Cider from concentrate...with preservatives

[Toxxyc]

Good morning ladies and gents,

In an attempt to flog the dead horse myself, herewith another thread on this topic. I'm sorry, you must be sick of it by now, but I can't find the specific info I'm looking for by just searching. So, let me begin with a story...

A few weeks ago I had a weird dream. Yes, I know how it sounds, but I'm not a crystal ball type guy who believes in star futures and fairies and ****. Anyway, to the dream. In the dream I had, a buddy's home brew stuff was stolen (which wouldn't be uncommon here in South Africa), and his mother approached me for advice on what to get him to get him back to brewing. As I showed her my fermentation chamber, I saw a red brew in there. Picked one up and according to myself in the dream, it was a "Rooibos Cider".

Now, to those who don't know Rooibos, it's a type of tea that's native to South Africa and has a pretty definitive flavour. It's called "rooibos" and literally translates to "red bush" in English. It creates a deep, almost rusty-coloured red tea with a delicate flavour.

And back to the cider - when I woke up, the idea was born and I made a note as to not forget it. I want to make a Rooibos Cider. Bright red in colour, if possible, around 5% ABV and with a good Rooibos flavour. So the plans started.

I searched around for options on juice, and found no fresh pressed or squeezed juices in my area. It's just not available, it seems. I also don't intend on spending half my salary on apples to squeeze to make just one batch of cider, so I started looking at other options. I looked for cider kits, since I know they come with juice concentrates, and saw what those kits cost. It's a no-no if I want just part of the kit, so I started searching for the concentrates the kits used.

Unable to find quantities less than 50l concentrate drums (which is used to make around 1,000l of juice at a time), I started looking for more plain pure concentrates. I then found a manufacturer who makes 100% pure juice concentrates, without any other additives like sucrose or other fruits that's not disclosed. I also noticed they have preservatives added. The Apple juice I got contains Potassium Metabisulfite and Potassium Sorbate. The Cranberry juice contains Potassium Sorbate and Sodium Benzoate, along with some other things I don't worry about like citric acid.

So, I don't worry about the k-meta. I know it'll dissipate after dilution with even a little bit of time, so on to the next one. Sorbate I can apparently overcome with a large yeast colony, and here I have a plan (later on this). It's the benzoate I'm a bit more worried about. From what I understand it has the same effect as sorbate, so if I can beat the sorbate I should be able to beat the benzoate as well, correct?

On the bottles they do mention if I dilute the juices it should be kept in the fridge to "prevent spoilage", so obviously it's not immune to infection after dilution. That's a good sign.

Finally, I've asked for the spec sheet on they amount added to the concentrate on production. If it's low enough, I can probably ignore the preservatives and just ferment through it, but I'm erring on the side of caution that it won't be that low.

And herewith my two questions:

1. Can I get rid of the preservatives using a simple, easy method, or is this not possible?
2. If #1 is not possible, what yeasts should I look for that might be able to overpower the preservatives? I'm aware that I'll probably have to build a large starter to pitch, but would something like a kveik yeast not be a great idea to try here? I have no quarrels feeding the yeast with all the required stuff should I opt to just pitch straight into the dissolved concentrates...

My method would be pretty simple - make a large amount of Rooibos tea, maybe even directly into the fermenter. Add some concentrate and add sugars to boost ABV to the required levels. Idea is to dissolve the juice concentrates to past where they are considered "drinkable" because the flavours are too strong there, further dissolving the preservatives and all that.

So yeah, just my questions. If it's not worth it, I'll just forget this idea and buy a kit sometime, but I'm hoping that I can make it work with this concentrates...

 

[madscientist451]

Its hard enough to make decent cider if you start with good tree ripened fruit.
I've tried to make cider and other fruit wines with all kinds of industrial processed juice products and I just wasn't happy with the results. I would never try to make cider with juice that had preservatives added.
I looked on Google, apples are grown in South Africa. An apple farm will produce a great quantity of seconds, fruit that is small, irregular, blemished or otherwise not sent to grocery stores. That fruit is being made into juice somewhere. Keep looking for quality juice. Frozen apple juice concentrate can also be used, it usually doesn't have preservatives.
I'd add your tea to the cider after fermentation is complete.
While you are waiting for the juice to ferment, some blending trials using a commercial cider you can get like Strongbow to see how much tea you need to add to get the flavor you are looking for.
I'm having a slow day, so I looked up apple juice available in Supermarkets in S. Africa:
From Woolworth's S. Africa web site, don't know if you can get this where you are...

 

[Toxxyc]

I can get that, yes, buuuuut it costs R24 per litre. That means a 23l batch will cost me R550-ish, which is more than what a good Mangrove Jack's cider kit costs - and those cider kits make one hell of a cider!

On the fresh apples and so on - I have found a company that makes concentrates and fresh juices and so on that I can use, without preservatives, just frozen, but the prices are eye-watering. It's not really a market here in SA, it seems. All the options I have point me back to a kit being by far the cheapest option, time and time again, hence this concentrate.

Problem with Rooibos and adding it after the fact is that it needs heat to extract. I want to offset some of the juice with some of the Rooibos. I actually did a test a week or so ago to compare hot and cold brewing of Rooibos, and the cold brewing created...terrible results. I can't cold brew Rooibos, it just won't work, so I'm thinking if I use Rooibos tea to dissolve the juice and add dextrose to the ABV level - I should be good, no? I got numbers on the concentrates from the manufacturer as well:

Apple juice, ready to drink preservative levels:
Sodium Benzoate (ppm): 133 – 167
Sulphur Dioxide (SO2) (ppm): 83 – 117
Potassium Sorbate (ppm): 42 – 75

Cranberry juice, ready to drink preservative levels:
Sodium Benzoate (ppm): 137 - 163
Potassium Sorbate (ppm): 62 – 88

That's not a lot, to be honest. I expected more. The benzoate levels are the only ones that worry me a little bit - sorbate is way too low to prevent fermentation at that ABV and that pH levels. Does anyone know what benzoate actually does to the yeast? I know k-meta kills the stray bug here and there, and sorbate prevents budding (multiplying), but I have no idea what benzoate does...

 

[Maylar]

Sodium benzoate blocks the yeast's ability to assimilate nutrients / food, so they die. There's no way in hell I'd use any juice with either that or sorbate. But then, I live in apple country so...

 

[madscientist451]

The reason I'm saying add the tea after fermentation is that the fermentation process may take away some of the flavor you are looking for. Just make a super strong tea and do some blending trials to see what flavors you get.
The "cloudy apple juice" At 24R is a little pricey, but only a little more than what fresh pressed juice costs here in an apple producing area, so its not ridiculous.
I pay more than that when I buy 6 gallon buckets of wine grape juice from California.
I've never used the Mangrove Jack kit, it uses a juice concentrate that you have to add sugar to in order to make 6 gallons. One option is to add less water make a 4-4.5 gallon batch and then not add the sugar. Adding sugar to cider is going to have an effect on the taste. Some people don't mind the taste, but it I notice it and don't like the flavor in my cider.
Comparing the cider you will (potentially) get from the "cloudy apple juice" to what you are going to get from the Mangrove Jack kit isn't really a fair comparison. They will be different. Maybe you'll like the Mangrove Jack kit better? The best thing to do is try all the ingredient options you have and see what suits your taste.
You'll be wasting your time and money trying to make a cider from juice with preservatives.
However, if you already bought the concentrate, you can use it to backsweeten cider you make as long as you don't want to bottle carbonate, it may inhibit bottle conditioning, depending on how much is added.
Do they sell frozen apple juice concentrate in the supermarket?

 

[CKuhns]

Frozen Apple Juice Concentrate if you can find it is the cheepest and easiest. US $1 makes 2 to 3 litres depending upon OG you are targeting. If you can find in the grocery and it only contains vitamin C (aescorbic acid) then thats the way to go. OG about 1.050 makes a 20 L batch for $14 US. Not sure FAJC with no preservatives other than vitamin C is available in SA.

Tea works well if you make it very strong and steep (not boil) the tea in a gallon of water then cooled to room temp for reconstituting your FAJC in primary. Low temperature 15C or down to about 10C will result in a slow ferment but is best to preserve the tea flavors.

As mentioned above. I would shy away from anything with other preservatives.

 

[Toxxyc]

On the questions: We don't get frozen concentrates like those, no, not that I've seen. It took me 2 weeks just to pinpoint concentrates made without the addition of sucrose and colourants and flavouring additions and so on. It's a mission. Fresh apples and squeezing to juice is also not an option (at all), simply because of the cost of apples here. I wonder if that's not part of the problem as well. Most of our good produce is exported anyway.

Then, I see all your points, and because I already have the concentrate (which isn't a train smash, I plan on using it for other purposes anyway), I did a bit more research. I know plum wine isn't cider, but I'm aiming for higher pH and lower ABV, so I'm hoping I'm not missing the pot here...

I found a study from 2014 from the Department of Food Science and Technology in India, called "Effect of addition or Sodium Benzoate on the fermentation behaviour, psycho-chemical and sensory qualities of plum wine". I think you should be able do download it here: http://ndpublisher.in/admin/issues/IJFFTV4N2i.pdf

It is one HELL of a cool read, with the following being some VERY unexpected results: "The results showed that in general, the addition of sodium benzoate decreased the fermentation, but a concentration of 100-200 mg/L and the control were statistically at par with each other."

And the final resulting line: "Thus, the addition of 100-200 ppm sodium benzoate to the plum must gave the product with best quality."

I did NOT expect that, to be honest. To boot, they do mention that plums (on which the study is based) is highly acidic, something which apple and cranberry is not (not to that level, and not in concentrate, anyway). The high acidity also plays a role on the preservatives, since the combination of preservatives plays a role on the fermentability of the juice (or must, if you plan on fermenting it). The higher the acidity and the ABV, the less preservatives you need (which is why you don't need preservatives in whisky or other distilled stuff - ABV is high enough). By my logical deduction, I'm going to guess that since the pH of the apple/cranberry is even higher than plums, you'll need MORE preservatives to stabilise it, meaning it should ferment fine at the levels mentioned (it's below the levels mentioned in the study). The study does point out that the fermentation is SLOWER with the addition of benzoate, so I have to keep that in mind and build a bit of a starter. They also mention that the final gravity ends LOWER as the concentration of benzoate increases. Interesting...

Furthermore, from the same study: "According to Atkinson et al. (1959), SO2 provides a clean fermentation and 100 ppm of SO2 prevented oxidation and controlled undesirable microorganisms whereas in the absence of SO2, the growth of yeasts other than S. cerevisiae was possible resulting in variation in the composition of the fermented medium (Herraiz et al., 1990)."

The means the levels of SO2 won't make a different either. I'm loving this research!

 

[Toxxyc]

OK, so to continue on this, I added 40ml of the cranberry concentrate to around 750ml of dry mead at 11% ABV that I had lying around anyway, just to see what it'll do. If the bubbles and excessive CO2 is anything to go by, I'd say it's fermenting. How it'll turn out is anyone's guess though.

 

[JimRausch]

Very interesting Toxxyc. Hope it works!
My experience fermenting preserved ciders are with ones that have added sorbate. For health reasons around here, most of the fresh cider I can get has been sorbated. I overcome it by making a graf- starting wort fermenting about 2 days before adding the treated cider. Last year I did find some pasteurized but nonsorbated cider(but a bland variety, so I didn't want to use that by itself) and started that fermenting a couple days before adding the sorbated stuff. Basically I'm creating a starter with about 1/2 of the volume. No experience with trying to ferment a benzoate treated product.

 

[Toxxyc]

According to the product engineer at the factory, the benzoate does exactly the same as the sorbate, and the levels are NOT high enough to completely prevent fermentation. As such, I'll be running a test. Like you said, build a big-ass "starter" but using half the volume of the batch, like starting the fermentation, and then similar to step-feeding add more sugars later on when the fermentation is strong. I'll also "play it smart" and only add enough sugars at each step so I don't raise the gravity too much. If it ends up tapping out before the fermentation is 100% done, at least I'll end up with something that's not TOO horribly sweet, and I might be able to save it with a bucket of honey or something. I'll see. This is what tests are made for, and it makes it exciting!

 

[Zambezi Special]

No sure if this helps, but I've been making cider from packs of juice and almost all of those here will have been South African juices. Some of those were juices from the refrigerated area, some long life packs (like Rhodes).
They are all fermenting fine..
Note that I've only been making small batches, and to make it worse, for some of them I used baker's yeast and uncontrolled temperatures.
One batch was thrown on the trub of a beer making session, and I'm just doing another one now (controlled temperatures).

 

[Toxxyc]

Yeah, it actually does help. If you could get the specific juices and see what preservatives are in them, I would REALLY appreciate it, man! Right now I have Magalies 100% juice concentrates, these ones here: https://magaliescitrusonline.co.za/collections/5-litre-100-concentrates

 

[Zambezi Special]

I threw the packaging away, and unfortunately, just came back from the shop.
I'll have a look when I am there next (all juices were bought at Shoprite)

 

[Zambezi Special]

Brainwave:
I remember I took a picture of the packaging of the Rhodes apple juice:
It's on the shelves, not in the refrigerator section.

Label details: No preservatives added, no sugar added
Ingredients: Apple juice, Vitamin C (E300)
Per 100 mg:
183 kJ,
0.1 gr protein
10 gr glycaemic carbohydrate (of which total sugar: 10 gr)
2 mg Sodium
15 mg Vitamin C

Others to follow

 

[Toxxyc]

Ah yeah it seems they also use Vit C as preservative. Marko seems to have them on regular specials. I never thought about the Rhodes juices. A bud used LiquiFruit before, but he said that the cider came out "watery" and low on flavour. I'm guessing it's because it was clarified juices and so on, which is why I wanted to use concentrate (so I can add more "flavour", so to speak). I guess this is why we experiment. It's fun.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I searched around for options on juice, and found no fresh pressed or squeezed juices in my area. It's just not available, it seems.

Correct me if I'm wrong... Fruit harvest is seasonal.
It's late winter or early spring time there, yes? It's not apple season, so I wouldn't expect you to find any fresh pressed apple juice.

Unable to find quantities less than 50l concentrate drums (which is used to make around 1,000l of juice at a time), I started looking for more plain pure concentrates.

Why don't you just look for unconcentrated apple juice? Preservative-free pasteurized filtered apple juice sits on the shelves in every grocery store where I've ever shopped. I'd be very surprised if you don't have any.
It's not the greatest juice, but it's cheap and is probably available year-round.
For higher quality unfiltered juice, you'll need to wait for apple season.

I found a study from 2014 from the Department of Food Science and Technology in India, called "Effect of addition or Sodium Benzoate on the fermentation behaviour, psycho-chemical and sensory qualities of plum wine". I think you should be able do download it here: http://ndpublisher.in/admin/issues/IJFFTV4N2i.pdf

It is one HELL of a cool read, with the following being some VERY unexpected results: "The results showed that in general, the addition of sodium benzoate decreased the fermentation, but a concentration of 100-200 mg/L and the control were statistically at par with each other."

And the final resulting line: "Thus, the addition of 100-200 ppm sodium benzoate to the plum must gave the product with best quality."

I'm not nearly as impressed with this study.

The most notable (and predictable) result is that as the sodium benzoate increased, fermentation was much more inhibited, resulting in a slower fermentation and a lower final ABV.
The sensory panel was all over the place, not showing a trend, so any conclusions drawn from that will be faulty. They didn't provide any details about the sensory parameters or results, so the alleged sensory analysis is completely useless in my opinion.
Furthermore, the unpasteurized nature of the juice makes the results very questionable since we don't know whether results may be due to differences in the microbial cultures between the wines instead of the experimental variable.

To boot, they do mention that plums (on which the study is based) is highly acidic, something which apple and cranberry is not (not to that level, and not in concentrate, anyway).

Not true. The TA of the plum must in the study is comparable to apple must. On the higher end, but not unusual.

Cranberries are FAR more acidic than apples and plums.

The higher the acidity and the ABV, the less preservatives you need (which is why you don't need preservatives in whisky or other distilled stuff - ABV is high enough).

Besides the alcohol level, distilled spirits have basically no nutritional value for almost all microbes.

By my logical deduction, I'm going to guess that since the pH of the apple/cranberry is even higher than plums, you'll need MORE preservatives to stabilise it, meaning it should ferment fine at the levels mentioned (it's below the levels mentioned in the study).

No. As mentioned, plums are not overly acidic.
Also, you'd have insufficient evidence to draw such a conclusion anyway.

They also mention that the final gravity ends LOWER as the concentration of benzoate increases. Interesting...

What? No it doesn't. Take another look there.
The higher benzoate wines have higher FG and lower ABV.

Furthermore, from the same study: "According to Atkinson et al. (1959), SO2 provides a clean fermentation and 100 ppm of SO2 prevented oxidation and controlled undesirable microorganisms whereas in the absence of SO2, the growth of yeasts other than S. cerevisiae was possible resulting in variation in the composition of the fermented medium (Herraiz et al., 1990)."

The means the levels of SO2 won't make a different either. I'm loving this research!

I'm not sure what you're reading into this. Sulfite reduces unwanted wild microbial activity, and prevents oxidation.
Using must with sulfite added is fine because you can easily remove the sulfite before fermentation.

As such, I'll be running a test.

Yeah, that's really the only way to know what may happen. A large starter with lots of healthy yeast should help.

I'll also "play it smart" and only add enough sugars at each step so I don't raise the gravity too much.

Perfect!
Good luck with your experiments.

 

[Toxxyc]

Thanks for that, Sir. Always appreciate your inputs. And yes, I meant that the final ABV ends lower as the concentration of benzoate increase. I find that interesting because it might open up the channels for naturally sweet ciders or wines, without the need for backsweetening, if there was some level of accuracy in predicting or testing for an aimed higher FG.

 

[Maylar]

I know a guy who made cider from orchard juice that had sodium benzoate in it. It took a massive over pitching of yeast to get it to ferment and the final result had an odd off flavor that didn't age out. YMMV.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for that, Sir. Always appreciate your inputs. And yes, I meant that the final ABV ends lower as the concentration of benzoate increase. I find that interesting because it might open up the channels for naturally sweet ciders or wines, without the need for backsweetening, if there was some level of accuracy in predicting or testing for an aimed higher FG.

That is an interesting idea, if in fact there's not a significant negative sensory impact. "Naturally sweet" isn't the right phrase but I get what you're saying. There are plenty of folks that ask how to stop a fermentation.

I doubt you could consistently achieve a predictable FG, but maybe.

I do occasionally suggest sodium benzoate as a preservative when people have a sulfite intolerance but need to stabilize a cider.

There's very little published experience with using it because there's some concern for benzene production, a carcinogen. The amount produced is negligible though, according to available data.

I know a guy who made cider from orchard juice that had sodium benzoate in it. It took a massive over pitching of yeast to get it to ferment and the final result had an odd off flavor that didn't age out. YMMV.

It probably had 0.1% (1000ppm), much higher than the OP's juice or the juice in the article.

 

[Maylar]

It probably had 0.1% (1000ppm), much higher than the OP's juice or the juice in the article.

Yes, I recall that 0.1% was what the orchard quoted him. Enough to "keep the cider fresh for a week." He waited a week before pitching, thinking that it'd be gone by then. It wasn't.

 

[Toxxyc]

Yeah the numbers in my juice isn't that high. Nowhere near that high, luckily.

On the flipside, the little bit of concentrate I put into a dry mead I'm busy making is fermenting. It's really slow, but it's going, and there's not a lot of off flavours in there at all. Cranberry flavour is pretty prominent. It's pretty good.

 

[Toxxyc]

That is an interesting idea, if in fact there's not a significant negative sensory impact. "Naturally sweet" isn't the right phrase but I get what you're saying. There are plenty of folks that ask how to stop a fermentation.

I doubt you could consistently achieve a predictable FG, but maybe.

I have the containers. I'll do a side-by-side test on tiny batches (quart-sized) with the same yeast and all that, and report back. It's going to be a few weeks (still busy with my mead, which is absolutely stunning, by the way), but I think I'll do it for the sake of it. Sounds like a lekker idea. Idea:

Mix up a batch of juice using the concentrate diluted to the recommended numbers. Take OG.
Split batch into two glass bottles to use as "fermenters".
Rehydrate a sachet of SafCider yeast. SafCider as I have a sachet in the fridge and it apparently works for "difficult fermenting conditions".
Leave for a few weeks to really get done. I'll feed Fermaid O according to TOSNA 2.0 as I don't there will be a lot of nutrients in there for the yeast.
At the end, measure FG and report back on all the stuff we need - FG, flavour, aroma, etc. Compare the two FGs as well. It's tiny batch and I'm probably going to overpitch the yeast, but that's fine. Will at least give me an idea.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's tiny batch and I'm probably going to overpitch the yeast, but that's fine.

If you're planning to scale up the batch if it turns out good, you should pitch a realistic amount of yeast.

 

[Toxxyc]

Yep. I'm planning an overpitch on a larger batch as well. I'll probably create a big starter with a good amount of nutrients to let the colony boom and then I'll pitch that.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Going back to bought apple juice:
The one I am using now has Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as preservatives and she doesn't want to ferment. I'm giving it a bit longer and next time, I'll go back to the juice with Vitamin C as preservative.

 

[Toxxyc]

Going back to bought apple juice:
The one I am using now has Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as preservatives and she doesn't want to ferment. I'm giving it a bit longer and next time, I'll go back to the juice with Vitamin C as preservative.

Do you know what ppm the preservatives are in there? I sent a message to the manufacturers of the juice I have and they sent me the numbers quoted earlier. Might help a bit to know the numbers?

 

[Zambezi Special]

Nope, no other information than that these preservatives are present.
I am just going to leave it for a bit and see what happens. Maybe it is just a delayed start?
If not, then I'll add some bread yeast to see if I can get it going. I used the trub from a batch of beer, so not sure how active the yeast cells are

 

[Toxxyc]

Should be very. A batch of beer generally has a lekker colony you can pitch on. Should also ferment very quickly, with little to no delay.

 

[Zambezi Special]

I should have taken a gravity reading, just to see if anything is happening that I can't see.
It's a bit late, but I'll do it anyway and I'll keep checking

 

[Zambezi Special]

Okay, I did 2 gravity readings with the refractometer, 3 days apart.
And there is a difference, so something is happening (went from between 6-6.5 to 5.5-6).
Also, even the first time, I detected a slight tingling when tasting, which I assume is CO2.
I noticed it again today.
Taste is still apple juice, but no longer as sweet as it was originally. No off-flavours or anything.
We'll see what happens over time....

 

[Toxxyc]

Alright, so I started a test batch this weekend. Built a starter using SafCider yeast (wide temp range, says it works even for "difficult fermentation conditions"), made a strongish Rooibos tea and added concentrate. In the end the concentrate was over-diluted but the flavour is still there, so I hope the over-dilution helps to reduce the preservative in solution enough to allow fermentation. It's in a 5l water bottle with an airlock in the fermentation chamber for now. This morning I had some obvious activity in the solution, but no real bubbles in the airlock yet. Let's see what happens here.

 

[papz]

I skipped the bulk of this thread so forgive me if what i say is way off in left field here.
Why not just make the cider like you would a regular one and pour the rooibos tea in it after fermentation is done?

 

[Toxxyc]

I skipped the bulk of this thread so forgive me if what i say is way off in left field here.
Why not just make the cider like you would a regular one and pour the rooibos tea in it after fermentation is done?

The tea will dissolve it too much, after fermentation, if you ask me. That's my only reason.

 

[Toxxyc]

Aaaand I checked in on the fermenting mush. It's going. It's fermenting VERY slowly, but it's definitely fermenting. If I have to compare, I'd have to say it's going at about 1/3rd the rate of a normal beer fermentation. Slower than mead, even. The airlock isn't moving, but I found out that's because there's a leak in my grommet. Yay. It's fine though, if I shake up the bottle a bit, enough CO2 is released to make the airlock MOVE, so there's definitely fermentation.

Onto the cider itself. I did a tiny little taste test (like teaspoon), because I only have a tiny little batch. My colour is off, that much was obvious first and foremost. The Rooibos is giving a more rusty red colour than bright red. The colour is also darker than I expected, but that may still clear up a bit, so there's hope. The aroma is pretty Rooibos-y, which is good. There is also a definite cranberry nose, which is great. It still smells pretty sweet, and I guess because of the preservatives and the yeast taking so long to do it's job, it's actually one of the cleanest smelling fermentations I've ever smelled. There's no yeast smell on the nose - AT ALL. Also, and this is a big one, no sulphur!

Now here is where it gets interesting. The taste. It's still sweet, obviously carbonated, but it's also the cleanest ferment I have tasted to date. There are no yeast flavours I could pick up in the small taster I had. And I mean, none. All I got was, first and foremost, a hit of Rooibos. Because of the remaining sugar you almost miss the cranberry, but it hits you as a very crisp, tart flavour right after the Rooibos. The sweetness and the cranberry flavour only comes in after this. Again, no yeast flavour that I could pick up. To be honest, if the sweetness was a little lower I would have poured a glass and been happy with it as it is right there, no aging needed. This kind of corresponds to that study on the plum wines that I read - the ferment is clean, with a strong accent on the flavours. It's very slow, yes, and I'm pretty sure it might end up not finishing completely bone dry, but that's also just fine. It's very, very good, and I love how it's progressing so far. I can only hope that it continues on this path, and I'll keep my eye on it to make sure it does!

 

[Zambezi Special]

Interesting and pretty similar to what I have been noticing, except that you word it so much better!
Mine has come to a standstill and is ready for bottling.
I am thinking of using the trub once again...

 

[Toxxyc]

I thought about using the same trub, but considering what the preservatives do to the yeast I don't want to risk it. The vast majority of that trub's colony is going to be sterile and useless in the next fermentation, if I understand the preservatives correctly. I would rather buy a new packet of yeast, but I'll definitely use SafCider again. The concentrate is so much cheaper to use that that money saved can easily be used to buy the yeast.

To boot, I over-diluted the concentrate, and used 400ml concentrate in 5l. If I step this up and move to a 25l batch, I'll use 2l of concentrate in the entire batch. That means the R340 I spent on the concentrate works out to R136 for the juice in the cider. That's not a lot at all. The addition of 30 Rooibos teabags is another R20 or so, and the half a bag of dextrose is something like R10. That means it's one of the cheapest brews I've made to date, disregarding the fact that it might just turn out into a good cider.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Makes sense, but I am going to try anyway (I'm stubborn like that)
+ I don't have easy access to yeast...
Only going to do 4 or 5 litres, so no harm done if I don't succeed (and it hasn't got much labour involved. No mash, no crushing of grain, just pouring juice and sugar in a fermenter )

 

[Toxxyc]

Figured I'll post some pics. How I'm fermenting this one. It's been moved to the fermentation chamber, obviously, this was just the first few minutes, had to find a place to set it down:

And the gravity of this cider, 1.046, giving me a potential ABV of around 6.5% if it ferments to bone dry. Oops. Yes, I overshot it, completely, but that's fine. Maybe it'll stop short because of the preservatives like in the test I read up about:

And the colour. It's rusty red, not bright red like I dreamed up, but looking at the colour of Rooibos I'm never going to get that bright red as long as Rooibos is involved. It's just not how it looks, period, so I'm happy with this:

 

[Toxxyc]

Alright, took a bit of a look at the bottle this morning. No more foam on top and no more CO2 rising. Shook the bottle and got a bit of CO2 escaping still, so it must have ended recently. From the drops of spillage I took a taster. Dry, quite tart from the cranberries, but very clean. No off flavours and no sulphur I can pick up. Will leave it for a few weeks (going on holiday anyway) and then I'll bottle. So far though, with initial impressions, it's a clean, flavourful cider. Tastes like tart Rooibos, which is great. Rooibos flavour didn't get stripped out like predicted. It's strong and quite on the money.

Looking to turn into a fantastic cider, this.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Glad to hear that.
Frankly, I can't stand rooibos .
Luckily not everyone is the same

My cider is standing and will take another week or so before tasting.
The new juice that I threw on the trub, didn't look like it was doing much, so I just added some extra yeast (brewers yeast for Chibuku). Gonna be interesting