Cider Making - Wild Fermenting

[rowan57]

Hi All.

I like my cider dry as a bone and 'dirty', i.e. proper scrumpy farmhouse cider. My favourite cider is actually French farmhouse, but I can only get it once a year.

I assume this is achieved through wild fermenting?

I have an opportunity in a week or so's time, to collect as much unpasteurised cider straight from the press as I want. I am thinking 2x5 gallon batches, which will cost me around £50 ($80) which seems reasonable.

I would like to wild ferment one batch and yeast the other, which yeast will come closest to my desired cider I suppose is the question? I have seen S-04 mentioned a lot.

I have also never wild fermented, but am relatively happy to take the risk. Again, thoughts welcome here.

I CANNOT STAND sweet ciders.

 

[MarkKF]

Bone dry cider? Champagne Pasteur or EC-1118 will do it. But u will lose flavor. I pay $3-4 per gal. for bulk cider from the press.


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[porterpounder]

Try a French Saison yeast. Not as finicky as Belgian strains and may give you some of that Farmhouse character. Will also ferment bone-dry.

 

[rowan57]

Bone dry cider? Champagne Pasteur or EC-1118 will do it. But u will lose flavor. I pay $3-4 per gal. for bulk cider from the press.


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Not really what I'm looking for but thank you! I am making a 5 gal batch of Apfelwein, but want my cider more funky.

There are very very very few orchards left in the UK where you can get fresh pressed cider. You can obviously do it yourself, but I don't have the kit or the apples. This orchard sells its cider bottled and pasteurised for £2.20 for 750ml, so I am getting a steal at £1/L, painfully expensive as that is!

 

[rowan57]

Try a French Saison yeast. Not as finicky as Belgian strains and may give you some of that Farmhouse character. Will also ferment bone-dry.

What do you think about WLP670 American Farmhouse w/Brett? I really like the character of Brett in Orval, but have never brewed with it.

 

[porterpounder]

That would be great. Love that strain.

 

[rowan57]

Good! Any other input on how to make a super funky scrumpy farmhouse cider?

 

[graycobra]

http://www.funkfactorygeuzeria.com/2013/06/cider-fermentation-panel-bottling.html?m=1

Pretty good read on Brett strains in cider

 

[madscientist451]

$8 a gallon seems pretty steep to me, but perhaps it depends what apples they are using. Is this a blend of real cider apples?
The locals don't even do cider here anymore, too many government regulations. It all comes from a sanitary pasteurizing plant 100 miles away and sells for $5.50 a gallon.
I can press my own using "seconds" or apples gathered from the ground at some orchards for about $2 a gallon, but these aren't real cider apples, I choose a mixture of tart and sweet and do the best I can.
So ask the orchard what you are getting for $8/gallon, if you can spare the cash, I'd go for it, you'll still come out ahead making your own.
I'd get some gallon jugs and do some tests: A wild yeast ferment, maybe wild yeast, then halted with campden tablets and introduce a different yeast. The WL english cider yeast is pretty good, or some of the saison blends mentioned above.

 

[rowan57]

http://www.funkfactorygeuzeria.com/2013/06/cider-fermentation-panel-bottling.html?m=1

Pretty good read on Brett strains in cider

Thanks for that, good link!

 

[rowan57]

$8 a gallon seems pretty steep to me, but perhaps it depends what apples they are using. Is this a blend of real cider apples?
The locals don't even do cider here anymore, too many government regulations. It all comes from a sanitary pasteurizing plant 100 miles away and sells for $5.50 a gallon.
I can press my own using "seconds" or apples gathered from the ground at some orchards for about $2 a gallon, but these aren't real cider apples, I choose a mixture of tart and sweet and do the best I can.
So ask the orchard what you are getting for $8/gallon, if you can spare the cash, I'd go for it, you'll still come out ahead making your own.
I'd get some gallon jugs and do some tests: A wild yeast ferment, maybe wild yeast, then halted with campden tablets and introduce a different yeast. The WL english cider yeast is pretty good, or some of the saison blends mentioned above.

It sucks when gooberment regulations get in the way of JUICE!

This would be whatever they are pressing I assume - they grow a lot of old english varieties of apple but no it wouldnt be specific cider mixes. This is the only orchard for probably 60 miles who will let me collect off the press, so its a goer!

I have about a billion (ok read 25 or so) 1 gallon carboys, so I will certainly wild ferment lets say 2 gallons.

I keep going round in circles on this in my mind, but at the moment I think I will do 4 x 3 Gallon batches as follows;

Safale S-04
WLP 670 American Farmhouse Blend
Wyeast 3711 French Saison
Wyeast 5112 Bret B

I feel like this should give me a nice mix of 'drink now' cider and some to wait on / age, I don't drink a great deal of Cider, beer is my go to so this batch should keep me going until next year.

I need to order new carboys and the yeast tomorrow in order to be sure they will arrive in time, so any input before I push the button appreciated.

 

[MarkKF]

I have a few gallon jugs I've used for test batches in the past. I just bought a 2 gal. bucket to try a wild fermentation. Gonna start with a gal. of my usual fresh pressed cider than add some pick your own apples I core and chop but don't wash. Well this is how my bucket arrived in the mail...


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[phug]

Sad sad bucket.


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[Qhrumphf]

A cider producer out in rural MD apparently hooked my LHBS up with a bunch of unpasteurized stuff. I've got mine sitting to do its own thing. This'll be my first time trying a wild fermented cider. From what my LHBS said, it's a blend of Bulmer's Norman, Redfields and crab apples. Not much of a cider or apple guy, so I'm not sure what that means exactly, but it's tasty before fermentation, that's for sure.

Any suggestions or tips?

 

[rowan57]

I went backward and forward on it but just ordered the new glass I need! 2 x 6 Gal Glass Carboys, 4 x 3 Gal Glass Carboys. Now to order the yeast, this is turning into an expensive evening.

 

[rowan57]

So, having looked at yeast a slight change of plan, the following should be arriving in the next day or two;

WLP670 - American Farmhouse Blend w/Brett
WLP650 - Brett Brux
Yeast Bay - Amalgamation Brett Blend
Yeast Bay - Wallonian Farmhouse
Yeast Bay - Melange
Safale S-04

Now to decide how many gallons to do of each Thoughts welcome here!

 

[youreanimpulse]

Subbed and +1 for WLP670. That is a great blend that got me my current favorite sipper, a Citra Brett Saison dry hopped with Galaxy. Very nice profile. I'll be pitching that saved yeast in my next cider, so we may be on a similar timeline.

 

[rowan57]

Well I had a few shipping notifications today! The Glass (HBS 1) & Yeast (HBS 2) will arrive tomorrow for sure, i ordered the Carboy Bungs and a few other bits from another HBS (HBS 3) and they are being sent standard mail so tomorrow or Thursday.

HBS 2 had the decency to ring me and let me know there was a mess up with their stock and they didn't have WLP 650 in stock, so I could have a refund or they would backship it for me but not until next Wednesday. I did manage to source it from HBS 3 but thanked HBS 2 for letting me know and will for sure be using them again!

Having said that, would have been nice to get everything all from one store rather than 3! ha!

I will be really interested to compare WLP670 & Wallonian, both get rave reviews as far as I can tell. The Melange was an impulse buy, and will be a one gallon trial I think.

 

[rowan57]

Subbed and +1 for WLP670. That is a great blend that got me my current favorite sipper, a Citra Brett Saison dry hopped with Galaxy. Very nice profile. I'll be pitching that saved yeast in my next cider, so we may be on a similar timeline.

Sounds good, and yes all going well I will be pitching next Tuesday.

 

[WVMJ]

We pay 10$ gallon for real cidermakers cider around here, it has the proper mix of bitters and sweets and sharps, well worth it to get real cidermaking cider made professionally. Would you have a possible problem of Brett getting into other batches of wine or cider you didnt want it in forever once you brought it into your fermentarium? If you really want funky spread some apples on the ground for a week and use them WVMJ

 

[rowan57]

It would be nice, I don't really have good access to true cider makers unfortunately!

On the Brett issue, maybe, I don't mind taking the risk really.

Giggity:






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[rowan57]

Why must work **** with real life? I had a day off Monday to go to the cider farm, but I now have a meeting I can't get out of! They only press on a Monday so it will now need to be the following Monday!

 

[datcv]

Last year, I made cider from apples that I pressed myself for the first time. It was mostly Fuji apples, but I also threw in a few small bags of other types such as York, Stayman, and granny Smith. I also did not know which yeast to use and there is a lot of different information out there on the Internet (I would assume because different people like different styles of cider). So I decided to do a test with red star Pasteur champagne yeast for half of my cider, and Saffale 04 yEast for the other half.

I also like my cider pretty dry, and in the end I really liked the champagne yeast cider better. It had a much cleaner apple flavor than the other one. The Ale yEast had a more bready yeasty beer like taste.

 

[phug]

Why must work **** with real life? I had a day off Monday to go to the cider farm, but I now have a meeting I can't get out of! They only press on a Monday so it will now need to be the following Monday!

I had a similar problem, the solution that I worked out with the cidery/orchard was to place an order with them, and have them put it in a bucket, and place it in their walk in freezer until I could pick it up a week and a half later.

 

[rowan57]

Well, I may be tempting fate but it looks like this may happen on Monday. I am meant to have the full day off but it now looks like a half day as a couple of my colleagues are also off.

Nevermind, I can work with a half day!

Plan as it stands;

Fill 1 x 23L Carboy direct from press.
Fill 1 x 60L Blue Food Grade Barrel from press.

Rack from the 60L into 11L Carboys + however many 1 gal carboys I get out of it.

Treat all apart from 1 Gal Carboys with Sodium Meta or Potassium Meta. One Gal carboys will be left to wild ferment.

4 x 11L Carboys:
Yeast Bay Amalagamation
Yeast Bay Melange
WLP670 Farm House
WLP650 Brett Brux

1 x 23L Carboy

Wallonian Farmhouse

2? x 1 Gallon Carboys

Wild Ferment.

This opportunity comes but once a year, may as well make the most of it!

 

[rowan57]

Yay so everything racked, yeasts to be pitched tomorrow evening.


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[BGBC]

Looking good! I've got a gallon of wild fermenting cider going (unpasteurized juice of ginger gold w/ gold and red delicious too).

Also a gallon+ of the same going as a cyser with 71B added too (did not treat it).

 

[rowan57]

Thanks! Yours sound good. I think this is Golden Delicious, so very sweet and perhaps not my first choice but very interested to see how it works with the Brett. I may have to use one of the one gallons for topping off, I have left a good amount of headspace in the 3gal and 5gal carboys to allow for a vigorous ferment.


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[rowan57]

Ok so yeast(s) pitched. I took an OG reading of 1.040, which if the cider ferments to 1.000 would give me 5.25% abc and if to 0.990 it would give 6.56% (conversion according to brewersfriend and verified in brew toad). The OG seems a bit low compared to that I have seen quoted on the forum for cider (1.055?) but I am happy with the potential ABV.

 

[rowan57]

Note to self; Next time count how many airlocks and rubber carboy caps you need properly rather than guessing.

 

[BGBC]

Interesting. It does seem low for the ciders/juices I've worked with in the past. All have been around 1.055 +/- 0.002.

My wild cider is still chugging along after 2+ weeks (took 3+ days for the first bubbles to appear) and I'm getting a lot of the sulfuric/rhino fart smells coming out of the airlock. Hoping that calms down and doesn't impact the final product.

 

[rowan57]

Thanks BGBC, I thought it a little odd too but it is what it is I suppose

My wild ferment 1 gallon carboys are showing more signs of life that the yeasted 3 and 5 gallon carboys! I gave the carboys a good shake tonight to help oxygenate the must but will leave them alone now - the house is relatively cool so it may take some time to get going.


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[CorporateHippie]

Icollected a good amount of apples to press this harvest season. I made a 5 gal batch of Graft, a 5 gal batch of cider with WLP001, set aside several gallons which I boiled and will serve as NA hot cider during the holidays...however.... I also had a 3 gal batch in my fermentation chamber in a clean carboy with an airlock on it. I was waiting to use it for an apple/raz cider once the regular cider was done. Before I had the chance, it had a krausen on it. I was like "Wait, what just happened here?" So I just went with it. Bottled it a month ago and will have the first taste later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[rowan57]

Let us know how it tastes!

We have fermentation (in all carboys), not vigorous but certainly there. As stated the house is quite cool at the moment, so low and slow it goes;

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1416507089.082805.jpg




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[CorporateHippie]

All right...first wild cider was opened last night. I held it softly but still got an explosion of carbonation when the top was popped. (should have known from other sour beers.) Nose was very appley with a hint of tartness but the flavor....WOW. It was so tart and sour, but in a good way. I had my wife taste it, who loves my regular ciders, and she said that she wanted more "sour apple cider". I bottle conditioned and will harvest the dregs to build a starter and attempt to recreate this flavor with store bought juice.

 

[rowan57]

All right...first wild cider was opened last night. I held it softly but still got an explosion of carbonation when the top was popped. (should have known from other sour beers.) Nose was very appley with a hint of tartness but the flavor....WOW. It was so tart and sour, but in a good way. I had my wife taste it, who loves my regular ciders, and she said that she wanted more "sour apple cider". I bottle conditioned and will harvest the dregs to build a starter and attempt to recreate this flavor with store bought juice.

Sounds awesome! Interesting idea to try and harvest the dregs, will be very interested to see the results of that one! Also good that the wife liked it, I think people are either genetically predisposed to sour flavours or not.

There was actually a short segment on TV here the other day about and old cider producer, most of his juice now goes to commercial cideries but he keeps some back, sticks it in a barrel and let's it go. Upto a month for first signs of fermentation (looked like said barrel was stored in an open barn outside). I struggle for space in my house, but if I can figure out a way to do a barrel I may well do!


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[rowan57]

The wild cider is giving the yeasted ciders a good run for their money;

http://youtu.be/HqG6u7pat-Y


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[rowan57]

Bit of an update, both the Brett Brux and Wallonian Farmhouse have developed pellices (photo of Brett Brux below):

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420221177.906641.jpg

I have no real concept of how long to leave these ciders before bottling - I am in no rush. Any input on this aspect appreciated.


I am also vaguely wondering if when the cider finishes, I could rack a Belgian Golden Strong onto the trub? Sloooowly building my AG kit so brewing say 12 gallons of BGS might be within capacity soon.

 

[CorporateHippie]

Bit of an update, both the Brett Brux and Wallonian Farmhouse have developed pellices (photo of Brett Brux below):

View attachment 246160

I have no real concept of how long to leave these ciders before bottling - I am in no rush. Any input on this aspect appreciated.


I am also vaguely wondering if when the cider finishes, I could rack a Belgian Golden Strong onto the trub? Sloooowly building my AG kit so brewing say 12 gallons of BGS might be within capacity soon.

Have you snuck a taste yet? with an all Brett B. fermentation that puppy may be well down to where it is going to get. I would guess around 1.005ish. I would love to hear your tasting notes. I ALWAYS have Wyeast Brett. B. on hand but have not tried it in cider yet. I will wait to hear what you say and I may just pitch some into 3-1/2 gallons of store bought apple juice this next weekend.

On a side note, going back to our conversation a month or two ago....I was able to harvest the dregs from my wild yeast cider. I built them up in a starter and they were pitched into a 1 gallon jug of apple juice back on 12/17. They are starting to flocc out pretty good now and I am happy to see a decent layer of trub at the bottom. I am excited to see what flavor profile this clean apple juice gets from the wild yeast because I would love to try it next in a batch of golden ale and go from there.

 

[rowan57]

Have you snuck a taste yet? with an all Brett B. fermentation that puppy may be well down to where it is going to get. I would guess around 1.005ish. I would love to hear your tasting notes. I ALWAYS have Wyeast Brett. B. on hand but have not tried it in cider yet. I will wait to hear what you say and I may just pitch some into 3-1/2 gallons of store bought apple juice this next weekend.

On a side note, going back to our conversation a month or two ago....I was able to harvest the dregs from my wild yeast cider. I built them up in a starter and they were pitched into a 1 gallon jug of apple juice back on 12/17. They are starting to flocc out pretty good now and I am happy to see a decent layer of trub at the bottom. I am excited to see what flavor profile this clean apple juice gets from the wild yeast because I would love to try it next in a batch of golden ale and go from there.

I havent! I'm really thinking these might want to sit for 6 months or so, to allow those flavours to really develop.

My actual wild ciders fermented equally as well as the Brett/Bacteria ciders which was very interesting. It will be very interesting to see if you can bring more flavour out of a commercial juice with the wild yeast.