Cider Rescue

[azsixshooter]

I started 5 gallons of hard cider this fall using non-pastuerized, no-preservative apple cider from the local cider mills here in Michigan. I used a 5 part cider additive pack 24 hours before I added the yeast. After the yeast got going I opened the ale pale once to add more apple juice concentrate and brown sugar and a second time to add yeast nutrients. After a week in primary fermentation I racked it off to a clean carboy and have let it sit for almost 5 weeks now.

I recently siphoned off a 1/2 gallon that I was planning to give my uncle. I expected to rack the rest to bottles and try to back-carb and sweeten them and then follow the sticky on stove-top heat pastuerizing to finish them off and then just let the bulk of the batch sit in the bottles for awhile to smooth/mellow.

I tasted a glass of this cider and it's pretty horrible. Very strong yeast taste that stuck in my mouth until I brushed my teeth the next morning. There's about a 1/2" of sediment in the bottom of the secondary fermenter.

Now I'm confused as to what I should do. I have a 5 gallon carboy, but there's only about 4 1/2 gallons of cider in it now so there's a lot of room for oxygen (I don't know anything about oxidation but I'm under the impression that it is preferable to have your secondary fermenter pretty much filled for best results/least oxidation). I've got the 1/2 gallon still in the fridge, but the day after I had a glass of it I took a swig right off the bottle to re-confirm that it was actually as bad as I remembered it being.

I was thinking to add the 1/2 gallon back into the main batch, rack it to my ale pale, clean and sanitize the carboy and then rack it back into there for an extended stay, like at least 2 or 3 months to get rid of the nasty yeast flavor. My problem is that since I drank right off the 1/2 gallon bottle is the cider in there potentially infected with bacteria from my mouth? I don't want to put it back in the main batch and end up with a failure, but I'm afraid if I don't fill up that excess space in the 5 gallon carboy oxidation might spoil my main batch.

The most obvious thing in my mind is to buy some smaller bottles, rack the main batch into them and then let them sit for a long time to hopefully mellow. But I have a major financial meltdown going on this month and I don't think I could even afford a 3 gallon carboy.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I was thinking about just dumping another 1/2 gallon of fresh cider or apple juice into the main batch, let it sit for another week and then rack it back to the ale pale, clean out the carboy and rack back to that for another "secondary" fermentation and then if necessary rack to the ale pail and back into the clean/sanitized carboy for a few months to mellow before I back-carb/sweeten and bottle.

Thanks a lot for any help, this is my first attempt at making anything alcholic and I'd hate to mess it up and lose the batch. I love cider and really would like something palatable at least!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

"Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I was thinking about just dumping another 1/2 gallon of fresh cider or apple juice into the main batch, let it sit for another week and then rack it back to the ale pale, clean out the carboy and rack back to that for another "secondary" fermentation and then if necessary rack to the ale pail and back into the clean/sanitized carboy for a few months to mellow before I back-carb/sweeten and bottle."

Yup, do this. Not the end of the world, but I know it can seem that way! As long as its only a yeasty taste that you have and not a baterial infection then you should be fine.

 

[azsixshooter]

Thanks!

Is there any sure way to tell if it's infected or not? I always tried to be extremely careful and used 1-step to sanitize everything that came into contact with the cider or the vessel it is in.

 

[ericbw]

Thanks!

Is there any sure way to tell if it's infected or not? I always tried to be extremely careful and used 1-step to sanitize everything that came into contact with the cider or the vessel it is in.

If it tasted like yeast and tasted bad, it's probably not infected.

It's probably very dry, which can taste "horrible" if you're expecting sweet cider. I would not pour the growler you drank from back in, but let the rest age and settle.

Get a second opinion on the taste of the growler.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Thanks!

Is there any sure way to tell if it's infected or not? I always tried to be extremely careful and used 1-step to sanitize everything that came into contact with the cider or the vessel it is in.

Taste and smell are the keys. You can tell if a bacterial infection has occurred if you get sweaty warhorse like barnyard like flavors. Oddly sweet or candy like flavors can also be a sign of infection. Using a sanitizer was the best way to go. It sounds like you simply have more yeast than you expected.

 

[azsixshooter]

I finally got a hold of some dispensible cash so I'm going to hit the cider mill tomorrow for another gallon or 2. I'm going to pour that into a freshly sanitized ale pale, then rack the hard cider I have from my carboy into the ale pale too. Let it ferment however much it wants to in there for about 7 days then rack it back into a freshly washed/sanitized carboy and restart the secondary fermentation process.

Being my first batch ever I was excited to have something good after 5 weeks of secondary fermenting. Looks like this particular run is going to need more time than that. Only reason I was rushing it was that I had a yearly hunting trip this coming weekend and I was hoping to bring a nice gallon of cider to give my uncle since he lets me hunt his farm with him.

I guess you live and learn! I shouldn't have siphoned so much cider off so early. My original plan was to grab this 1/2 gallon and then rack the rest off into 1 liter bottles. I was gonna let them mellow for a while and then back-carb/sweeten them. Problem now is I can't afford the $50 for a dozen 1 liter clamp cap bottles.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

I think you are going about this the smart way. It is better to have a great tasting cider a few months from now then one that makes you wrinkle your nose because you drink you get to soon. Just remember that you can give your uncle some cider for Christmas perhaps although it sounds like your yeast are not dropping out very quickly so that maybe a springtime present for him!

 

[Yooper]

If you've got 1/2 of sediment in the carboy, rack to another carboy! The "yeasty taste" is coming from the decaying/dying yeast in the carboy.

Rack to a new vessel whenever you have lees 1/4" thick or more, or any lees at all after 60 days.

Top up, with a finished cider, or rack to a smaller vessel, if you have racking losses (and you will).

If you don't have another carboy, rack to a sanitized bucket, and then rack it back to the carboy. Top up with your fresh cider. These are important things- racking and topping up, and shouldn't be skipped.

From now on, you're all set but I don't know if you can "erase" the bad flavor from all those weeks on the lees.

 

[azsixshooter]

Yooper- you are spot-on! I topped it up with some fresh cider and allowed 2 weeks for it to ferment away.

Just tonight I racked it into a clean/sanitized ale-pail and washed/sterilized the carboy. Then I racked it back to the carboy. I checked the sg and it was sitting right at 1.000. I tasted a little bit of it and it tasted great....sour apple flavor with no nasty yeast smell or taste.

It's in the carboy now and I have no problem leaving it in there for another month or two (or three) if that's what it will take to make a really tasty cider.

The problem I'm thinking I have now is the drop in content due to slight racking losses. Here's the current level in the carboy:

I'm afraid that level might be too low and exposing too much cider surface area to oxidation. Is this a valid concern? If so, can I add a growler of local hard cider (Sweet William from Spicer's Orchard in Fenton, MI) or will I need to make some more "must" to top off with?

Any help is really appreciated! After tasting a good product tonight a new brewer has been born!

 

[azsixshooter]

Now that I think about it, I could probably just top this little bit off with regular cider or even apple juice since there wouldn't be a whole lot of fuel for the yeast. I was just thinking to use some hard cider to avoid getting more lees in this carboy so it can mellow out for a couple of months and get nice and clear. When I siphoned some into a glass it had pretty good clarity but it's hard to tell from this picture.

 

[ericbw]

Now that I think about it, I could probably just top this little bit off with regular cider or even apple juice since there wouldn't be a whole lot of fuel for the yeast. I was just thinking to use some hard cider to avoid getting more lees in this carboy so it can mellow out for a couple of months and get nice and clear. When I siphoned some into a glass it had pretty good clarity but it's hard to tell from this picture.

Each time you add sugar (fresh cider), you feed the yeast and create more lees. You're racking to get away from the lees, so don't create more. Topping with hard cider is a better choice ifvyou must.

Rack, seal with an airlock, and forget about it for a while. A smaller carboy would help, but you have to work with what you have.

Adding campden at racking will also help to prevent oxidation.

 

[HopSong]

I'm in a similar boat. I should have left well enough alone.. sort of. What I should have done is to rack my cider into two 1g jugs and messed with them individually. I mentioned in a different post that I was at 1.010 sg. Well, I'm now at 1.002..It MIGHT get below that. But, what I did was to siphon out 1 liter and added a small amount of Bitter Apple extract.. that stuff is VERY concentrated... Well, I added too much (2ml/liter).. added a bit of Balanced Acid too.. along with some Stevia. I'm too bitter in the test.. so, I cut back on it in the large batch… but, it might still be too bitter.

I think what I'll do is to boil up some water to sanitize it and add a can of frozen apple concentrate to sweeten it back up.. and let it carb just a bit.. then pasteurize. That will be my first batch.. Now I know better. Turned out to be 7.5%.. so I think I can get away with diluting a bit with the AJ. Should cut down on the bitterness.. add some sweetness and a tad of carbonation. Good project for tomorrow. Guess I learned a bit from this first iteration..

 

[azsixshooter]

I was going to add some Angry Orchard "Sinful" to top it up, but I saw that there were sulfites in it. I was thinking I want to be able to sweeten/back-carb with some corn sugar at some point so I didn't want to get the sulfites in there and kill off the yeast. I just topped it with some organic apple juice for now.

I'm at a loss as to what I should do at this point. I didn't anticipate the racking losses and now I'm not sure what the best course of action is. Maybe I should just start drinking it all!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Typically I use an inert gas to 'top off' my carboy. If you have co2 handy it works. I don't, so I use a can of argon gas and spray it in to displace the air. They sell it at your lhbs.

 

[azsixshooter]

That's really cool, I didn't know they sold gas like that. I can see how that would work.

Since I added the apple juice to top it off it's been bubbling a little bit and there are still about 1/4" or so of lees already at the bottom. So I'm planning to rack it again to the ale pail and then back to a clean carboy. This time I'll have to be more careful not to suck up any lees and when I rack it I'll be ready to anticipate racking losses either by adding gas or adding finished cider and accept that I won't be able to back-carb it (which I don't think is so bad, it was just my original plan).

Thanks again for the great advice!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

My pleasure. Hope it comes out great!