Cleaning and sanitizing question.

[Jokester]

I clean with dish soap and boiling water, completely boiling, like heat a pint and put dish soap in the bottle and pour in boiling water and shake - and that is poured form bottle to bottle and these bottles have been cleaned before to remove anything already by plain hot tap water, then with tap water and dish soap.
After the boiling dish soapy water, I follow with 4-6 rounds of boiling water to get the dish soap out.
Then I put one teaspoon of starsani and 1pint of boiling water and repeat. 4-6 more boiling water rinses till all the water doesn't feel soapy. AKA all starsani is diluted out.
Then I seal up all the bottles and sit the bottles after they cool to touch.

Is it OK to sit these bottles for days if not more before filling them and usually they get frozen pretty soon after fill. Or do we starsani and put the beer in them asap.

Thanks.
Srinath.

 

[bucketnative]

Typically, one would use the StarSan immediately before bottling, and it is considered a "no-rinse" sanitizer. There is a small risk to introducing microbes via rinse water, but you are using boiling water, so that risk is minimal.

One thing that I would point out, is that your cleaning method may not remove any films or solid debris that are adhered to the bottles, such as a biofilm. Again, knowing that your process is one of freeze-concentrating, there is probably minimal risk to your final product with any film remaining in the bottles, as any infection would be slow to grow at freezing temperatures and at the final ABV of your freeze concentrated product.

If you were bottling normal beer, I would be much more concerned about removing biofilms, either mechanically or chemically (Oxi-Clean, PBW, or bleach will usually strip biofilms).

 

[Jokester]

Oh starsani isn't similar to oxy clean ?
Anyway you said use it immediately before bottling ? OK next one on will do, but thanks for confirming freezing helps keep any bad microbes down.
I use starsani at ridiculous strength. 1 teaspoon+ in a pint not 1 spoon in a gallon, maybe it takes me to the 3rd rinse before it dilutes itself to that normal strength. I'll from now on use star sani and rinse just before filling, I need a volunteer (my wife) to fill out of the gallon glass jars, I am a hand short for the time being, she's volunteered for later today. How later ? no idea.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[bucketnative]

Oh starsani isn't similar to oxy clean ?
Anyway you said use it immediately before bottling ? OK next one on will do, but thanks for confirming freezing helps keep any bad microbes down.
I use starsani at ridiculous strength. 1 teaspoon+ in a pint not 1 spoon in a gallon, maybe it takes me to the 3rd rinse before it dilutes itself to that normal strength. I'll from now on use star sani and rinse just before filling, I need a volunteer (my wife) to fill out of the gallon glass jars, I am a hand short for the time being, she's volunteered for later today. How later ? no idea.

Cool.
Srinath.

Why do you use StarSan at such a high concentration? The manufacturer specifies the dose that they tested in EPA-required studies to prove lethality against standard organisms. You don't really gain anything by using at a high concentration. You just buy more StarSan. At the manufacturer's specified concentration, it is a no-rinse sanitizer.

Oxi-Clean is a cleaner that will oxidatively attack residues left behind in bottles (or other equipment). StarSan is labeled as a sanitizer, not a cleaner. Star-San will not sanitize under biofilms or dirt/residues. The surfaces must be clean for it to be effective.

 

[Jokester]

Star sani I prefer to not make a gallon of it, I am not using a lot of floor space in this case. Just counter space for 8 bottles. Besides, its burning hot, I am sort of paranoid I have to set the water boiling, 1 gal of it is just asking to burn my hands off. I already have the burnt fingers to prove my paranoia. LOL.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[ncbrewer]

Is it OK to sit these bottles for days if not more before filling them and usually they get frozen pretty soon after fill. Or do we starsani and put the beer in them asap.

Normally, equipment is cleaned after use, stored in a clean area, and then sanitized immediately before use. The concern is that microbes could settle on the equipment while being stored. Air currents could even lift microbes up. It would take really good protection to ensure they don't become contaminate again - I just wouldn't feel confident they were still sanitized.

 

[ncbrewer]

Then I put one teaspoon of starsani and 1pint of boiling water and repeat. 4-6 more boiling water rinses till all the water doesn't feel soapy. AKA all starsani is diluted out.

In an interview with John Herskovits of Five Star
https://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post447/ Herskovits said luke warm water is ideal - stay below 110F. Still works in cold water (10C).

 

[DVCNick]

I think you'd have just as much success using the stuff per the directions and have less risk of burning your hands off.

When I'm cleaning bottles (or kegs) first, I rinse thoroughly with warm water immediately after they are emptied so nothing has a chance to dry in place. Then give them a good soak in PBW. Then rinse thoroughly and store them.

Then sanitize with a normal mix of Star San right before filling again.

 

[Jokester]

I cant clean drunk LOL.
Well, I clean the freeze concentrated bottles, but usually I have to let them melt, and while they're still ice, I shake them vigorously till they all Slurpee out. Then I usually fill it back up with cold beer.
I think I have been skating on the cleaning and sanitizing part because when warm these beers are full of co2. That kills anything growing for the weeks together they sit in my fermenter. Once they're out of the fermenters, they get chilled almost instantly. So co2 or cold.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

CO2 does not kill microbes.

 

[Jokester]

We don't want to kill microbes do we ? Isn't yeast a microbe as well LOL.

Neither does cold, not even freezing them. It just slows them down to near 0. I understand all of that. I have been fermenting stuff a while, including freeze concentrating for 7+ months.

Co2 prevents much of anything from growing except yeast. Since there is abundant quantity of yeast both in the yeast cake and in the beer itself, yeast flies through while other microbes choke on the co2.

Then they are frozen we don't let a non co2 locked up bottle see the open air, remember what I said about gravity checking 2-3 days apart and why I didn't want to do that. Anyway when frozen or refrigerated, no more microbe activity to speak of. Then drunk, all microbe activity is now Srinath's intestine microbes.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Co2 prevents much of anything from growing except yeast.

Lots of types of bacteria will happily grow in the presence of CO2.
Mold can also grow in the presence of CO2 as long as there is also oxygen.
And there's also wild yeast to worry about.

CO2 is not a form of sanitation.

 

[Jokester]

So how do you keep your head space from growing bacteria or mold ?
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[DVCNick]

You sanitize the bottle before you fill it. either boiling temperatures OR starsan should do it but Starsan is definitely easier

 

[RPh_Guy]

The normal way to prevent the growth of wild yeast and bacteria is to prevent them from getting into your beer.

All container(s) including fermenter and bottles should be no-rinse chemically sanitized or heat sanitized. They need to be clean in order to be chemically sanitized.
Everything that touches the beer (and wort) needs to be sanitary and air exposure needs to be minimized.

Mold growth is also prevented by limiting oxygen, even if spores are present.

As we've already discussed though, your process has an intrinsic barrier to contamination growth -- unnaturally high ABV. Very few microbes can grow in 20% ABV or higher.

 

[Jokester]

You sanitize the bottle before you fill it. either boiling temperatures OR starsan should do it but Starsan is definitely easier

How do you yeast cake a batch then. This basically releases so much Co2, I get airlock bubbling as I put it in. I am putting in a full ready to drink beer in it. Not a wort and have to wait for yeast to multiply then make co2 levels come up to getting the air hard to breathe. Less than 1" of head space in the neck of the gallon, immediate co2 taking up all the headspace. Co2 is so much heavier than air, and its definitely heavier than oxygen, the oxygen gets pushed up ward and into the airlock almost as the first thing that happens.

I've had mold grow on other things, including the ice I left unattended and left home for 3 weeks, but nothing on any that I intended to keep.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Jokester]

As we've already discussed though, your process has an intrinsic barrier to contamination growth -- unnaturally high ABV. Very few microbes can grow in 20% ABV or higher.

I am starting at as low as 6% abv. But co2 is the prevailing gas in the head space. A beer that's fully carbonated has a crap ton of co2, it gets out fast, in the first 2-3 days and I'd say it renders the air unbreathable for most anything.
Wild yeast … no idea may have them, its OK I guess. My dry fermenting turbo yeast may just run faster than any wild yeast. It already has the native yeasts they put in there too right.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

it renders the air unbreathable for most anything.

It doesn't.
Lactobacillus for example is a very common beer contaminant and it's facultatively anaerobic, meaning it will happily spend it's entire life without oxygen and with full CO2 saturation.

Wild yeast … no idea may have them, its OK I guess.

Lax sanitization is fine... until it's not and you lose a batch.

 

[danimal92sport]

Wow, Srinath from the GS Twins forum? I was Danimal on there and bought an exhaust pipe from you! Now I’m just cruising the home brew forums trying to learn and here you are!

 

[Jokester]

Lactobacillus has a strong preference for lactose and produces lactic acid from fermenting lactose. It may eat glucose as well, but its process to make lactic acid from glucose is very very slow. Of course it has alcohol tolerance and if I recall its digestion of alcohol is also pretty slow compared to lactose.
If I used a beer that had lactose and lactobacillus, which I have not even paid attention to so far, I have put in a few cans of coffee stout (Stone's espresso totalitarian stout) a well as lagunitas willetized (not even sure if these 2 had any lactose) I may have ended up with a high lactobacillus yeast cake.
I tend to stay away from sours and even stouts unless it was the stone or lagunitas (those 2 were exceptional and high high abv) I freeze concentrate a few stouts not ferment them.

Its possible I cant detect off flavor type problems like some of you can, however I can easily taste the base beer, the hyper fermented version and the freeze concentrated version, and if you gave these 3 to a non knowledgeable newb and told them this is the "beer syrup" and we add some water to it and make this "Brut" and we add some sprite instead and make this "beer" they would invariable trust you (yea they gonna have to be clueless about beer - but I know atleast 2 people who would … hint hint married to one and genetically related to the other one).
In any case, my co2 takes off at such speed, I am bubbling every 5 seconds starting the instant its corked for atleast 3 days. after which I have once had the airlock flatten out before cranking back up 2 days later and that's the one I bottled and froze today 16 days later. The 3 time yeast cake is likely OK I will probably clean it after mainly because I am getting a different beer in it, G13 is down to the last 4 pints - may just boost some other beer's dankness with it.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Jokester]

Wow, Srinath from the GS Twins forum? I was Danimal on there and bought an exhaust pipe from you! Now I’m just cruising the home brew forums trying to learn and here you are!

Oh noooooo never heard of it … nooooooo. My secret is out.

LOL, yes here I am modding the million year old process of beer - well, I am modifying beer.
I'm still on GSTwin and on star bolt forum as well. You were Danimal92sport there too right ? I am Jokester on this and SV forum cos my wife strongly said I need to not use my real name (and John of GSTwin conspired with Ken to change me to Buddha there when I was trying to go incognito) I pretty soon got bored of it and went back to Srinath and I sign everything Srinath LOL)

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Jokester]

Wow, Srinath from the GS Twins forum? I was Danimal on there and bought an exhaust pipe from you! Now I’m just cruising the home brew forums trying to learn and here you are!

Trust me, you don't want to learn anything from me. I don't even start with grain or mash or boil anything. I start with beer and make a "brut" and then freeze concentrate it to get lower carbs. The result seems to be a thick as soup concoction that will cold crash 5 times if you have the time, patience and freezer space. I'm consistently getting these to under the 1.00 mark but that's about where the story starts to go haywire. No idea what happens in the freezer. Yet to get one of these tested for abv or carbs.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lactobacillus has a strong preference for lactose and produces lactic acid from fermenting lactose. It may eat glucose as well, but its process to make lactic acid from glucose is very very slow.

Many species/strains of Lactobacillus can easily ferment a variety of sugars, including all the sugars in wort. This can occur very rapidly depending on the strain and temperature.
Lactobacillus mainly produces lactic acid from all of the different sugars it consumes. Lactobacillus and other bacteria also produce a variety of other flavor compounds.

Of course it has alcohol tolerance and if I recall its digestion of alcohol is also pretty slow compared to lactose.

Lactobacillus does not consume ethanol, at least not in any significant amount.

Lactobacillus and many other types of bacteria and yeast that can contaminate beer are pretty ubiquitous, meaning that they are everywhere and that contamination can easily occur from the brewing environment.

Not sure where you're getting all this incorrect info. ??

 

[Jokester]

I was thinking scoby for kombucha - that has lacto, aceto and yeast but I thought lactobacillus digests ethanol very slowly, its the aceto that does that. The beer has a lot of ethanol, and a ton of yeast and the amg is breaking starch to maltose, dextrose, glucose etc.

I really don't think its a big concern yet because I have never tried to ferment a beer that wasn't atleast 6% abv and most only had the potential to make another 1-2%. I also wont be messing with much less abv than in the 6% range.
You are still thinking wort. I have 4X the ethanol than digestibe sugar.
Putting Lactobacillus in a low sugar, high ethanol, high co2, and high yeast environment essentially is forcing it to extinction. Really I'd worry more about streptococcus not because it grows easier, but because its consequences are far far worse.

The source of all correct and incorrect info as always is Me, Myself and Google. I remember 1/2, I poorly word some phrase into google, it spits out some other guy's 1/2 remembered article and together we hope the 2 1/2s make a whole. Sometimes they make 2 wholes, sometimes they make a bupkis.

In any case, no lacto gonna grow in this too many factors against it, aceto needs lots of oxygen, strep is my biggest risk, and wild yeast - well I have added a turbo to a ale yeast already in these ales, so does it get any more of an unholy bastard than that. Throw in a wild yeast - not even sure I'll notice.

BTW I ferment things with lactobacillus all the time. I made a sauerkraut with lactobacillus Reuterii and L. rhamsnous. It doesn't easily jump in and take off like yeast does. However Lactobacillus acidophilus is the most prolific of the lacto strains.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I really don't think its a big concern yet because I have never tried to ferment a beer that wasn't atleast 6% abv and most only had the potential to make another 1-2%. I also wont be messing with much less abv than in the 6% range.
You are still thinking wort. I have 4X the ethanol than digestibe sugar.
Putting Lactobacillus in a low sugar, high ethanol, high co2, and high yeast environment essentially is forcing it to extinction. Really I'd worry more about streptococcus not because it grows easier, but because its consequences are far far worse.

None of this is true.
Many beer contaminants (bacteria and yeast) are well-suited for contaminating a 6% ABV beer. Lacto for example can easily tolerate 10% ABV, generally speaking.

The risk of contamination is very real even for a fermented beer. In fact, a common method of making sour beer is to add wild yeast and bacteria after the beer has already fermented with a clean primary strain.

The type of Strep that contaminates beer is not pathogenic, and it's not a common contaminant.

The source of all correct and incorrect info as always is Me, Myself and Google.

There's tons of misinformation out there, and it looks like you've picked up a lot of it.

Look at the diversity of microbes that contaminate beer during the conditioning and packaging steps:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3668669/

BTW I ferment things with lactobacillus all the time. I made a sauerkraut with lactobacillus Reuterii and L. rhamsnous. It doesn't easily jump in and take off like yeast does. However Lactobacillus acidophilus is the most prolific of the lacto strains.

The specific cultures you've used are a minuscule portion of the entire world of microbes, so you certainly can't extrapolate that experience to all 180+ species of Lacto and the variability among strains within those species, not to mention all the other types of bacteria and yeast that are contaminants. For example some species like L. plantarum ferment very rapidly even at room temperature.

I don't know what you mean by "most prolific", but L. acidophilus is certainly not the most common species of Lacto that contaminates beer.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Jokester]

I dunno man, this hasn't happened until the third yeast cake batch, which is the deepest I have gone in yeast caking. I am running my 2nd g13 in a gal that had a G13 I put in on jan 12th on top of a earlier yeast cake from a batch I started 14 dec I think. Is that 2 yeast cakes and 3 batches since cleaning it. The other 2 are 2 since clean and 1 yeast cake deep. Your steps show a lot in the process of making beer. Conditioning - Packaging is where they carbonate it right ?
BTW they even say dry yeast shouldn't be used past 2, if the G13 flops now, I know that is to be thought of as well.
No one has been fermenting fully carbonated beer with amg and turbo yeast in addition to its native yeast.

Acidophilus is the most prolific when you add it to milk to make yogurt, which is why "greek" yogurt isn't made with Bulgaricus and Plantarum. So its really just filtered thickened yogurt.

So far all the beers I have modded, even the blends are easily identifiable as their base beers, nothing has gone haywire. Anyone wants to try one of these, come on over and try it. Oh well I only have G13 in all 3 forms. Soon I'll be melting off the concentrate so I guess the NA makes it 4 forms, but the NA gonna get thrown in the next 24 hrs unless someone wants it. It may just be a reduced alcohol not NA.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Jokester]

This is the gallon bottles. The G13 was started on top of yeast cake on 12th Jan, it was the one that bubbled and stopped and nearly went level only to return to bubbling before levelling out again. It went to .998 or so. The redhare+ jai alai mix was started on dec 20th 2019 in a cleaned gallon jug. Yes with tremendous amount of heat and star sani and then boiling water, and it was a new bottle.
It has now been filled back with Double indemnity on top of yeast cake.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Jokester]

These look oxidized ? I know sometimes its hard to tell from color its not like steel rusting.
I'll get a pic of the ice after it melts, before tossing it.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Your steps show a lot in the process of making beer. Conditioning - Packaging is where they carbonate it right ?

My point was that microbes can contaminate the beer at any point, regardless of alcohol presence or anaerobic conditions. Your process is no exception.

Acidophilus is the most prolific when you add it to milk to make yogurt, which is why "greek" yogurt isn't made with Bulgaricus and Plantarum.

L. acidophilus is used because of perceived health benefits (L. acidophilus is a well-known species of Lacto used as a probiotic). Any species of Lacto can make yogurt, maybe even faster than L. acidophilus.

Greek yogurt is thicker because it has more of the whey drained off. The thickness has nothing to do with the bacterial culture used.

These look oxidized ?

You should judge by taste. If you like it, then it's all good.

Assuredly it is oxidized to some degree. You're using old beer and further exposing it to air.

 

[Jokester]

You're missing my point about yogurt. And I didn;t say thickness is because of bacteria etc etc.
This is what I am trying to say - once again.

L Acidophilus is just about the most abundant in our digestive tract. So adding a billion more makes no difference. Greek yogurt is supposed to be made with Bulgaricus and plantarum. That's what makes it greek. Commercially they use acidophilus because its faster. Even better than bulgaricus and plantarum is reuterii and rhamsnous. They will make yogurt just fine, just take 4X as long.
Greek yogurt as sold in stores is thicker due to whey drained off yes, but its also the same as just filtered yogurt. The Bulgaricus, plantarum being in abundance is what makes it "greek" and not just filtered/thickened.

Microbes contaminating the beer and your flow chart etc all cover the beer till it got to me. I just wanted to know where they carbonate it. I am only concerned with what can contaminate it after its been carbonated, because It will have never got to me if it was contaminated before. As in - that flow chart while makes for good reading, is nearly useless because I am dealing with a carbonated alcohol dense drink.

Now this process is new to me, the hyperfermenting but freeze concentrating it is not. No one has said anything was off/wrong with that - but again that is sealed till its cold, put in a bottle cold and frozen. Nothing in that process was ever above 35F once open. The added ferment step is what has new concerns of contamination and oxidation.

Essentially this concentrate is very close to the previous versions without the hyper ferment though I have only done both steps to redhare and Jai alai and yea Maibock. Yeesh it was a disgusting beer that made a disgusting everything till it met about 20% espresso from stone.

Anyway this process is analog with a knee. I'm sure I haven't hit the knee yet.
Lets see what Double indemnity does because it was my favorite in the pre hyperferment set.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

L Acidophilus is just about the most abundant in our digestive tract.

This is not true.
https://aem.asm.org/content/74/16/4985

Greek yogurt is supposed to be made with Bulgaricus and plantarum. That's what makes it greek.

I'm not sure I want to debate this.
Everywhere I've seen says that straining it makes it "Greek". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strained_yogurt

If you have a different definition, that's fine.

The added ferment step is what has new concerns of contamination and oxidation.

Correct! That was the only message I'm trying to send. Contamination is possible during your fermentation.

Cheers

 

[Jokester]

But your chart only covers pre carbonation and most of it is pre alcohol. Completely irrelevant to my contamination possibility.

You are free to eat yogurt as you see fit. (neither of your 2 links say what you think they do BTW)

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

But your chart only covers pre carbonation and most of it is pre alcohol. Completely irrelevant to my contamination possibility.

[...] (neither of your 2 links say what you think they do BTW)

If you understand that many different types of wild yeast and bacteria can contaminate your fermentation, and consequently sanitation is important, then we're good here.

 

[Jokester]

How do you scrape the bottom film out of these cam lock bottles … I know those bottle brushes, but the bottom needs these to have an L shape ? Now if I bend it, it wont work its way down the throat.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How do you scrape the bottom film out of these cam lock bottles … I know those bottle brushes, but the bottom needs these to have an L shape ? Now if I bend it, it wont work its way down the throat.

• Hot PBW soak.
• Brush. https://www.morebeer.com/products/beer-bottle-cleaning-brush.html
• Hot water rinse.
• Acid rinse.

If you can, it helps a lot to rinse bottles immediately after they're emptied.

 

[Jokester]

I think this was a bottle that got the bottom of my 20% espresso 80% maibock and I actually put a few grams of sugar in those and let em carbonate.
Let me look into different brushes, and acid rinse ? Like muriatic acid ? Y'know now you're talking my language. Put some of that and some water and boil it, pretty much will punch right through the glass and then I'll be really happy. LOL. I'm only 1/2 joking BTW.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Soulshine2]

I clean with dish soap and boiling water, completely boiling, like heat a pint and put dish soap in the bottle and pour in boiling water and shake - and that is poured form bottle to bottle and these bottles have been cleaned before to remove anything already by plain hot tap water, then with tap water and dish soap.
After the boiling dish soapy water, I follow with 4-6 rounds of boiling water to get the dish soap out.
Then I put one teaspoon of starsani and 1pint of boiling water and repeat. 4-6 more boiling water rinses till all the water doesn't feel soapy. AKA all starsani is diluted out.
Then I seal up all the bottles and sit the bottles after they cool to touch.

Is it OK to sit these bottles for days if not more before filling them and usually they get frozen pretty soon after fill. Or do we starsani and put the beer in them asap.

Thanks.
Srinath.

too much work. and risk leaving soap residue.
my bottle prep, usually the day (morning)before I plan on bottling - I put all my bottles on their sides in a large enough insulated cooler with 1 oz bleach, 1 tbsp Oxi-Clean and fill it with the hottest water out of the faucet until it comes up near the top, probably around 7 gallons . close the lid , let it sit all day. Usually by afternoon , the water is still hot but not so much I cant put my hand in it. Take each bottle out ,shake/ empty , turn upside down in a cardboard case with dividers. Bottling day each bottle gets a healthy squirt of star san (along with everything else in the process), shaken (so its foamy)and drained again. Bottle. Star san is only active while wet so if youve done that and let it dry , you need to do it again just prior to bottling. You can leave the foam in the bottle (foam is good), it wont hurt anything.

 

[RPh_Guy]

acid rinse ?

A rinse with a some diluted citric or phosphoric acid helps to remove inorganic residue.

 

[Jokester]

A rinse with a some diluted citric or phosphoric acid helps to remove inorganic residue.

Citric acid … come on what's the fun in that. OK fine phosphoric acid it be then.

too much work.

My constraint is space more than time of effort. Putting a gallon in the middle of my kitchen is asking for my wife to throw a fit, sadly she's already put up with so much.

Boiling water and 2hrs is far easier, and phosphoric or sigh, citric acid if I must works better too and just adds an hour or so.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Soulshine2]

Citric acid … come on what's the fun in that. OK fine phosphoric acid it be then.




My constraint is space more than time of effort. Putting a gallon in the middle of my kitchen is asking for my wife to throw a fit, sadly she's already put up with so much.

Boiling water and 2hrs is far easier, and phosphoric or sigh, citric acid if I must works better too and just adds an hour or so.

Cool.
Srinath.

i dont understand why some people (the subject is usually wives) throw a fit over anything . If you and your spouse dont support each others hobbies and interests why or how did you get married in the first place? My wife more than tolerates my brewing hobby, she gets almost as excited about it as I do.

Back to your subject. - dish soap doesnt touch anything in my brewing process nor any beer glasses. it leaves too much of a residue and will kill beer - either taste or the head .

Use a good cleaner and rinse well with hot water ,it doesnt have to be boiling water, hottest out of the tap is fine. I like the scent free oxi clean , or the PBW everyone seems to like. personally ive never used it. Star san is in its essential form ,phosphoric acid .its concentrated and for what you really use , it's cheap and wont harm your beer . I made up a gallon a year ago and after about 6 brews since then I still have most of it left.