I know everyone here brews what they enjoy drinking,and many brewers find it a challenge to create their own recipes,BUT.....maybe you can give me some insight into why you would want to clone a brew that you can purchase outright.Is it the challenge? I for one like to "Go where no brewer has gone before",and create off the wall brews that may or may not suit my likes,but all in all,using my UberCreative ideas,I've yet to have a "Stinker". I just pic out a basic un-hopped extract,select some random hops,and brew away. It'll probably catch up with me someday,and give me some un-drinkable swill,but until then,I'll keep on doing what seems to work for me. Keep Brewing my friends.....
Clone Brews.
- Thread starter Randolf
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Sometimes its a challenge for me but I seldom try to make a clone but come close by grabbing more or less of what I like in the beer. I do a Stone IPA that I like better. It's not a clone but has some of the same ingredients but I hop differently and adjusted some things to my liking.
I do like making my own recipes though.
I do like making my own recipes though.
Why "clone" a beer? Well, for a few reasons:
-to see if I can;
-to see if I can make a $12 sixpack for $12 for five gallons;
-to see if mine is better since it's fresh;
- to take beers I like (but don't love) and make them beers I love by tweaking them
That's pretty much it. I'm not a "challenge" type brewer. I don't brew much that is off-the-wall. But I love brewing beers that are better than the commercial versions! I love having friends and neighbors tell me that they love my beer better than Landshark/Guiness/New Glarus/Bell's/Sierra Nevada's.
I had a friend who made off-the-wall stuff like "wee heavy with clover honey and molasses". She threw in whatever her fancy was that day. I loved her spirit. Her beers? Nah, they sucked.
I think everybody should make what they love and then they succeed. To her, her beers were awesome. To me, they were motor oil. She was happy, and that's all that mattered.
Yooper said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Any way, I make clones of beers that I like but are seasonal, my favorite clone is a Tumbler inspired brown ale... But I just made a DFH 60 min. Just to see how close I can get....
HootHootHoot
Well-Known Member
I get why some people do, but I personally feel like when I brew I try to create something different. Why clone a blue moon when I can just go to the store? People one over to try my homebrew, they are disappointed if its a clone.
You're right though, to each their own. I did clones at first, got bored, so started creating my own reipes
I've never tried to clone anything like Blue Moon, but I can't imagine it's all that easy. That would be a hard one. It's probably much cheaper to buy than to make a sub-par clone anyway, so I wouldn't attempt it.
My friends aren't really beer snobs, but they always ask what style it is, and what commercial example would be comparable. They do tend to like my beers better, but I always say something like, "Well, this is an oatmeal stout and while there aren't many good commercial examples it's similar to XXXX" so they have something to compare it to.
In some cases, like German pilsner or Munich dunkel, they may have never heard of the commercial equivalent so I try to explain a bit about the style. With all American lagers, cream ales, stouts, etc, they all know what to expect and can give pretty good feedback.
Love your spirit - but brewing off the wall is the safe play. There is no challenge, and you will always be satisfied because there is nothing to measure it to.
Brewing a clone, especially blind by using my vision and palate, is a true brewing challenge. It tests my experience as a brewer to match technique and style to a standard. My next brew will be a clone of Mackeson Triple Stout. No recipe, just my palate and the style guidelines from Jamil Zainasheff.
Brewing a clone, especially blind by using my vision and palate, is a true brewing challenge. It tests my experience as a brewer to match technique and style to a standard. My next brew will be a clone of Mackeson Triple Stout. No recipe, just my palate and the style guidelines from Jamil Zainasheff.
swallace
Active Member
Some beers you can only find in different parts of the world, so it's nice to have them at the ready.
You can taste test your beer clone and the model side by side. You can taste subtle details very clearly that are otherwise hard to identify; identifying the differences reveals information about your process.
blaster_54738
Well-Known Member
Here's why I chose to brew clones. Blue Moon and Shock Top are actually good examples for me. I brew them...well because I like them and I like brewing. It's that simple. Yeah I know I could go buy a 12 pack of it but I don't get the enjoyment of actually making it. And it still comes out being cheaper making it yourself than buying it.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
I've only cloned a handful of beers. I cloned because I like the beer enough to want several gallons around the house without paying as much for it. Plus, it's a great opportunity to test your system against a commercial system. If you have a good clone recipe then your beer should be extremely close to the "real thing". If it's off, you have a deficiency in your system and discovering it will make each of your future beers better.
Mostly I like to use clone recipes as a base line for building new recipes. I know what the beer tastes like and what flavors are there so I can extract them from the recipe and adjust as I see fit. Much easier than trying to reinvent the wheel.
Mostly I like to use clone recipes as a base line for building new recipes. I know what the beer tastes like and what flavors are there so I can extract them from the recipe and adjust as I see fit. Much easier than trying to reinvent the wheel.
TimpanogosSlim
Well-Known Member
In general, in principle, I'm against cloning for the same reason I'm against "low fat" recipes that say you can just replace sour cream with nonfat yogurt.
If I want something, something that is only similar to what i want, is only going to annoy me.
If I want a burger, and cannot have a burger, I do not settle for a veggie burger. I don't have a sandwich at all, and probably avoid beef too.
If i want a green curry and only have yellow curry, I'll make a ham sandwich instead, because close-but-no-cigar will only serve to disappoint.
All that being said, I appreciate the existence of clone recipes as a jumping off point for making something in the same style as a particular beer i like.
I brewed a rogue hazelnut brown nectar clone because that's a beer I like, but i don't expect my clone to be anything other than a brown ale in a similar style. If i get a hankering for the real thing, I'll have to go to the ABC and slap down my $7 for a bomber.
I'm looking at hoegaarden clone recipes because I'd like to have a house belgian wit, and hoegaarden is an excellent example of the style. And Blue Moon is not.
Brewing the clone is step 1. Drinking the clone and deciding what to change is step 2.
If I want something, something that is only similar to what i want, is only going to annoy me.
If I want a burger, and cannot have a burger, I do not settle for a veggie burger. I don't have a sandwich at all, and probably avoid beef too.
If i want a green curry and only have yellow curry, I'll make a ham sandwich instead, because close-but-no-cigar will only serve to disappoint.
All that being said, I appreciate the existence of clone recipes as a jumping off point for making something in the same style as a particular beer i like.
I brewed a rogue hazelnut brown nectar clone because that's a beer I like, but i don't expect my clone to be anything other than a brown ale in a similar style. If i get a hankering for the real thing, I'll have to go to the ABC and slap down my $7 for a bomber.
I'm looking at hoegaarden clone recipes because I'd like to have a house belgian wit, and hoegaarden is an excellent example of the style. And Blue Moon is not.
Brewing the clone is step 1. Drinking the clone and deciding what to change is step 2.
divrguy
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iambeer said:
love this technique. I always learn how to make my process better here.
ReverseApacheMaster said:
Perfect, I love the grain bill but hate the hop schedule. Minutes later into beersmith and months later out the bottle, it's much better to me because it's suits my taste.
Challenge is a great one as well.... Dang there are so many reasons!! I also love making $130 worth of great beer for $30 lol
The word "clone" is often a misnomer when homebrewer's attempt to recreate commercial beers. At best, you're probably getting more of a fraternal twin. Yet we use the word loosely and do not take into account that the homebrewing system vs. the large scale commercial system. These systems will yield different results dependant on efficiencies, overall size, barometric pressure, yeast handling, and other unique brewing processes. There are so many differences that even a duplicate recipe will not yield the same results.
I "attempt" clone recipes in order to become a better brewer. Ten breweries may brew the same beer style in very different ways (some better than others) but you can never learn too much by studying each brewery's individual processes. Maybe one brewery harnesses better hop aroma on average, whereas another has a really good malt backbone for most of their beers.
Also, with researching clones, I've come to the point where I'm very confident in designing my own recipes that suit my tastes. For example, as much as I like fresh Stone IPA, I always thought it was a little too toasty-sweet for me. I remedied that minor feature in my homebrew recreation based on their clone recipe without affecting the body, aroma, or head of the original beer. I have my Ninkasi Tricerahops "twin" in the carboy right now. I love that beer. So I'm going to taste my version of it when it's done and see if I got it right. Then next time, I can make advancements on what I know to be a fairly accurate recipe of the original beer on a homebrewing scale.
Experimentation makes you a better brewer and if you don't learn how other people brew, then you will continue to brew the only way you know how... with limited experience, not pushing the envelope, or trying different things.
I "attempt" clone recipes in order to become a better brewer. Ten breweries may brew the same beer style in very different ways (some better than others) but you can never learn too much by studying each brewery's individual processes. Maybe one brewery harnesses better hop aroma on average, whereas another has a really good malt backbone for most of their beers.
Also, with researching clones, I've come to the point where I'm very confident in designing my own recipes that suit my tastes. For example, as much as I like fresh Stone IPA, I always thought it was a little too toasty-sweet for me. I remedied that minor feature in my homebrew recreation based on their clone recipe without affecting the body, aroma, or head of the original beer. I have my Ninkasi Tricerahops "twin" in the carboy right now. I love that beer. So I'm going to taste my version of it when it's done and see if I got it right. Then next time, I can make advancements on what I know to be a fairly accurate recipe of the original beer on a homebrewing scale.
Experimentation makes you a better brewer and if you don't learn how other people brew, then you will continue to brew the only way you know how... with limited experience, not pushing the envelope, or trying different things.
I think they definitely have a place for practice purposes, especially for new brewers. That way there is at least an expectation of how a beer should taste and some clear instructions on how to make it taste that way.
Thanx for all the comments,am enjoying reading them,they way I do it is.....Only do 4 types. (1) American Style Ale..Lt.LME and American Hop varities,(2) GrainBelt Ales...wheat LME and German hops,(3) Amber Ale LME...with Variety of hops,(4) Dark LME...with English hops.That way I have no standards or recipes to follow. I'm usually the only one who comsumes my beers,so I only have myself to be upset with if one comes out bad.(not happened yet).Maybe I'm not a Brewer,but a "Concoctionist",that just happens to end up with beer as a final product...LOL
FutureJack
Well-Known Member
I have used clone recipes as a baseline, but have never attempted to clone a beer. I never did kits either. I just started off with a good brewer and friend as a mentor and started punching numbers into Beersmith. The closest I ever came trying to clone a beer was Vinny's recipe for Golden Strong in Brew Like a Monk - but even that recipe offers a few variables and doesn't specifically state which yeast strain to use.
I can certainly appreciate the scientific challenge of trying to replicate someone's beer , but I guess that doesn't particularly interest me - at least not enough to invest my own money and time into the process. I am much more interested in being able to replicate my own recipes than I am someone else's.
I can certainly appreciate the scientific challenge of trying to replicate someone's beer , but I guess that doesn't particularly interest me - at least not enough to invest my own money and time into the process. I am much more interested in being able to replicate my own recipes than I am someone else's.
TrubHead
Well-Known Member
+1 agreed. Forget the BJCP and go with what you like. Oh wait...read the BJCP uses commercial beers in training.
Having a target helps you hone your skills. If your beer is off a little, you can tweak some things and see how close you can get. hopefully it gets a little better every cycle. It also helps you break down a beer into it's basic components (base grains, adjuncts, hops, water, yeast) so you get a better understanding of what each contributes to the final product. That understanding will help you with your own recipes going forward.
I honestly couldn't tell you anything about hops when I started, but now I can sometimes identify them in a specific beer. Same goes for grains and yeast.
I honestly couldn't tell you anything about hops when I started, but now I can sometimes identify them in a specific beer. Same goes for grains and yeast.
Yooper said:
This is the best description of why I do it out of them all. I have a BUNCH of great recipes that started as clone recipes. But I will often attempt to "fix" (ie: tweak it to how I would prefer it to be) the recipe before even brewing it. For my Pliny tweaked recipe ("13" in my signature) I changed up the hop schedule, moved many of them forward in the brew, changed the finishing hop and went with a darker crystal and a handfull of honey malt, and I've had professionals tell me they prefer it to the original.
That's why I "clone" except, well, I guess I don't really clone, I just copy and tweak recipes to my liking. Making a recipe from scratch is awfully hard to do if you've not already committed "Designing great beers" to memory. Even using that book (or Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles) isn't really making a recipe from scratch, because you're using a recipe/formulation that somebody else came up with to get you started, then you're usually referring back to the book to make sure your tweaks are within style.
watersr
Thirsty Viking
Brewing clones is how I learned to formulate recipes. It helped greatly knowing what my finished product was supposed to taste like. Then I could tweak the recipe to make it my own and adjust it to my tastes and learn what the changes in my recipe did to the overall flavor. Having the starting point saves making a lot of dissapointing beers.
it's just like people who visit your house. They SMSSSESEEE(whisper between themselves),thinking that your house smells like your pet.My idea,don't like it here,Don't come back. Same for brews,don't likem?,you had your last one from me!
I care about what other people think especially if they agree with me.
I can tell you just by reading that and without tasting it, I would not prefer this version to the original. Thumbs up to moving much of the hop schedule later in the boil, thumbs down to using darker crystal along with a handful of honey malt. If any improvements were to be made on the original grist, it would be to use a lighter crystal, less of it, or none at all. I guess as long as it works for you then that's all that matters.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I clone to hone my skills. I find that by having a proven consistent product that hundreds if not thousands of people have reviewed in great detail to compare my beer to is a great asset. For instance, if I want to learn more about the fermentation temperatures of a strain of yeast and see how temps change the flavor profile, I can use a clone to compare it to.
I also clone anything I cannot get. I have only had about 10% of the beers I clone. Just can't find them anywhere, so clones are an easy way for me to get a feel for a beer.
I also clone anything I cannot get. I have only had about 10% of the beers I clone. Just can't find them anywhere, so clones are an easy way for me to get a feel for a beer.
LOL..well then NONE for you!
I've already beaten two pro brewers in an IPA competition with that recipe, but there's no accounting for taste.
Pliny FTR is very low on the SRM scale for style. You can upgrade to 30L Crystal without much change in flavor and bringing it a bit darker. I have no problem if you don't like my beer before you taste it though. Every beer I make has fans and those who are less then impressed. My apricot blonde is by far the most popular beer I've made, and I don't even like to drink it. ;-)
BTW, I changed the recipe AFTER talking to one of the brewers at Russian River about it, and I only added darker crystal, not more of it.
Edit: Forgot to mention, I use San Diego super yeast too, so I guess that's another change.
Double Edit: One of the bjcp certified judges in that competition gave this beer a 44!
That's the beauty of taking clone recipes of beers that you really enjoy, and tweaking them even more to suit your own tastes. You're guaranteed a good base to work off of!
I don't understand this comment though:
The real PtE uses Crystal 45, which is darker than 30.
I don't understand this comment though:
The real PtE uses Crystal 45, which is darker than 30.
Chefjp
Well-Known Member
could you share the recipe for your IPA?
It is a good way to start and learn...
Last year I bought the "special" Mag from "How to brew" that had nothing but clone recipes... I have found it a great asset.
I can look at two beers I like and see the recipes,,, I can compare ingredients.
Then I can build my own without the trouble of doing thousands of experiments.
I just did my first CLONE which was FAT-TIRE someone gave me bottles and I am going to try to fill them with a similar beer
But I did at the same time brew and English Mild,,, my own recipe.
I am very interested in Mash Schedule these were included
My MAG is getting torn up and I am considering buying another for the Library,,,,
Last year I bought the "special" Mag from "How to brew" that had nothing but clone recipes... I have found it a great asset.
I can look at two beers I like and see the recipes,,, I can compare ingredients.
Then I can build my own without the trouble of doing thousands of experiments.
I just did my first CLONE which was FAT-TIRE someone gave me bottles and I am going to try to fill them with a similar beer
But I did at the same time brew and English Mild,,, my own recipe.
I am very interested in Mash Schedule these were included
My MAG is getting torn up and I am considering buying another for the Library,,,,
I love clone recipes for that very same reason. Someone has a special request such as "Make it taste like 2 hearted, but a CDA" and you can just take the 2 hearted clone recipe and use it as a base for the CDA.
