop keg the foam was half way up and after settling is when I saw i lost quite a bit).

I probably wont release the pressure to 10psi next time...the beer was carbonated quite well to my surprise and the foam screwed me.

This was my first counter pressure transfer...any tips for next time?

 

[Veets]

When you were at 70F and 30psi then chilled to 40F resulted in 15-20psi, simply releasing the pressure in the headspace down to 10psi did not get the "keg" down to 10psi, just the headspace. There was more (i.e., excess) CO2 dissolved in the liquid. If you let it sit like that for a while, you'd see that the pressure in the headspace would rise again, but not all the way back to where it was at 15-20psi. I think you're probably right about foaming, and pretty close to the mark on why it happened.
I'd suggest next time putting the pressure in the empty serving keg up to 15-20psi, or whatever the cold-crashed keg is at, then transferring. (You said serving keg, but I think you meant the dry hop keg.)

Did you do a closed-loop transfer?

Two other things to consider:

(1) skip the dry hop keg and dry hop in the serving keg. If you cut or bend your dip tube and/or put a screen on it, you'll probably do just fine and avoid the potential for more O2 introduction by avoiding a second transfer
(2) Buy or making floating dip tubes. You'll draw clear beer off the top of each keg, and avoid picking up hop debris and trub.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

When you were at 70F and 30psi then chilled to 40F resulted in 15-20psi, simply releasing the pressure in the headspace down to 10psi did not get the "keg" down to 10psi, just the headspace. There was more (i.e., excess) CO2 dissolved in the liquid. If you let it sit like that for a while, you'd see that the pressure in the headspace would rise again, but not all the way back to where it was at 15-20psi. I think you're probably right about foaming, and pretty close to the mark on why it happened.
I'd suggest next time putting the pressure in the empty serving keg up to 15-20psi, or whatever the cold-crashed keg is at, then transferring. (You said serving keg, but I think you meant the dry hop keg.)

Did you do a closed-loop transfer?

Two other things to consider:

(1) skip the dry hop keg and dry hop in the serving keg. If you cut or bend your dip tube and/or put a screen on it, you'll probably do just fine and avoid the potential for more O2 introduction by avoiding a second transfer
(2) Buy or making floating dip tubes. You'll draw clear beer off the top of each keg, and avoid picking up hop debris and trub.

I had my serving keg pressurized with a spunding valve and it was connected to the dry hop keg via a jumper. The dry keg was pressurized with my C02 tank. So I guess it wasn't a closed loop since the air from the serving keg was being expelled via the spunding valve during the transfer to it.

 

[Veets]

I had my serving keg pressurized with a spunding valve and it was connected to the dry hop keg via a jumper. The dry keg was pressurized with my C02 tank. So I guess it wasn't a closed loop since the air from the serving keg was being expelled via the spunding valve during the transfer to it.

Right.
Here's information on the closed loop method

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/600563/

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Right.
Here's information on the closed loop method

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/600563/

Ahhhhh thank you. This is great. I've seen this on YouTube ... I should have just done it, but was being stubborn and did my own method. Live and ya learn....

 

[Sbe2]

Are you worried about stalling out? Or are you kegging a pt or two above expected FG