Chris White of White Labs says it’s not necessary to wash yeast?

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SouthBayBrewer31

SouthBayBrewer31

SouthBayBrewer31
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I watched an 1.5 hour interview with Chris White, and in it he says he prefers to just scoop out a portion of the yeast cake, and use it in the next beer instead of washing it. If Chris White says it’s better not to bother washing then I’m comfortable trying it out. This will make it so much easier. My question is how much should I scoop out?

I am brewing a big 1.090 American Stout, and I want to try this technique on this beer. I’ll be using the yeast from a 1.050 blonde ale. Brewer’s friend’s pitching calculator says I need 450 billion cells, but I don’t have an accurate way of knowing how much is in the slurry. Do I use 1 cup? 2cups? Does anyone use this method of reusing yeast?
 


Here’s the video if anyone is interested. I can’t remember the exact part of the video he mentions it, but he definitely does. Lots of great info if you’re willing to watch the whole thing.
 
I'm no expert, but I reused yeast a couple of weeks ago for the first time. It was sort of spur of the moment, so I just swirled the fermentation bucket when I was done racking my last batch to the keg. There were a few ounces of beer left on the top, but not much. After swirling, I sanitized the inside of the bucket and sprayed Star San in a 16 ounces mason jar, then poured in the beer/trub/yeast. Overnight, there was a pretty big stratification of the beer on top and the trub/yeast on the bottom.

I brewed my last batch about two weeks ago, and used half of the mixture (so about 8 ounces). I think the OG was about 1.075, so it was less than yours. Fermentation was very vigorous, and the bubbling lasted longer than when I pitch a regular packet of Safale US05. I wouldn't be surprised if that amount (about 8 ounces) was enough for 1.090.
 
A proper yeast pitch (a la Mr. Malty, BrewUnited, etc.) typically multiplies 4x to 5x in a batch. So for a batch of similar gravity, pitching a 1/4 of the (non-washed) yeast cake should suffice, with a possibility of a small overpitch.

For a stronger wort, adjust accordingly.
In your case, use 2x as much in your 1.090 Stout (1/2 of the Blonde cake) as you would use for another 1.050 brew (1/4 cake). Since it's a high gravity brew, oxygenate well, possibly a second time 12-18 hours after pitching, before fermentation starts.

It is important to get a homogenized or representative 'scoop' from that cake, so you have a healthy population of cells in there, from fast to slow flocculators.

When the harvested cake gets older, adjust for reduced viability. It's still very much a wet finger weather prediction approach, with some educated guesswork.
 
Depends on your process.

If you aren't separating kettle trub, or are dry hopping before harvesting, I would absolutely wash, and viability will suffer.

If you do a good whirlpool and leave the trub in the kettle, pitch a healthy viable pitch, and harvest before dry hopping, yeah no need to wash.

Ideally, using a conical and a slow harvest you can dump cold break and then harvest very pure, very thick creamy yeast with ideal cell count and viability.
 
I quit washing yeast several years ago. I just save a quart of the slurry in a mason jar. If I brew again within a few weeks, I just shake it up and toss about 1/2 of it in. If its been a while, I dump out the beer on top of the yeast and add some starter wort. Pretty simple, and it works for me. Your results may vary.....
:mug:
 
IslandLizard said:
A proper yeast pitch (a la Mr. Malty, BrewUnited, etc.) typically multiplies 4x to 5x in a batch. So for a batch of similar gravity, pitching a 1/4 of the (non-washed) yeast cake should suffice, with a possibility of a small overpitch.
Click to expand...

^^^This. A quarter of the slurry from a prior batch (provided it's not too old and a normal gravity beer) seems to work perfectly.
 
SouthBayBrewer31 said:
Does anyone use this method of reusing yeast?
Click to expand...

i do it for years...are you worried about over pitching? why not just pitch it all? are you trying to save some for more batches? (when i pitch a full slurry from the last batch, quite often it's actively fermenting before i'm done washing my brew kettle)
 
bracconiere said:
i do it for years...are you worried about over pitching? why not just pitch it all? are you trying to save some for more batches? (when i pitch a full slurry from the last batch, quite often it's actively fermenting before i'm done washing my brew kettle)
Click to expand...

I find it has a slight off-flavour when I use a whole yeast cake. I hypothesise that it's due to pH - either the overpitch causes the pH to drop too low (lots of yeast to quickly modify their environment), or not low enough (so many yeast they go straight to eating rather than modifying their environment). I've been wanting to test it for the past year, but never seem to find the time (i.e. I'm too lazy). One day I want to get to testing the pH throughout the ferment (and taste of finished beer) of a 5x underpitch, 2x underpitch, normal pitch, 2x overpitch and 5x overpitch. One day. It might be in my head, but I find beers that start actively fermenting between 12 to 24 hours taste the best.
 
IslandLizard said:
A proper yeast pitch (a la Mr. Malty, BrewUnited, etc.) typically multiplies 4x to 5x in a batch. So for a batch of similar gravity, pitching a 1/4 of the (non-washed) yeast cake should suffice, with a possibility of a small overpitch.

For a stronger wort, adjust accordingly.
In your case, use 2x as much in your 1.090 Stout (1/2 of the Blonde cake) as you would use for another 1.050 brew (1/4 cake). Since it's a high gravity brew, oxygenate well, possibly a second time 12-18 hours after pitching, before fermentation starts.

It is important to get a homogenized or representative 'scoop' from that cake, so you have a healthy population of cells in there, from fast to slow flocculators.

When the harvested cake gets older, adjust for reduced viability. It's still very much a wet finger weather prediction approach, with some educated guesswork.
Click to expand...

Thanks Island Lizard. A 1/2 cake seems like a ton of yeast but I’m going to live on the edge and give it a shot. I’ll post the results.
 
Qhrumphf said:
Depends on your process.

If you aren't separating kettle trub, or are dry hopping before harvesting, I would absolutely wash, and viability will suffer.

If you do a good whirlpool and leave the trub in the kettle, pitch a healthy viable pitch, and harvest before dry hopping, yeah no need to wash.

Ideally, using a conical and a slow harvest you can dump cold break and then harvest very pure, very thick creamy yeast with ideal cell count and viability.
Click to expand...

I’m not too worried about trub. I have one of those HopStoppers from the electricbrewery.com and it works fantastic.
 
bracconiere said:
i do it for years...are you worried about over pitching? why not just pitch it all? are you trying to save some for more batches? (when i pitch a full slurry from the last batch, quite often it's actively fermenting before i'm done washing my brew kettle)
Click to expand...

I’m the video Chris says that pitching the whole cake is grossly over pitching, and can produce off flavors. Idk if I’d be able to tell, but I figure I’ll play it safe.
 
SouthBayBrewer31 said:
I am brewing a big 1.090 American Stout, and I want to try this technique on this beer. I’ll be using the yeast from a 1.050 blonde ale. Brewer’s friend’s pitching calculator says I need 450 billion cells, but I don’t have an accurate way of knowing how much is in the slurry. Do I use 1 cup? 2cups? Does anyone use this method of reusing yeast?
Click to expand...

I cannot say for sure and I am not sure how to calculate the yeast cells in in a slurry. I recently brewed a 1.104 Russian Imperial Stout. It was a 2.5 gal batch. I pitched a full 16 oz of yeast slurry of S-04 from a Porter that I kegged the day prior. I took a gravity reading around day 4 and I was close to my expected FG already. It might have been an over pitch, but it worked out well.

Since I moved to this method back in December, I have been playing around a bit to figure out what works well. I pitched 8 oz of WLP001 slurry that was 1 month old into a 1.070 IPA and I had very solid fermentation 24 hours after pitching. If in doubt, it is probably best to overpitch. I would suggest pitching 16 oz of slurry into your stout.
 
SouthBayBrewer31 said:
I watched an 1.5 hour interview with Chris White, and in it he says he prefers to just scoop out a portion of the yeast cake, and use it in the next beer instead of washing it. If Chris White says it’s better not to bother washing then I’m comfortable trying it out. This will make it so much easier. My question is how much should I scoop out?

I am brewing a big 1.090 American Stout, and I want to try this technique on this beer. I’ll be using the yeast from a 1.050 blonde ale. Brewer’s friend’s pitching calculator says I need 450 billion cells, but I don’t have an accurate way of knowing how much is in the slurry. Do I use 1 cup? 2cups? Does anyone use this method of reusing yeast?
Click to expand...
look up Ray Daniels ,might be a yeast count chart somewhere. dry,slurry and slant.
Harvesting from a previous batch yeast cake , 1 qt per 5 gallon batch should be plenty...use a blowoff tube.
 
If you use the same volume or slightly more than before than I wouldn't even bother with separating something and just dump the wort on the existing cake. Worked out pretty well for me several times. Otherwise, I would go with what @IslandLizard said above, so about half of the cake in your case. But using the whole cake wouldn't make much of a difference, based on experience.
 
I’ve never counted yeast cells once in my life.
Your mileage may vary.
Prices subject to change without notice.

I use BrewUnited’s calculator to get my pitch rates and size starters.
I overbuild my starters by 100 billion cells each time, so I can pour off that portion of the starter beer, let it settle in the fridge overnight, decant and save that 100 billion for future batches.
I’ve been doing this for about 30 batches now with different yeasts and I can tell you results are very consistent.

Most relevant to this thread is the consistency of the amount of yeast cake that settles to the bottom of the mason jars at every step along the way.
I figured I’d share those here as data points for estimating cell count by yeast cake size/volume.

100 billion cells = 25ml
400 billion cells = 125ml

Let’s talk trub...
This starter wort, I create using dme. I make no efforts to eliminate any hot break or cold break, although there is very little. The amount of trub in a fermenter will affect the volume to cell count ratio in the cake.
The 5x growth in in my starter cakes above is more than the predicted 4x growth of the their cell counts. This difference might be trub (break material) or the calculator is off a bit.
I can tell you that the 25ml of yeast cakes I harvest is very consistent.

I end up with a fairly consistent 1250ml yeast cake on my finished 5.5 gallon batches.
That 8x growth is considerably more growth than @IslandLizard post above about the yeast cell count multiplying 4x to 5x in a batch. This difference is most likely trub, as I do get some break material in the fermenter.
For my process, I’d feel comfortable assuming ~300ml of yeast cake is a ~400 billion cell count; a typical pitch rate for 5.5 gallons of 1.055 lager.
 
IslandLizard said:
1 qt of harvested slurry?
Click to expand...
yes. Daniels says the commercial rate would be something like 3 gallons of slurry per 5 gallon batch but for the homebrewer rate , a quart of freshly active yeast cake is plenty.
 
Last edited:
Soulshine2 said:
yes. Daniels says the industrial rate would be something like a gallon of slurry per 5 gallon batch but for the homebrewer rate , a quart of freshly active yeast cake is plenty.
Click to expand...

My local brewery pitches 1 keg full of yeast into a 15bbl fermentor... that’s nowhere near a 20% by volume pitch... thats crazy and generally bad advice IMO. If that were accurate, a brewery with a 100bbl fermentor would need to pitch 40 kegs worth of slurry (20bbl’s).

Islandlizard has given good advice

A general rule of thumb is 2 million cells per milliliter of dense slurry. This is HIGHLY dependent on the density of the slurry though.
 
TheMadKing said:
A general rule of thumb is 2 million cells per milliliter of dense slurry. This is HIGHLY dependent on the density of the slurry though.
Click to expand...
That's where the 'pitch from slurry' tab in Mr.Malty is so helpful. Using a simple interface it gives a fairly realistic estimate of cell density in a given slurry. Now when you harvested from a NEIPA cake with a ton of dry hops it will contain a ton of other matter, so interpret accordingly, even if the slider is all the way over. Or strain a lot of the hop pulp and other trub out as I mentioned before.

Always use good sanitation practices when handling yeast of course. Turn the AC/heat pump off.
 
I found unsatisfying results after a couple generations of saving yeast cake and repitching. I returned to buying new.

That said, I've been happily using dried Kveik for a couple brews now.
 
Last December, I pitched 5 gallons of apple juice on the dregs of wheat beer. I used WB06. The cider was pretty tart. Granny Smith Tart!

Been working on killing the keg, it's very clean and clear. It's really surprisingly tart, not by smell only by taste. I wonder how much of that is the over pitching.

I'd definitely do it a gain for a spring/summer drink. It's an easy way to keep the pipeline full.
 
tellyho said:
I found unsatisfying results after a couple generations of saving yeast cake and repitching. I returned to buying new.

That said, I've been happily using dried Kveik for a couple brews now.
Click to expand...

I don’t want to derail the thread, but do you mind sharing how you dry it? Also, is it a commercial strain you are having success with?
 
lupulinaddict said:
I don’t want to derail the thread, but do you mind sharing how you dry it? Also, is it a commercial strain you are having success with?
Click to expand...
You don't dry the yeast. You store them in sanitized canning jars. You keep them in dormant live state. Basically, in the food line waiting to be fed.

Drying is for long term storage at an industrial level.

I don't know any home brewer is equiped to dry yeast.

That said dry yeast is too cheap typically to culture. Most people are doing this for very specific strains or big gravity beers.
 
The WB06 cider...
IMG_20190225_011126.jpeg
 
Schlenkerla said:
You don't dry the yeast. You store them in sanitized canning jars. You keep them in dormant live state. Basically, in the food line waiting to be fed.

Drying is for long term storage at an industrial level.

I don't know any home brewer is equiped to dry yeast.

That said dry yeast is too cheap typically to culture. Most people are doing this for very specific strains or big gravity beers.
Click to expand...
For centuries Nords have been drying their yeast at homebrew scale, Lars has instructions on how to do it specifically with Kviek: http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/393.html
 
Schlenkerla said:
You don't dry the yeast. You store them in sanitized canning jars. You keep them in dormant live state. Basically, in the food line waiting to be fed.

Drying is for long term storage at an industrial level.

I don't know any home brewer is equiped to dry yeast.

That said dry yeast is too cheap typically to culture. Most people are doing this for very specific strains or big gravity beers.
Click to expand...
Looks like this does not apply to kveik strains.
 
This is how I figure it:
Wort volume in liters x gravity in Plato=pitch volume in ml. x.75 for ale x 1.5 for lager.
So, for a 5.75 gal lager @ 1.060:
21.75 L x 15º P=326.5 ml slurry x 1.5 for lager = 489.75 ml slurry
Factor in your viability @ 80%: 489.75 x 1.25=612.18 ml
 
Yep. Drying kveik is a different monster. Safe to say kveik as a whole is a different monster. I've only used Voss and never tried drying it. But a wood kveik ring (or whatever they are) would be neat to have if only for novelty's sake.
 
Qhrumphf said:
Yep. Drying kveik is a different monster. Safe to say kveik as a whole is a different monster. I've only used Voss and never tried drying it. But a wood kveik ring (or whatever they are) would be neat to have if only for novelty's sake.
Click to expand...

afaik, they are not in use any more. They just store their yeast in plastik bottles or dried on baking paper.
 
Qhrumphf said:
Yep. Drying kveik is a different monster. Safe to say kveik as a whole is a different monster. I've only used Voss and never tried drying it. But a wood kveik ring (or whatever they are) would be neat to have if only for novelty's sake.
Click to expand...

I love that idea... Took a beer archeology class and they talked about references to "brew spoons" in medieval literature that were used to initiate fermentation. Probably a similar concept
 

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