Clean in place

[h22lude]

When I clean my e-BIAB kettle, I have to dumb all the trub out and then recirculate cleaner through and then water to rinse and I still rinse all the parts. How do you remove the trub with CIP? Do you still have to dump the trub manually before recirculating the cleaner?

I also find I need to scrub the hop debris off the side even when using a good pressure sprayer with very hot water. Does CIP get all that off too?

 

[processhead]

I don't know of any CIP systems that are entirely hands-off. If there isn't something to scrub down, it must not be home brewing.

 

[Qhrumphf]

A bottom drain where everying can be rinsed out the bottom.

And caustic. Without something as strong (and dangerous) as caustic, I simply wouldn't trust CIP.

 

[h22lude]

Right, that is what I was thinking. So then what is really the point of CIP for home brewing?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'd say there really isn't one. CIP is for things like hard piping and massive vessels that few homebrewers will ever have. Things that either cannot be cleaned/verified clean by hand (like piping), or are too unwieldy to clean by hand (like a commercial fermener).

 

[Vale71]

Right, that is what I was thinking. So then what is really the point of CIP for home brewing?

Buying more gizmos?

 

[morbster]

In that same line of thinking, how often does everyone clean the equipment that isn’t easy to scrub down? Items like EZ-clean ball valves, chugger pumps, etc.

I feel like my post-brew cleaning process has room for improvement.

 

[lump42]

In that same line of thinking, how often does everyone clean the equipment that isn’t easy to scrub down? Items like EZ-clean ball valves, chugger pumps, etc.

I feel like my post-brew cleaning process has room for improvement.

Every 2 to 3 brews I disassemble the valve on my kettle. After every brew I disassemble my pump and rinse the head out.

 

[FunkedOut]

The pump and ball valves are the only pieces I “CIP.”
I leave my pump, valves and hoses configured in whirlpool after the brew.
I first dump the trub, before filling the kettle with 5 gallons of hot water saved from the chilling, and add PBW.
Run the pump for about 15 minutes while I scrub the kettle and use it as a sink to wash other bits.
Then dump the PBW and repeat with 5 gallons of hot water rinse. I save the hottest 5 gallons for the rinse.

Cracking the valves a bit from fully open let’s the liquid flow to get to the insides of the valves.

I open up the pump and valves twice a year.

 

[Vale71]

I disassemble and clean the ball valves every time, which is why I'm trying to replace as many of them as possible with butterfly valves...
I CIP my pump and my RIMS tube but always remove the heating element from it to check for scorching afterwards. As it has a TC attachment that doesn't take more than a couple of minutes.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yeah I wouldn't trust CIP on a ball valve.

An open ball valve has shadows that don't get clean. A closed ball valve gets no flow, and poor clean. A throttled ball valve has shadows and restricted flow.

If it's hot side, may not be the end of the world. But completely unacceptable for sanitary applications.

 

[h22lude]

In that same line of thinking, how often does everyone clean the equipment that isn’t easy to scrub down? Items like EZ-clean ball valves, chugger pumps, etc.

I feel like my post-brew cleaning process has room for improvement.

I take everything about after every brew. I have all TC fittings except two TC threaded fittings on my chugger pump (which I always forget to take apart because I forget about them). I have two EZ Clean TC valves which I take apart every brew. I am very OCD with cleaning which is why I had the question about CIP.

 

[morbster]

That’s good to hear, thanks. I have a similar setup (all TC fittings except threaded connections on my pump), and I would say I’m a little less concerned with cleaning. I clean my ball valve after every brew, but I take my pump apart every 2-3 brews. Don’t recall the last time I cleaned my threads, but that’s also because I forget.

I do a recirculation with 160 degree water and PBW, then a 160 degree recir with pure water, which I tell myself is enough to keep my pump and threaded connections “clean enough.”

 

[h22lude]

That’s good to hear, thanks. I have a similar setup (all TC fittings except threaded connections on my pump), and I would say I’m a little less concerned with cleaning. I clean my ball valve after every brew, but I take my pump apart every 2-3 brews. Don’t recall the last time I cleaned my threads, but that’s also because I forget.

I do a recirculation with 160 degree water and PBW, then a 160 degree recir with pure water, which I tell myself is enough to keep my pump and threaded connections “clean enough.”

I'd like to be able to tell you that you should be fine but I can tell you from first hand experience that things find there way into the littlest places inside the pump. I do the same thing as you do with recirculating. Originally I recirculated with PBW and never took apart my pump. The first time I took it apart I was very surprised how dirty it was. Now I take it apart after every brew (besides the two threaded TC parts which I'm going to do tonight lol).

 

[morbster]

Great info, thanks. PBW is great when it can come into contact with everything. Those threaded connections and pump internals could certainly use some extra attention.

 

[h22lude]

Great info, thanks. PBW is great when it can come into contact with everything. Those threaded connections and pump internals could certainly use some extra attention.

I hate threads. I've probably spent over $300 on TC fittings and quick disconnects just to remove threads from my system. I still have three. Two on my pump and one on my mash recirculating arm. At some point I'll replace the pump head with https://www.brewershardware.com/sta...lover-compatible-flanges.html?category_id=386

 

[morbster]

Oh wow, that’s incredible. And incredibly expensive. I think I spent less than that on my chugger pump, so it’s hard to justify the cost of those TC fittings.

 

[h22lude]

Oh wow, that’s incredible. And incredibly expensive. I think I spent less than that on my chugger pump, so it’s hard to justify the cost of those TC fittings.

Yeah it is expensive to just remove threads from the pump but I figure I've already spent so much I might as well finish it

 

[processhead]

It makes sense to do CIP on plumbed systems like pumps, in line heaters, and associated valves and piping, especially if its on the hot side of your process.

Disassembly of your hot side plumbed system after every use is unnecessary in my opinion .

Immersion, CFC, and plate chillers really benefit from CIP practices if you can plumb the chiller into your pump/heater and recirculate hot cleaning solution through it. I also like to circulate boiling hot water or wort through my chiller prior to use on brew day as a last minute sanitizing practice.

On the cold side of the process (post-boil), I think cleanliness and sanitation really gets much more critical.

 

[FunkedOut]

I use these fittings on my chugger pump:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/nptswivelhexnut58barb.htm

Cheap, no tools needed, they seal perfectly and get undone every brew.
The threads themselves stay clean, as the o-ring seals at the face/end of the male fitting.

 

[h22lude]

It makes sense to do CIP on plumbed systems like pumps, in line heaters, and associated valves and piping, especially if its on the hot side of your process.

Disassembly of your hot side plumbed system after every use is unnecessary in my opinion .

Immersion, CFC, and plate chillers really benefit from CIP practices if you can plumb the chiller into your pump/heater and recirculate hot cleaning solution through it. I also like to circulate boiling hot water or wort through my chiller prior to use on brew day as a last minute sanitizing practice.

On the cold side of the process (post-boil), I think cleanliness and sanitation really gets much more critical.

This is why hot side cleaning is needed http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

 

[processhead]

This is why hot side cleaning is needed http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

I read the link and found it interesting, but it raised a couple of questions too. It seems that in this case the source of his infections were very likely caused by the grungy kettle valve. I don't think they mentioned if they did any follow up batches to confirm that the one good batch was not an outlier.
I wished they had shown how this particular ball valve was installed on the kettle. I found it curious that they said the valve barely got warm during the boil? Maybe it was piped so that the valve was physically separated from the kettle and it was not subjected to the same intense heat as the rest of the kettle?

On my electric boil kettle, the ball valve is mounted right on outlet of the kettle and I can't even touch my finger to it during the boil because it is intensely hot. If this persons valve really wasn't getting hot during the boil as he said, you might make the argument that the valve was not truly part of the hot side of the process. But that is just conjecture on my part since we didn't see what it looked like.

Still, of all the causal sources of beer infections among all home brewers out there, I have to suspect that boil kettle ball valves are a statistically insignificant source of infections.

I hope this was a permanent solution for this guys infections. Its always a good thing to understand your process and what/ how different things interact to affect your beer.

As a side note, part of my brew process is at the end of the boil, I run a half gallon or so of boiling hot wort through my CFC and tubing. I catch it in a pan and dump it back in the kettle and then repeat a second time. Only then do I turn on the cooling water and proceeding to run off into my fermenter.

 

[augiedoggy]

It makes sense to do CIP on plumbed systems like pumps, in line heaters, and associated valves and piping, especially if its on the hot side of your process.

Disassembly of your hot side plumbed system after every use is unnecessary in my opinion .

Immersion, CFC, and plate chillers really benefit from CIP practices if you can plumb the chiller into your pump/heater and recirculate hot cleaning solution through it. I also like to circulate boiling hot water or wort through my chiller prior to use on brew day as a last minute sanitizing practice.

On the cold side of the process (post-boil), I think cleanliness and sanitation really gets much more critical.

Ditto...

At home I only cip to clean my rims/manifold, pumps and plate chiller... everything else is easier and more practical to clean by hand. I do use pbw..
for my conicals I switched to butterfly valves because I got tired of disassembling and cleaning the ball valves..

Then I stopped using my homebrewing setup when I opened a brewpub... Now with a 3 barrel system we CIP all the kettles and tanks and I disassemble the pumps after running pbw to make sure they are clean and clean manually if needed. I use a riptide and larger sanitary pump for beer and wort as well as a smaller td5 pump with the threadless adapters from bobby soldered on which makes the head more sanitary. I really like the design of the riptide and larger sanitary pump for cleaning better.

 

[Brooothru]

I disassemble and clean the ball valves every time, which is why I'm trying to replace as many of them as possible with butterfly valves...
I CIP my pump and my RIMS tube but always remove the heating element from it to check for scorching afterwards. As it has a TC attachment that doesn't take more than a couple of minutes.

Best thing I ever did was replace ball valves with butterfly valves. Not cheap, but worth it.

Brooo Brother

 

[augiedoggy]

I read the link and found it interesting, but it raised a couple of questions too. It seems that in this case the source of his infections were very likely caused by the grungy kettle valve. I don't think they mentioned if they did any follow up batches to confirm that the one good batch was not an outlier.
I wished they had shown how this particular ball valve was installed on the kettle. I found it curious that they said the valve barely got warm during the boil? Maybe it was piped so that the valve was physically separated from the kettle and it was not subjected to the same intense heat as the rest of the kettle?

On my electric boil kettle, the ball valve is mounted right on outlet of the kettle and I can't even touch my finger to it during the boil because it is intensely hot. If this persons valve really wasn't getting hot during the boil as he said, you might make the argument that the valve was not truly part of the hot side of the process. But that is just conjecture on my part since we didn't see what it looked like.

Still, of all the causal sources of beer infections among all home brewers out there, I have to suspect that boil kettle ball valves are a statistically insignificant source of infections.

I hope this was a permanent solution for this guys infections. Its always a good thing to understand your process and what/ how different things interact to affect your beer.

As a side note, part of my brew process is at the end of the boil, I run a half gallon or so of boiling hot wort through my CFC and tubing. I catch it in a pan and dump it back in the kettle and then repeat a second time. Only then do I turn on the cooling water and proceeding to run off into my fermenter.

Again ditto.. same process with the hot water at the end of the brewing process as well.

5 years of this and no infections...
on the flip side I hear about people removing all the fittings including weldless fitting and sanitizing them between brew sessions and I just cant help but think its either lack of understanding or OCD behind it... We are making beer out of grain and hops that are far from sanitary afterall... its the boil that sanitizes.

I'm not saying theres anything wrong with checking and cleaning valves and pumps... just that there are ways to clean them fairly well without constant disassembly each brew session.

 

[TallDan]

I hate threads. I've probably spent over $300 on TC fittings and quick disconnects just to remove threads from my system. I still have three. Two on my pump and one on my mash recirculating arm. At some point I'll replace the pump head with https://www.brewershardware.com/sta...lover-compatible-flanges.html?category_id=386

Pretty sure you could also send your pump head to Bobby and have him do it:
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LaborPumpTC&CartID=8
I was thinking I was going to do that, but am now thinking more along the lines of just ordering a new riptide from him with the TC ports soldered on. He also sells the flanges if you want to do the silver soldering yourself.

 

[augiedoggy]

Pretty sure you could also send your pump head to Bobby and have him do it:
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LaborPumpTC&CartID=8
I was thinking I was going to do that, but am now thinking more along the lines of just ordering a new riptide from him with the TC ports soldered on. He also sells the flanges if you want to do the silver soldering yourself.

I have had to resolder mine a couple times now myself... That said I likely didnt have enough solder in the joint since I could not see any in the the area on the other side.

 

[Brooothru]

I hate threads. I've probably spent over $300 on TC fittings and quick disconnects just to remove threads from my system. I still have three. Two on my pump and one on my mash recirculating arm. At some point I'll replace the pump head with https://www.brewershardware.com/sta...lover-compatible-flanges.html?category_id=386

Oh, GREAT!!! Now you've done it. Just when I thought I was through with 'upgrades' for a little while. How am I gonna' explain THIS one to SWMBO when the Visa bill comes in? Are you sure it'll make my beers better than the polysophone head with Blichmann threaded disconnects I use to transfer from kettle to fermenter?

"But Mommy, I want it. I need it. Please, Mommy, please, please, PLEASE?"

Brooo Brother

 

[Vale71]

on the flip side I hear about people removing all the fittings including weldless fitting and sanitizing them between brew sessions and I just cant help but think its either lack of understanding or OCD behind it... We are making beer out of grain and hops that are far from sanitary afterall... its the boil that sanitizes.

Sanitation is not only about infections. Crud buildup will spoil and the smells and taste spoliage produces are far from appealing for most people. When I took a one-year hiatus from homebrewing I neglected disassembling and cleaning the ball valves on my kettles and the smell when I finally disassembled them a year later was quite disgusting...

 

[Brooothru]

This is why hot side cleaning is needed http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

Even though I generally take an askance view of most things 'Brulosophy', I really thought this was a good article. Man, that ball valve almost made me puke. After last summer's brew season and competitions, I went through a similar process of trying to discover why my beers were suddenly not turning out the way they had always been before. I didn't brew at all from last August until six weeks ago after I had completely disassembled, cleaned, revamped and retooled my equipment as well as processes and procedures from crushing grain to pulling the tap handle on the kegerator. I also scrubbed and cleaned (with Clorox) the concrete walls and floor of my brew area to eliminate any possible nasties as best I could within 'reasonable' limits.

It's been a painful (and expensive) journey. So how's it going after all that effort and $$$? Happy to say, now that the first of the beers are conditioned and pouring, I'm very pleased with the results, as have been some of my best friends and critics who never are afraid to voice their opinions, both positive and negative. Not sure where I made a wrong turn. Maybe I just got a little lax or lazy with attention to detail, but now I definitely feel back in the game. Hopefully the judges will agree.

Brooo Brother

 

[h22lude]

Pretty sure you could also send your pump head to Bobby and have him do it:
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LaborPumpTC&CartID=8
I was thinking I was going to do that, but am now thinking more along the lines of just ordering a new riptide from him with the TC ports soldered on. He also sells the flanges if you want to do the silver soldering yourself.

My pump head is poly so I dont think I have this option.

 

[h22lude]

Even though I generally take an askance view of most things 'Brulosophy', I really thought this was a good article. Man, that ball valve almost made me puke. After last summer's brew season and competitions, I went through a similar process of trying to discover why my beers were suddenly not turning out the way they had always been before. I didn't brew at all from last August until six weeks ago after I had completely disassembled, cleaned, revamped and retooled my equipment as well as processes and procedures from crushing grain to pulling the tap handle on the kegerator. I also scrubbed and cleaned (with Clorox) the concrete walls and floor of my brew area to eliminate any possible nasties as best I could within 'reasonable' limits.

It's been a painful (and expensive) journey. So how's it going after all that effort and $$$? Happy to say, now that the first of the beers are conditioned and pouring, I'm very pleased with the results, as have been some of my best friends and critics who never are afraid to voice their opinions, both positive and negative. Not sure where I made a wrong turn. Maybe I just got a little lax or lazy with attention to detail, but now I definitely feel back in the game. Hopefully the judges will agree.

Brooo Brother

I agree. I like reading some of their stuff but I find people take their results as gospel. I take them as very anecdotal. They do say the results shouldn't be taken too seriously so it isnt necessarily their fault.

Anyway, I went through a similar thing about 2 years ago. My beers were all tasting the same and all had an odd off flavor that I could never describe well. I tried everything just like you did. The last thing I tried was low oxygen. I went all in. My first low oxygen batch was a pilsner that won mini best of show at national comp. Not sure which area benefited from low oxygen but I was happy to finally fix the issue after many ruined batches and money spent.

 

[Brooothru]

LoDO was one of the things I incorporated as well. I boil and quick chill the mash water as well as dose it with NaMeta to scavenge O2. All transfers, except the first one from boil kettle to fermenter, are done under positive CO2 pressure with TC fittings. Even when I dump trub, take periodic samples or harvest yeast I purge with a CO2 burst. I have krausened each of the four batches I've done since my overhaul, introducing a steeped hop tea into the speise before pitching the second yeast charge. The speise ferments with the hop tea and yeast in a mini keg with a spunding valve until it reaches high krausen (that way I get a biotransformation of the hop oils), and then transfer the contents of the mini keg and beer from the conical fermenter into a krausening keg.

After the krausen has done its work of completing the fermentation, carbonating itself, and then cleaning up any mess it's left behind I cold crash it and pressure transfer to a serving keg. The only thing left then is to fill my glass.

What I've noticed is that it adds about an hour or more to an already long brew day by bring the strike water to a boil, then chilling, before mashing in. Previously I'd just fill the kettle with water, mash in at 95F and raise to mash temperature for an hour. Now I'm doing step mashes (actually a modified Hochkurz profile) with very brief rests for Beta glucans and proteinase (5-10 minutes), a long Beta amylase rest for 60 minutes @ 145F and Alpha amylase rest for 20 minutes 158F, before mashing out. I've noticed a small but not insignificant rise in mash efficiency, but noticeably increased yield as well as clarity in the wort after the boil, even though I ditched the hop spider in favor of letting the hops 'go commando' in the boil.

I'm also seeing less trub when I dump (usually Day 2 of fermentation), little or no trub when I transfer to 'secondary' (krausening keg) and virtually trub-free yeast when I harvest. Over and above just a better quality of finished beer, I'm hoping that the combination of LoDO, krausening and pressurized transfers will extend the 'freshness' and keg life of my beers, especially highly hopped IPAs. I'm traveling to the Pacific Northwest next month and hope to visit with some hop growers out there and pick their brains for ideas about extending hop flavors and aromas over time.

The quest for beer nirvana never ends.

Brooo Brother

 

[h22lude]

I do a lot of the same. Just brewed my first batch in almost a year after moving twice. Made a few errors and still need to get my brew room the way I want it but it went well. I did miss the opportunity to spund though. I usually transfer with 1°Bx left but there was .5°Bx. Don't think it will fully carb with that little sugar left so unfortunately will probably have to carb the rest with CO2. Should still be really good though

 

[augiedoggy]

Sanitation is not only about infections. Crud buildup will spoil and the smells and taste spoliage produces are far from appealing for most people. When I took a one-year hiatus from homebrewing I neglected disassembling and cleaning the ball valves on my kettles and the smell when I finally disassembled them a year later was quite disgusting...

Ok my interpritation is when we are talking about CIP and wiping kettles out we are talking about eliminating that "crud". I do periodically take my ball valves apart to inspect and I found that my process of actuating the ballvalve open and close while pushing pbw and water does in fact do an adequate job of keeping them clean on the hot side. also crud doesnt ever get behind the seals in my weldless fittings, if it did that would mean the seals arent working, therefore constantly dissassembling this stuff is unnecessary and can very likely cause problems where there wasnt one. (which is one reason I believe some people have such bad opinions of weldless fittings.)

My pumps are hardplumbed into my hard lines. some only ever see hot water but those that see wort get periodically taken apart at home and inspected. Again if there was cause for concern found when doing this I would have changed my process. a microbrewery doesnt not disasseble everything between brew sessions. They run various caustics and cleaners to CIP. As long as I clean my system immediately after use I find it cleans up rather easily. At the brewpub this is also true, even though it makes a much longer brewday we have learned there are somethings we just dont wait on. Other things like cleaning kegs we make an afternoon or evening out of.

Ive spoken to many micro and nano brewery brewers and owners over the years and some of you would be surprised of what some of them do and dont do and what some get away with without concern of it effecting the beer. I have had some tell me they only rinse thier sanke kegs between fills and some dont even do that if they are refilling with the same beer.. Others have a way more complex cleaning process.. In the end they do what works for them and they still sell thier beer.. even in belgium where beer is fermenting in dusty attics and circulated through roof top gutters to make sours... Again there are opinions and assumptions here that vary from one extreme to the other with no or little data to base them on and this can lead to people getting carried away in either direction.

 

[Qhrumphf]

a microbrewery doesnt not disasseble everything between brew sessions. They run various caustics and cleaners to CIP.

But they are, or at least should be, using sanitary fittings that can be CIP'd with 100% contact.

In a professional setting I would never put a ball valve anywhere in direct contact with product. Water, sure. Gas, sure. But strong preference for not hot side (my home system does have hot side ball valves that I break down and clean, I don't use it enough to justify upgrading) and hard line in the sand cold side. The homebrew conicals with ball valves make me cringe.

 

[augiedoggy]

But they are, or at least should be, using sanitary fittings that can be CIP'd with 100% contact.

In a professional setting I would never put a ball valve anywhere in direct contact with product. Water, sure. Gas, sure. But strong preference for not hot side (my home system does have hot side ball valves that I break down and clean, I don't use it enough to justify upgrading) and hard line in the sand cold side. The homebrew conicals with ball valves make me cringe.

They come apart easily enough to be cleaned with a single wrench... that said I switched my conical valves out for butterfly valves.

 

[processhead]

Sanitation is not only about infections. Crud buildup will spoil and the smells and taste spoliage produces are far from appealing for most people. When I took a one-year hiatus from homebrewing I neglected disassembling and cleaning the ball valves on my kettles and the smell when I finally disassembled them a year later was quite disgusting...

Infections and smelly crud build up are both caused by bacterial growing where you don't want it, and the solution is the same for both, mechanical cleaning and sanitizing. In some cases, heat in your hot side processes takes care of the sanitizing side of the problem.