Clean your stuff..seriously

[bbohanon]

So I was over at a friends house who started brewing about 6 months ago and he had been bugging me to come over and have a brew day with him to see what he could be doing better as his beers just were not coming out as expected..

When I arrived, I was a bit taken aback at what I saw (I tried to hide my total shock as best as I could), but wanted to ping you guys to see if I am just a whacko guy when it comes to cleanliness..

- His brewpot and fittings inside had a very noticable layer of beerstone in it (YUK!)

- His hoses were a dark yellow tint (which I understand happens from use, but I always recirc with PBW and 190Deg water for 30 minutes after every brew and they clear right up).

- I saw bits and pieces of caked hop debris from previous batches in the "in-between" of the coils of his IM Chiller

- When he fired up his pump, the first bit of hot water that came out of it had various junk and was a brackish color before it cleared up.(again, YUK!)

- His cooler MT smelled sour and had again a layer of dried scum in it from previous batches.

I stopped him from even proceeding with the brew at that point and we did a 2 hour breakdown/clean-up. Top to bottom and the amount of crap that came off all his gear was staggering. Even he was shocked that there was that much crap "stuck" to his gear.

He told me he was rinsing and sanitizing everything which I told him is not enough. You have to CLEAN your gear (elbow grease/PBW time) before you rinse and sanitize.

Once everything was back together and cleaned up and sanitized, we brewed..Results of the clean out affecting the beer is still to be determined but I am betting this was a large part of his issue.

So how nuts are you all with this stuff? My cleaning regimen is adds about 2 hours to my brewday as I clean everything meticulously, but its one of the most important things I do in my own mind. My thoughts are if you dont clean it now, your beer will suffer later.

How ADD are you w/this?

 

[Murphys_Law]

I clean everything after brew day but wouldn't say I'm ADD about it. Heck, I have been known to just run very hot water through some of my tubing (I do it immediately after use so I never have to deal with stuck-on crap). I'll break down my valves after a few brew days, and my fermenters are always clean. I'll scour my kettle with bar keepers friend, wash my IC to get all the hop debris off, break down my little recirc pump to get hop debris out, and let everything dry before storing.

But it sounds like your buddy did <minimum when it came to clean-up!

 

[wyowolf]

I dont spend two hours, but I only have a eBIAB rig to clean. Once the SS basket is out, I dump the grains and spray it off outside... never use PWB on it...seems pretty clean.

the rest i dump out the trub crap after, disconnect the power temp prob etc TC fittings and take over to the sink and rinse with hot water pwb and scrubby

Hoses immediately rinse them with hot water for few min the hang to dry... basically hot water immediately through everything... plate chiller i hook up to hot water and blast it a few times each port back and forth...

I think letting it sit builds up more stuff...

I wish I had some easier way to CIP but I cant think of one that would be more work than I am doing now...

 

[ncbrewer]

I would be just as concerned as you about most of what you saw. The yellow tint on tubing might not really be a problem - I'd try an oxi soak, and clean what can be reached at the end with a Q-tip to see if anything comes out. If it does, then I'd replace it since it would be hard to clean it any better. There are ways, but I'd replace it anyway.

 

[Clef051]

I use just soap and water for everything preboil, Hoses I usually just run hot water through and then sanitize. my immersion cooler i generally just spray of with the hose, scrub it if it is needed. Sometimes I soak the hoses in oxiclean for a while if they get anything stuck in them. I clean as I go so I don't have a huge pile of things to clean at the end. its maybe half-hour to a hour of clean up after brewing is done.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Single vessel brewer (BIAB) here...

The only thing I use PBW for is soaking my starter flasks. I use Oxiclean for cleaning kegs. Everything else, including my fermenters gets a hot water rinse with no soap or cleaners of any kind. Any caked on stuff in the kettle or stainless Brewbucket fermenter gets a wipe-off with a wet paper towel or sponge, followed by a hot water rinse. Brew bag is dumped and hot rinsed for maybe 30 seconds to get the sugars out and most of the grain bits off, then hung to dry. Most of my brew day cleaning is done as I go and by the time the wort is chilled and in the fermenter, all that is left to clean is the kettle (hot rinse, wipe off, hot rinse, towel dry), ball valve/weldless fittings (hot rinse), and the IC (hot rinse, hang upside down to drain for a few minutes, put away wet), which all takes maybe 10 minutes. Every so often (6 months, give or take) I'll disassemble the kettle ball valve. All my hoses are silicone and just get a hot water rinse after use and hang dry. Beerstone in my kettle doesn't bother me, but I will clean it once it gets bad, maybe once every couple years, which is about 30-40 brews.

Over the years, I've found that it takes very little effort to keep my gear clean.

 

[processhead]

On the hot side of the brewing process, a brewer might get away with less than spotless cleaning. If the immersion chiller gets dunked in the boil kettle prior to chilling, it probably is ok.
Post boil is where cleanliness and sanitation become critical because you don't have the benefit of heat to sanitize the wort and associated working surfaces in your equipment touches the cold wort. Cooled wort is food for any bacteria that touches it.
Personally, I like it all to be physically clean.

 

[Owly055]

Microbes of course are the issue. Moist junk caught in various places is a place for microbes to grow. PBW or Starsan are not going to do the job if there are deposits for microbes to hide in.........

The more complex your system, the more cleaning is necessary. I opted out of using pumps and hoses &c. I refuse to use a plate chiller........... at least until I can find one that comes apart for cleaning. You absolutely cannot flush them adequately. Too many nooks and crannies. Counterflow is better for sanitation, immersion is best. As the efficiency increases the sanitation issues also increase. I rinse my immersion chiller off, and don't worry about it, as it is immerses in boiling hot wort, and only the outside surfaces contact the wort, and those are sterilized immediately.

Only the "cold side" presents any real sanitation issues. Getting rid of the gunk in your RIMS or HERMS system is good, but it's an asthetic issue not a sanitation issue. I use BIAB, which neatly side steps much of the clean up issues.

You would have been horrified by my continuous brew setup.......... It got really "ugly" with it's accumulation of semi dried krausen. I pulled 1/3 of the volume of my conical out each week, and added an equal amount of boiling hot wort, after loosening the yeast ball to isolate it from the heat. In 20 batches, repitching the same Kveik yeast, the fermenter produced a uniformly good product with never a hint of infection.

I only quit my continuous brew because I was brewing and drinking too much beer. I've backed off to the occasional batch, and my fondness for alcohol has brought me around to the point that I intend to pretty much quit brewing and drinking except the occasional social drink.

I'm still working on a couple of "fringe" experiments. When they are complete, I will dispose of most of my equipment and left over materials, keeping in mind that I may want to do the occasional small batch (2 gallons) once or twice a year. It's time to move on to other pursuits, such as outfitting a sailboat for world cruising.


H.W.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'm a chef so I'm ADD about cleaning my gear at home and at work. I also brew sours and ferment and age them in the same space as clean beers. That adds another level of concern to my cleanliness.

I cip everything. I use hot PBW, a hot rinse and acid #5 to sanitize. I do alternate in some iodophor at times just to mix it up.

I buy PBW in 5 gallon buckets and split it with a buddy. Knock on wood I haven't had an unintentional souring or infection.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I've listened to a lot of pod cast over the years. I've heard comments about a very highly awarded home brewer, who's boil kettle is heavily caked with beer stone. He believes that sanitation starts after the boil. In theory, he is correct.

 

[HopGobbler]

I clean everything after every brew day, I also immediately clean any fermenters or utensils immediately after they're used

 

[Owly055]

I've listened to a lot of pod cast over the years. I've heard comments about a very highly awarded home brewer, who's boil kettle is heavily caked with beer stone. He believes that sanitation starts after the boil. In theory, he is correct.

Of course he's correct...............

 

[Owly055]

I often use my Annova Sous Vide to sterilize my 2 gallon glass ice tea jug fermeters. I've switched back and forth between kombucha and beer in the same fermenter with no problems.

H.W.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I don't PBW everything. Hot side stuff gets a variety of cleaning meathods:

Cooler MT - hose down, run clean water through the valve. After clean water boil of the kettle/hoses/pump, dump boiling hot water in and run through the valve. After I'm done with sanitizer, I dump it into the MT and drain through the valve

Kettle - Clean with soap/hot water. Put back on burner and boil clean water.

Pump/WP hoses - clean in sink, then circulate boiling water through them

Immersion chiller - hose off, clean with soap/water.

Cold side:

Pump (for xfer to ferm): see hot side. Sanitized with wort boil

Ferm - wash with soap and water. Rinse well. Sanitize with starsan.

Other (wine thief, racking cane, etc.) - rinse with hot water immediately after use, sanitize with starsan

 

[itsnotrequired]

on the cold side, i am very thorough with cleaning/sanitation. carboys get a pbw clean after brewing and a good sanitizing just before use. similar with kegs, hoses, racking cane, you name it. on the hot side, i am a little more laid back. everything gets wiped down, with a soft scrubby for the stickier stuff in the mash/boil kettles (all my stuff is stainless). key is to get the stuff off why it is still wet. once a year, i run hot pbw through everything (kettles, hoses, pumps, etc.) my new system has been up and running only 15 months or so and i have yet to do a complete breakdown of all the valves, fittings, etc. no problems so far.

 

[iijakii]

Personally I'm always amazed at how rigorous I see people on this forum. Two hours cleaning? I probably wouldnt brew if I had to do that everytime, lol.

I'm BIAB again just because of cleaning. Love it. My bag takes about one minute to clean. Seriously. Dump and spray. Then my boil kettle gets sprayed and a very qucik scrub. I dont PBW it all the time. Ive found since I went electric that my BK is very easy to clean, no scorching etc. Ive never noticed any film or gunk on it. I stopped breaking down my ball valve after I did it a few times even with a year in between and never had any visible gunk in it. I always actuate it few times when cleaning and rinsing, so maybe that's the trick.

Fermenters get a more thorough treatment but they're stainless too so once again 1min with a sprayhose and scour pad gets you about there and then a 30sec scrub with some hot water and PBW is all you need.

 

[bbohanon]

I've listened to a lot of pod cast over the years. I've heard comments about a very highly awarded home brewer, who's boil kettle is heavily caked with beer stone. He believes that sanitation starts after the boil. In theory, he is correct.

So my .02 on my hot side components and YMMV (this is not to start an argument but just my own experience with this over the last 5 years of brewing).

MT - Clean this bad boy. If I can stick my head down by your MT and smell old grain, there is probably bits and pieces of grain granules somewhere that did not get cleaned up hiding in the shadows. These hidden grains rot and starts to stink which is what are smelling if you can smell last batch in the MT. Why would you want to mash the next batch in with that?

BK - Beerstone is a subject of debate, but I had a beerstone problem when I first started brewing and I thought it no big deal until I started to get an odd taste in my beers. It was the same oddity in every beer I made and I could not figure it out. Someone recommended a full beerstone irradication on this forum and I went on a mission to remove it (and there was alot of it on my gear at that time).
The oddity in my beer immediately went away so I have always been an anti-beerstone guy. I want my SS pots to shine like new when I am done with brew day.

HLT - This is usually just a got hot rinse before brewday to knock any dust from my building that may have settled in the pot between brews.

HLT HERMS coil - I CIP this bad boy heavily with 190deg water and PBW with a hot rinse and SS rinse. Things lurk in there that can mold/rot/etc if not attended to as I use my HERMS not only to recirc hot, but to chill as well.

Cold Side:

Hoses: Always CIP them with 190Deg PBW for 30, followed with a 190 rinse/SS rinse. They have stayed as clear as a bell to date and I brew quite a bit.

Fermenter: I ferment in a 15.5 Gal Sanke Keg that always get a 200deg PBW CIP Soak after every batch with a 190 deg rinse and SS rinse.

Kegs: My kegs I get a 200deg hot PBW fill bath after the 2nd batch goes through them along with a hot rinse/SS rinse. I have a ziplock bag taped to the side of every keg with a log and date of last cleaning.

I know many of you probably think this absolutely crazy and over the top, but after winning a few competitions and getting to be in craft breweries on brew days (one where my beer got brewed as the grand prize), most all of them are just as nuts as I am it seems with their sanitary practices so I figure why shouldn't I be the same way?

Again..this is just my crazy world with this hobby..:fro:

 

[brick_haus]

Is this really a thread?

 

[mattdee1]

Personally I'm always amazed at how rigorous I see people on this forum. Two hours cleaning? I probably wouldnt brew if I had to do that everytime, lol.

No doubt!

Fermenters, tubing, bottling equipment -- all spic 'n' span.

Kettle, mash tun, mash paddle, immersion chiller -- take 5 minutes to spray 'em down with a high pressure stream of hot water when the stuff on them is still fresh. Done.

I do pay attention to my kettle ball valve, though. I have two of them that I alternate--while I use one, the other soaks in PBW.

 

[brewcat]

Generally I just hot water rinse & wipe after use. Soap and water for the brew kettle and chiller. Other than that, the only thing I really clean would be kegs and lines after they kick. And disassemble faucets every few brews. As long as there isn't anything sticking, things are clean to sanitize.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I guess I'm pretty normal in terms of cleanliness. I clean my kettle well enough that there's no scum or debris visible, but I don't go at every blemish until it's spotless either. My immersion chiller gets rinsed and wiped until there's nothing actually clinging to it, but I don't really take it farther than that. Fermenters get cleaned with pbw until there's nothing visible on them and rinsed very well afterward.

I don't have a complex system that requires pumps and the like though. One of my holdups with such a setup is having to clean all the little nooks and crannies such a system would necessarily have. I like to be able to clean things while I'm brewing and at most have another 30 minutes of cleaning to do after the brew is in the fermenter. There's definitely something to be said for having nothing but a simple, un-ported, not connected to anything else, pot to clean at the end.

 

[soccerdad]

How do you eradicate beer stone? I am able to minimize it, but never quite get rid of it.

 

[Murphys_Law]

So my .02 on my hot side components and YMMV (this is not to start an argument but just my own experience with this over the last 5 years of brewing).

MT - Clean this bad boy. If I can stick my head down by your MT and smell old grain, there is probably bits and pieces of grain granules somewhere that did not get cleaned up hiding in the shadows. These hidden grains rot and starts to stink which is what are smelling if you can smell last batch in the MT. Why would you want to mash the next batch in with that?

BK - Beerstone is a subject of debate, but I had a beerstone problem when I first started brewing and I thought it no big deal until I started to get an odd taste in my beers. It was the same oddity in every beer I made and I could not figure it out. Someone recommended a full beerstone irradication on this forum and I went on a mission to remove it (and there was alot of it on my gear at that time).
The oddity in my beer immediately went away so I have always been an anti-beerstone guy. I want my SS pots to shine like new when I am done with brew day.

HLT - This is usually just a got hot rinse before brewday to knock any dust from my building that may have settled in the pot between brews.

HLT HERMS coil - I CIP this bad boy heavily with 190deg water and PBW with a hot rinse and SS rinse. Things lurk in there that can mold/rot/etc if not attended to as I use my HERMS not only to recirc hot, but to chill as well.

Cold Side:

Hoses: Always CIP them with 190Deg PBW for 30, followed with a 190 rinse/SS rinse. They have stayed as clear as a bell to date and I brew quite a bit.

Fermenter: I ferment in a 15.5 Gal Sanke Keg that always get a 200deg PBW CIP Soak after every batch with a 190 deg rinse and SS rinse.

Kegs: My kegs I get a 200deg hot PBW fill bath after the 2nd batch goes through them along with a hot rinse/SS rinse. I have a ziplock bag taped to the side of every keg with a log and date of last cleaning.

I know many of you probably think this absolutely crazy and over the top, but after winning a few competitions and getting to be in craft breweries on brew days (one where my beer got brewed as the grand prize), most all of them are just as nuts as I am it seems with their sanitary practices so I figure why shouldn't I be the same way?

Again..this is just my crazy world with this hobby..:fro:

Why do you rinse with SS? I never bring out the SS until just before it's needed. You can rinse all you want but a after a very short period of time it's not going to matter for the surface that received the rinse.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Why do you rinse with SS? I never bring out the SS until just before it's needed. You can rinse all you want but a after a very short period of time it's not going to matter for the surface that received the rinse.

sanitize just before use is the only way to fly

 

[jekeane]

If I were not going to brew for an extended period of time I would likely do a more exhaustive cleaning.

I rinse my pumps and hoses out as soon as I am done with them.

I give both my BK and MT a 10 minute wash with a scrubby and a little oxyclean. I do disassemble and clean my sight glasses as I find them to be the most likely hiding place for gross.

My cleaning regimen including emptying the mash tun and cleaning all the extra odds and ends probably takes under an hour. My mash tun, whisk, hlt herms coil are all clean and put away before the boil is done.

The main thing that would bother me about your friend is the crap on his chiller. If you are boiling it from a sanitization factor you'll likely be fine but from a flavor perspective especially in light beers who knows how much old hop debris it takes to change flavor...

 

[madscientist451]

Ok, cleaning is important, I use PBW and Star San and all my brewing gear is cleaned and sanitized. I do it protectively, to avoid problems. Is it all necessary? Sometimes I think not. Check out this video: they pick up apples off the ground, use an ancient apple masher and press that uses straw instead of cloths and ferment in old barrels. I'm pretty sure none of this stuff has ever seen any Star-san or PBW, the cider isn't boiled to kill off any infections like beer is and they've been doing it this way for generations.
Does lack of sanitation have any effect on their cider?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOiMFnxBrVc[/ame]

 

[GPP33]

All that stuff the OP made his buddy clean out is the seasoning on the brew equipment. Much like a well seasoned cast iron skillet. That'll take years to rebuild.

 

[bbohanon]

Why do you rinse with SS? I never bring out the SS until just before it's needed. You can rinse all you want but a after a very short period of time it's not going to matter for the surface that received the rinse.

Honestly, I cannot answer that other than at the end of a brew day, I usually have enough left over to use for this purpose and just have always done it..

When I say SS rinse, I mean more of a spray/wipe down with SSan than a full on soak type of rinse.
I read somewhere that SSan does help keep everything passivized but at this point its just habit more than anything else.

 

[bbohanon]

All that stuff the OP made his buddy clean out is the seasoning on the brew equipment. Much like a well seasoned cast iron skillet. That'll take years to rebuild.

LOL..This made me laugh as I also smoke meat and NEVER have cleaned the grease from the sides of my UDS smoker as that seasoning makes the BBQ that much better.

Its about a 1/4 of an inch thick at this point and I swear if I started a fire in it, it would just explode with that much grease caked on the inside.

Seems backwards but again..no one (especially my wife) ever claimed I was a sane man.

 

[Miraculix]

Hot water, a sponge and soap does the job for me.

 

[mattdee1]

How do you eradicate beer stone? I am able to minimize it, but never quite get rid of it.

You need something acidic. I tend to get some build up on the bottom of my kettle. Recently I left about 1" of Star San in the bottom of the kettle for several days, and the gunk peeled off like masking tape.

 

[beernutz]

To each his own but I am with the contingent that focuses on post boil equipment cleaning and sanitation. I use just hot water saved from cooling with an immersion chiller to clean the mash tun and boil kettle using a Scotch Brite pad after each brew. I also run that hot water through the wort pump and any silicon tubing which came in contact with wort.

Maybe once a year I'll get the Barkeepers Friend out and shiny up the inside of the boil keggle. I've been doing it that way for more than a decade.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Maybe once a year I'll get the Barkeepers Friend out and shiny up the inside of the boil keggle. I've been doing it that way for more than a decade.

i just did that for the first time, after about 15 brews. i let the kettle soak in hot pbw for an hour or so and while it cleaned it up a little but, there was still obvious staining. whipped out the barkeepers friend and damn, that thing was like a mirror after only a couple minutes work. i'm probably not going to bother with pbw soaks of the kettles anymore, reserving that more for the hoses and pumps.

 

[MaryB]

Mash tun gets a cold water rinse and a scrub with a green scouring pad to get stuck grain off, then rinsed until clean inside, HLT gets tipped upside down to dry, boil kettle gets hot water I collect in the mash tun(secondary hot rinse after it is clean) from the immersion chiller. I use the same green scrub pad to make sure any stuck on gunk is gone then a cold water rinse and dried by inverting. Mash tun is dried by inverting also. Inverted keeps the garage bugs from invading too!

Valves I connect the hose to and I work the valve back and forth 15-20 times(you should see the gunk that comes out the first 4-5 open/close cycles) then a final rinse before I invert the MT and BK to dry.

 

[MaryB]

Why I went 3 tier gravity fed. HLT gets tipped upside down to dry when empty(after all it just had 170 degree water), MT gets a cold water rinse/scrub with a kitchen green scrubber(stainless) then a cold water second rinse and put back on the burner. BK gets the green scrubby then rinsed with hot water from the immersion chiller I put in the MT, then a final cold water rinse of the MT and BK to flush the valves as I open/close them a bunch of times.

Takes me 15 minutes to finish cleanup after the wort is in the fermenter. After a 5+ hour brew session that is all I want to spend.

I might use PBW in the BK every 20-30 batches if to much beer stone is building up and the scrubber pad isn't taking it off.

I guess I'm pretty normal in terms of cleanliness. I clean my kettle well enough that there's no scum or debris visible, but I don't go at every blemish until it's spotless either. My immersion chiller gets rinsed and wiped until there's nothing actually clinging to it, but I don't really take it farther than that. Fermenters get cleaned with pbw until there's nothing visible on them and rinsed very well afterward.

I don't have a complex system that requires pumps and the like though. One of my holdups with such a setup is having to clean all the little nooks and crannies such a system would necessarily have. I like to be able to clean things while I'm brewing and at most have another 30 minutes of cleaning to do after the brew is in the fermenter. There's definitely something to be said for having nothing but a simple, un-ported, not connected to anything else, pot to clean at the end.

 

[radwizard]

I clean my cold side stuff very well. I don't see the reason to clean my boil kettle, or mash tun with any more effort then cleaning a kitchen pot. I try to keep it presentable, but that about it...