Clearing the brew

[mccartney]

im a little worried that my brew isnt clearing up.

5 days ago i racked to secondary and set it in my garage where it is cold. a day later there was sediment an inch thick but the brew is still seems like its not clearing and has a dark brown color.

today i put a flashlight up to the carboy and saw whitish particles suspended in it. the garage is staying between 35 to 40 degrees so i thought it would have cleared up by now.

i dont know if this is because it is a high gravity brew, or because i shook up the primary partway through the fermenting to suspend the yeast again, or if i didnt do a starter for it, or whatever else it might be that i now know i shouldnt have done.

i made sure to cool the wort quickly after boiling, i used the whirlfloc tablet, and even the cold crash the last few days didnt seem to help, or maybe it just needs more time.

will this clear up? i thought it would have by now.
what can i do to help it?
what can i do to prevent it next time?

 

[Ogri]

Can't really give a definitive answer without knowing a lot more details about the brew but I will say that, if it's going to be bottle conditioned, after carbonation, when the bottles are then put into the fridge for a few days to a week, my beers usually end up crystal clear due to the sediment getting nicely compacted on the bottom of the bottle. I actually get a bit peeved because my witbiers/hefe-weissen end up a bit too clear, for my liking, and trying to rouse the yeast quite often takes some rather violent shaking.

It might be that you are using a yeast strain that doesn't flocculate very well.

 

[bacchusmj]

I usually secondary in the 65-70 range for ales. I try and keep a constant temp throughout fermentation. Im no expert but if you just took a high gravity beer out of primary and put it in the cold you might have jumped the gun and stalled a normal fermentation.

again, Im a relative noob but I dont cold-crash until a day or two before bottling, if ever.

 

[roger617]

I'd need to hear more about what type of beer this is and the type of yeast used. You mentioned a high gravity, and dark, but beyond that? I'm pretty new to home brewing myself, but one thing I've always heard is to make sure the temp is constant. I'd be nervous leaving it in the garage when the temp is likely to fluctuate greatly depending where you live.

 

[mccartney]

this was an IPA kit, i added extra sugars to to boost it up to 1.082. the yeast was san diego wlp090, supposed to be a high flocculate i think. the white flakes might not be yeast but possibly proteins, as ive read it resembles egg drop soup consistency,
it was in primary for 18 days and attenuated down to 1.015. the temp in the garage maybe fluctuates 5 degrees, not sure if its too much but i thought the point was that it stayed cold. i still plan to keep it in the secondary for a couple more weeks but then im going to keg it and force carbonate.
i also have filtering equipment that i might end up getting out to use for this brew.

 

[Ogri]

1.082 down to 1.015 is pretty good attenuation:rockin::rockin:

Just exactly how cold is the brew getting out in the garage?? I've got a strong blonde ale that had hideous, big soapy bubble, krausen that wouldn't drop for three weeks, and when it finally did the brew seemed really cloudy, but now after a week at 8C (46F) it's cleared really nicely. Also, I'd have thought the protein coagulate wouldn't get transferred when racking so shouldn't be a problem in your finished product.

Not familiar with kegging myself but doesn't beer tend to clear nicely when force carbed then chilled for a week or so?

 

[mccartney]

i was really happy about the attenuation especially since i didnt use a starter, i didnt think i needed to at first because its a super yeast, or at least it said so in the vile. but i learned that i still need one. live and learn!
temp in the garage is usually between 35 to 40 according to the sticky thermometer on the carboy. i keep it close to the inside to keep it warmer than it would be towards the front of the garage. i dont have a fridge to keep it in so it either stays at that temp or in the house where its normally 75 ish degrees.
i havent really heard about the kegging being a means to clear it when carbonating, but ive only keg carbonated 2 other batches and they were crystal clear.
im sure my issue is patience but i was thinking after 5 days it would start clearing up

actually it might fluctuate from 35 to 45 degrees now that i think about it

 

[freisste]

At this point, there isn't a whole lot you can do aside from giving it time.

I think your best bet is to cold crash it. Figure out when you want to bottle or keg. Work backward about three days. Put the carboy into some sort of tub and fill it to half the carboy height with ice water. You shouldn't need to add ice for those few days because it is cool enough in your garage. As long as you have it in ice water, you don't have to worry about it freezing, but it will certainly be cold. That will help a lot of solids fall out of solution. Rack (CAREFULLY! Make sure you don't stir up the stuff in the bottom) into a keg or bottling bucket.

 

[mccartney]

so its not cold enough just sitting on the ground? youd actually recommend putting it in an ice bath to get it colder? it gets close to freezing as it is in there especially at night anyways

i am thinking more and more that i will want to filter this brew

 

[freisste]

I've been wrong before, so take this with a grain of salt.

My understanding of cold crashing is that you want it as cold as possible. Like I said, if you put it in ice water, it will get very cold. (It WILL NOT freeze, though - no worries there). While it is cold, you can rack it away from the solids that fall out of solution.

 

[Ogri]

so its not cold enough just sitting on the ground? youd actually recommend putting it in an ice bath to get it colder? it gets close to freezing as it is in there especially at night anyways

i am thinking more and more that i will want to filter this brew

Actually, the thermal mass of the water will ensure that variations in temperature are less extreme, or at least will occur slower.

 

[Dirty]

If you want it to clear try polyclar. I use half tea soon on my dry hopped IPAs and it pulls everything down and clears nicely in two days in secondary with out striping any flavor our aroma

 

[mccartney]

Actually, the thermal mass of the water will ensure that variations in temperature are less extreme, or at least will occur slower.

sorry im not sure what this means

i think i did a bad job with racking to secondary because i had trouble with the siphon and there was and still is a yeast cake at the bottom of the carboy an inch thick after the first day in the secondary.

so is it possible all of the yeast has fallen out and the cloudiness and particles remaining are something else? i read somewhere proteins can also be suspended and be hard to clear out.

i will probably try keeping it in the cold garage for another week or so and see if there is improvement, if not i will try an ice water bath as you suggest.

regardless in my newbie opinion based on the inch of yeast cake from the primary, and the inch already in the secondary, i would assume the yeast is not the issue because it is evident so much has already settled so quickly. if this is proteins from malt, what could i have done to get it suspended in the brew, in other words, what can i do to prevent it next time?

does this polyclar that dirty mentioned work just for yeast or the proteins too?

 

[Ogri]

sorry im not sure what this means

An easy way to think of it is putting your fermenter into a swamp cooler/water bath you have the volume of fluid (water) in the water bath plus the volume of fluid (wort) in your fermenter. Due to the greater volume of fluid it will take longer for the whole volume to change temperature. Means that there will be less extreme swings, in terms of degrees and time, in the temp of your wort.

So, if the temp outside suddenly drops to below freezing it's going to take a good while longer before the wort reaches that temperature.

 

[mccartney]

so are you saying that keeping it in the garage where it is always cold anyways is enough to settle the suspended stuff, because the water in the beer is so much more dense than the air?

 

[Ogri]

so are you saying that keeping it in the garage where it is always cold anyways is enough to settle the suspended stuff,because the water in the beer is so much more dense than the air?

keeping the beer as cold as possible will make the yeast go dormant and drop out of solution. Other solids might follow suit. Whether it'll completely sort out your problem, or not, I don't know. But that is cold crashing.
I'm just talking about having your fermenter, which contains beer, sitting in another larger vessel that contains water. Referred to by some as a swamp cooler. All I'm trying to point out about this set-up is that it will lessen the extremes of temperature change, from the surrounding environment, on your beer.

 

[mccartney]

ok that makes sense

still i am wondering how this happened in the first place. what can cause this suspension, assuming all of the yeast has fallen out? or is it still yeast? remember that a lot of yeast has fallen out already.

 

[kombat]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned gelatin yet. I'd recommend hitting the brew with a dose of gelatin.

Take a cup of water and boil it to sanitize it. Wait for it to cool down to 150 F (don't forget to sanitize the thermometer!). Sprinkle 1 tbsp of gelatin on top. Wait 20 minutes. Microwave it, 20 seconds at a time, until the temperature is back up to 170 F, stirring in between (again, with a sanitized spoon). Once you're back up to 170 F (no higher!), and the gelatin is completely dissolved, pour it into the already-cold beer. In 48 hours, it should be crystal clear.

 

[mccartney]

after a little research i think thats a great idea. i hope our store has some non flavored because we are a small city and dont have a lot of variety in stores

 

[kombat]

after a little research i think thats a great idea. i hope our store has some non flavored because we are a small city and dont have a lot of variety in stores

Just go to a regular grocery store. You don't need any sort of special "brewer's gelatin" - the plain old, unflavored Knox Gelatin in the baking section of your grocery store is ideal. Heck, I buy mine by the bagful from a bin at Bulk Barn.

 

[mccartney]

do you generally use this on every brew or just the stubborn ones?

 

[kombat]

I do it for every brew, except stouts (because you can't tell whether it's clear or not anyway).

 

[mccartney]

at what point do YOU use the gelatin? do you do it in the primary or secondary?

i had mine in the secondary carboy for about a week before using it. i just used the gelatin about 24 hours ago. there is already a thin layer of sediment on top of the yeast sediment thats a slightly different color to it, so it appears to be working.

i was hoping it would make the brew a little more transparent, but i dont see any change in that. ive never had a brew at such high gravity, but ive been close to it, and still ended up with a brew almost as clear as commercial lagers. i dont know if its the extra malt and sugar i added, and i highly doubt there was any scorching during the boiling process, so im not sure why the brew is so dark.

it also has a strong malt flavor and a dry flavor as well. i added 1 lb of extra dme and 2 lbs of table sugar. im sure aging will improve the flavor but im concerned about the color.

i am planning to filter this brew this week. i will pass it through a 5 micron then a 1 micron into a keg and let it age there for a couple months.

also ogri mentioned that force carbonating in a keg can clear it up. is this true? so should i force carbonate as soon as it is transferred into the keg or let it age in the keg for a while before carbonating it?

 

[Leadgolem]

I've done a fair number of high abv wines that have been fortified with table sugar. It doesn't cloud the brew. To clear my wines I usually use a 1/2 tsp bentonite/ gallon. Then cold crash. They usually come out clear.

If you were making wine or cider I'd say you had pectin in the brew and needed some pectin enzyme. I can't see that you had any source for it in your case though.

 

[mccartney]

someone brought it to my attention today that it might be the crystal malt, but ive never had crystal malt do that before and it was only 1.5 lbs

 

[RIC0]

Wouldn't 24 hours be long enough at 40 degrees for all the sediment to sink? If the stuff drops at cold temps it seems like once it's a certain temp the stuff is going to drop? Or does it truly take a few days for it to clear up?

Anxious to get some bottled, the carboy has been in the fridge for 24 hours and looks pretty dang clear for a german spiced ale. Not sure letting it sit another day or two will really do anything or will it??

 

[Komocabo]

Question: When is the best time to add gelatin? This seems like a great idea but I don't know much about gelatin. Is it better to add it sooner in the process or later as in beginning of chilling your wort or 2 days before bottling?

 

[mccartney]

from what i found researching it, it doesnt seem to matter as long as you do it a few days before bottling, and your brew is cold. other than that, just when you have the time to do it.

and from my recent experience with it, it worked great

 

[RIC0]

Well I'll be bottling mine later today and it's currently been in the fridge for almost 24 hours and shows 40 degrees on the temp strip on the outside of the carboy. The true answer will be after its' bottled and sits for a few days. There's either gonna be some sediment or theirs not, i'll have clear bottles so I'll know.

I'll report back in this thread with my findings.

 

[mccartney]

if you are bottling and yeast carbonating, you're going to get sediment in your bottle anyways, so i don't think that's a good gauge of how much sediment might still be suspended in your carboy right now.

ive heard people say it takes 24 hours and ive heard others say it takes weeks to settle. it probably depends on several factors.

 

[Leadgolem]

Wouldn't 24 hours be long enough at 40 degrees for all the sediment to sink? If the stuff drops at cold temps it seems like once it's a certain temp the stuff is going to drop? Or does it truly take a few days for it to clear up?

Anxious to get some bottled, the carboy has been in the fridge for 24 hours and looks pretty dang clear for a german spiced ale. Not sure letting it sit another day or two will really do anything or will it??

24 hours is fine to get the yeast to shut down and drop out of solution. If you have other kinds of sediment to get rid of they can take longer. Though getting those to drop usually isn't temperature dependent. When I'm using bentonite to clear I find it takes about 3 days for the clearing agent to have done most of it's work. You do get some additional clearing up to about 8 days, but it's pretty minor after the first 3.

Enjoy your spiced ale.