Chiller preference question

[Sauls]

Been reading and reading on chillers and while I currently use a 50’ immersion type I always wondered if I’m missing out.

Understand the blichmanns plates are reported too close together and clog like a mother, but what about counterflow? Why are some friends not happy and going back to immersion?

5 gallon propane btw

 

[Jtvann]

You might get more feedback on this in the general or equipment forums, not sure you meant to post in the four sale area.

Here's my experience.

I started with a copper immersion chiller. It worked fine for 5 gallon batches. It got ugly as copper can do over time. Still worked, but cleaning it ... it never looked as pretty as stainless.

I moved to a stainless immersion chiller. For 5 gallon batches it worked fine as well, plus cleaning was easy. It stayed pretty. I moved up to 10 gallon batches though and it suffered.

I moved to a duda diesel plate chiller. It is super amazing fast at cooling. Crazy fast. I did have to whirlpool, but I did that anyway. I used hop spiders and hop bags, and naked hops with a whirlpool. When you do any of those, and do it well, it will keep the chiller from clogging. I religiously back flushed, soaked in oxiclean, and baked in oven every 4th use. Its higher maintenance than immersion chillers, but it works. I got tired of the maintenance and unreasonable paranoia that I couldn't take it apart to clean it .... so

I moved to a jaded hydra. It seems to be the best of all worlds so far. Easy to clean, chills just as fast as a plate chiller and I'm not worried about coodies inside it.

I've got no personal advise on a counter flow chiller, just opinions. To me they are a middle ground between immersion and plate. They shouldnt clog as easy as plate and should be easier to clean. Should be easy to sanitize. You still can't get inside it when it's 2 years old and clean it. That's why I never tried it. For me, they are just a slightly less efficient plate chiller, that is less likely to clog.

As far as posting in the for sale section, if you're wanting to tempt a plate chiller, I'd sell mine for 100. I won't go back from the jaded hydra.

 

[Sauls]

Oh crap! Thank you! Mods please move. Thanks and sorry

 

[Sauls]

Thank you for the response Jtvann. I guess I always get that uneasy feeling that my copper goes into the boil kettle for 15 min slightly dingy,and comes out brand new. I moved away from plastics and thought copper should be my next move as I up my quality.

Think I’ll do some more reading before I try a plate chiller but appreciate the offer.

 

[davidabcd]

@Pappers_ I think a fellow poster would like this moved, if possible, to an appropriate forum. Thanks.

 

[Shwagger]

I love plates. They cool in mere minutes and if you use a wort pump, they are easy to clean. Any pump will work as long as it moves water and cleaner

 

[Pappers_]

@Pappers_ I think a fellow poster would like this moved, if possible, to an appropriate forum. Thanks.

Thanks @davidabcd , moved it to equipment.

FWIW, I used an immersion chiller for a number of years, then a counterflow chiller, and now am using an immersion chiller more often again. I like the ease of use of the immersion chiller, how easy it is to clean, and the incredible cold break it gives me in the kettle.

 

[micraftbeer]

I did a write-up/review of the different chiller products a couple years ago (link here), for HomeBrewTalk when they were trying to get a regular bit of articles going. For that review, I evaluated:

1. 25 ft immersion chiller
2. JaDeD Hydra immersion chiller
3. Two different Duda plate chillers
4. Counterflow chiller

I collected data with cooling a volume of water and the times are on that link. There are a number of factors to control when doing this like wort flow speed and water flow speed, so I included those in the data. On some of the systems, flow rate is dictated by/controlled by restrictions in the chiller so I couldn't completely control everything to have it equal.

In summary, the large plate chiller was the fastest, followed by counterflow chiller, then JaDeD, then the standard immersion chiller. There are various pros/cons to each, of course. I was initially enamored by the plate chiller speed. Then I had one clog up on brew day leaving me with 4+ gallons of hot wort with no way to cool it down. I still don't think I've gotten that thing cleaned completely (every time I give it a go at soaking and cleaning, little hop bits come out), so I should probably recycle it. Although the immersion chillers are definitely easy to deal with, I found that if you don't sit and babysit it to bob it up and down, they take a long time. You cool off the wort sitting next to the coil and the rest takes forever to cool. And they don't lend themselves to keeping your pot closed up and protected from random air debris as your lid doesn't fit on top of the pot. I don't think I've ever had a problem, but doesn't mean I'm not paranoid...

So for me the unit I continue to use is the Exchilerator Maxx counterflow chiller. It's fast, I can cool the wort while keeping the lid on my kettle, and I can do other clean-up things while it's chilling the wort. I've never had a clog, and to clean it, I just cycle hot water through it for several minutes at the last part of clean-up. I don't get any residual hop debris coming out of it.



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wort-chiller-review-comparison.html

 

[Soulshine2]

Been reading and reading on chillers and while I currently use a 50’ immersion type I always wondered if I’m missing out.

Understand the blichmanns plates are reported too close together and clog like a mother, but what about counterflow? Why are some friends not happy and going back to immersion?

5 gallon propane btw

same as you. 50 ft copper immersion chiller.
its cheap , its effective , its easy to clean.

 

[Spartan1979]

I used an immersion chiller for over 25 years and recently switched to a counterflow. I switched when I built an electric brewery with a steam condenser and I couldn't figure out a way to keep using the immersion chiller. The hop spider also complicated the issue. If I could, I'd go beck to the immersion chiller.

 

[jcav]

I use two counter flow chillers in tandem. The first one has my ground water going through it which can be slightly warm here in Florida. This will get me down from boil temp to around 90 degrees. The second has ice water pumped through it. With the two of them I can get down to lager pitching temps with no problem if I use two big bags of ice. So that is what works for me and my electric herms system. They never clog and I flush them out with water. I also circulate PBW through it every other brew day or so.

John

 

[mongoose33]

I've used a few different immersion chillers, currently using a Stainless Steel counterflow chiller.

The best chiller I've ever used, hands-down, is the Jaded Hydra immersion chiller. I've taken a 5-gallon batch from boiling to 70 degrees in as little as 4 minutes with that chiller, and that is not an exaggeration.

I moved to the stainless counterflow because I went to electric brewing and doing low-oxygen brewing. There are ways around the LODO issues with copper (primarily using something like Brewtan B), but the larger issue for me was having the heating element in the kettle.

If I were brewing with propane, as you are, and wasn't doing LODO techniques, I wouldn't even consider a plate or a counterflow chiller.

Jaded Hydra. Period.

My 2 cents.

 

[dwhite60]

Immersion.

Cheap, easy to clean, effective enough.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[Sauls]

Appreciate everyone’s responses. Interesting to note no one mentioned the concern of copper byproducts during the boil/clean. KISS method is probably my best bet.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I've favored my 50' 1/2" SS IC over my DD Long 30 PC for the last couple years...

Cheers!

 

[logdrum]

50’x 1/2” home built dual coil copper immersion. I tried a plate for a bit, but the hop debris/cleaning issues were a drag. Works great w a whirlpool & easy to clean. I don’t drop it in until flame out.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

I have both but for speed I prefer my counterflow. The immersion chiller is simple and has benefits but with the counterflow I believe I can chill quicker and have a nice whirpool at the same time. Plus they have stainless counterflows if you are against using copper. Me personally I use stainless everywhere I can.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I did a write-up/review of the different chiller products a couple years ago (link here), for HomeBrewTalk when they were trying to get a regular bit of articles going. For that review, I evaluated:

1. 25 ft immersion chiller
2. JaDeD Hydra immersion chiller
3. Two different Duda plate chillers
4. Counterflow chiller

I collected data with cooling a volume of water and the times are on that link. There are a number of factors to control when doing this like wort flow speed and water flow speed, so I included those in the data. On some of the systems, flow rate is dictated by/controlled by restrictions in the chiller so I couldn't completely control everything to have it equal.

In summary, the large plate chiller was the fastest, followed by counterflow chiller, then JaDeD, then the standard immersion chiller. There are various pros/cons to each, of course. I was initially enamored by the plate chiller speed. Then I had one clog up on brew day leaving me with 4+ gallons of hot wort with no way to cool it down. I still don't think I've gotten that thing cleaned completely (every time I give it a go at soaking and cleaning, little hop bits come out), so I should probably recycle it. Although the immersion chillers are definitely easy to deal with, I found that if you don't sit and babysit it to bob it up and down, they take a long time. You cool off the wort sitting next to the coil and the rest takes forever to cool. And they don't lend themselves to keeping your pot closed up and protected from random air debris as your lid doesn't fit on top of the pot. I don't think I've ever had a problem, but doesn't mean I'm not paranoid...

So for me the unit I continue to use is the Exchilerator Maxx counterflow chiller. It's fast, I can cool the wort while keeping the lid on my kettle, and I can do other clean-up things while it's chilling the wort. I've never had a clog, and to clean it, I just cycle hot water through it for several minutes at the last part of clean-up. I don't get any residual hop debris coming out of it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wort-chiller-review-comparison.html

I'm sorry but this article is full of holes.

Immersion chillers don't need babysitting, you can just whirlpool with a pump and walk away. That would give a more apples-to-apples comparison with the other types of chillers that require a pump. Or better yet you could have done trials of the immersion chillers with a pump whirlpool and with no agitation.

Your write-up didn't say whether you agitated the liquid when using the JaDeD chiller.

The numbers in your resulting chart are impossible according to the laws of physics.
In particular, you put the wort flow rate through the Exchillerator as 1.3 gpm and the chilling time from 200 to 70 as 3:38. That's physically impossible and calls into question the rest of the results.
Edit: I see, you're measuring chiller output temperature, not batch temperature. You're comparing entirely different metrics between the different types of chillers ...

 

[Dland]

I use a 50 ft SS immersion chiller to drop down to around 170F, which it does quickly at higher temps with moderate water use. Then use the more efficient plate chiller to finish cooling as I pump to fermentor.

In between the two chillers I often do a hop step that I want to happen in 160-170F range.

In theory, this two step process also mostly eliminates the formation of DMS from slow cooling, not that I'm sure this was much of a problem when I let wort cool to 170F on its own. Certainly saves time though.

 

[kh54s10]

I'm sorry but this article is full of holes.

Immersion chillers don't need babysitting, you can just whirlpool with a pump and walk away. That would give a more apples-to-apples comparison with the other types of chillers that require a pump. Or better yet you could have done trials of the immersion chillers with a pump whirlpool and with no agitation.

Your write-up didn't say whether you agitated the liquid when using the JaDeD chiller.

The numbers in your resulting chart are impossible according to the laws of physics.
In particular, you put the wort flow rate through the Exchillerator as 1.3 gpm and the chilling time from 200 to 70 as 3:38. That's physically impossible and calls into question the rest of the results.
Edit: I see, you're measuring chiller output temperature, not batch temperature. You're comparing entirely different metrics between the different types of chillers ...

I haven't read that article in a while but I believe that his measurements reflect reality. It is getting the wort to the temperature needed for fermentation. An immersion chiller requires that to be the batch temperature. With a plate chiller, the temperature at the output is the correct place to measure that temperature. So the methodology is correct.

 

[kh54s10]

I took apart a ball valve that is on my boil kettle after a few uses and cleaned in place as best I could. YUCK!!! Thus I have no desire to have a chiller that cannot be taken apart to clean the insides.... The IC can be cleaned much more easily. Going electric as soon as the UniBrau arrives so I will soon see if I need to change things up.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I haven't read that article in a while but I believe that his measurements reflect reality. It is getting the wort to the temperature needed for fermentation. An immersion chiller requires that to be the batch temperature. With a plate chiller, the temperature at the output is the correct place to measure that temperature. So the methodology is correct.

Regardless, the numbers posted are very misleading. For example the Exchillerator would take 8:16 to chill the whole batch to 70°F with the procedure described.

Also, as mentioned in the article's comments, the chiller output temp is completely arbitrary because restricting wort flow into the chiller would reduce the output temp and allow single pass chilling almost immediately.

I took apart a ball valve that is on my boil kettle after a few uses and cleaned in place as best I could. YUCK!!!

Circulate cleanser through the system and cycle the valves open and shut several times to make sure it gets inside the mechanism. Leave half open for drying.

 

[kh54s10]

Regardless, the numbers posted are very misleading. For example the Exchillerator would take 8:16 to chill the whole batch to 70°F with the procedure described.

Also, as mentioned in the article's comments, the chiller output temp is completely arbitrary because simply restricting wort flow into the chiller would drastically reduce the output temp and allow single pass chilling almost immediately.


Circulate cleanser through the system and cycle the valves open and shut to make sure it gets inside the mechanism. Leave half open for drying.

I'm not debating that there are things that make the temperature measurements inaccurate, I was pointing out that the place the temperature was measured was correct for the type of chiller, which you seem to think makes a difference.

I did the cleanser thing. YMMV. I don't want a closed system. Note the reference to the plate chiller and multiple cleanings with debris still coming out.

 

[RPh_Guy]

CFC and plate chiller can't really be lumped together in that context.

 

[kh54s10]

CFC and plate chiller can't really be lumped together in that context.

How so? You can't get inside either to clean and for temperature you would measure both at the output. I have no idea your point here.

 

[Brooothru]

Thank you for the response Jtvann. I guess I always get that uneasy feeling that my copper goes into the boil kettle for 15 min slightly dingy,and comes out brand new. I moved away from plastics and thought copper should be my next move as I up my quality.

Think I’ll do some more reading before I try a plate chiller but appreciate the offer.

The "ickies" you see are on your chiller are copper oxides (copper 'rust') that can oxygenate your sweet wort during the chill, thus introducing a staling and stability issue in your finished beer.

That dull appearance of the chiller isn't a major concern and everything gets sanitized in the boil. Stainless steel doesn't 'rust' like copper, but is slightly less efficient in cooling.

It is a nice shiny toy, though.

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

How so? You can't get inside either to clean and for temperature you would measure both at the output. I have no idea your point here.

A plate chiller clogs and holds debris waaaaaaaay more than a CFC.

The CFC is just running the wort through metal tubing. There's no place for things to get stuck.

On the other hand here's the inside of a plate chiller:

It's like a filter.

 

[Shwagger]

Is oxygenating wort a bad thing now lol

Oh dear

 

[kh54s10]

A plate chiller clogs and holds debris waaaaaaaay more than a CFC.

The CFC is just running the wort through metal tubing. There's no place for things to get stuck.

On the other hand here's the inside of a plate chiller:
View attachment 656166
It's like a filter.

Got that, but you can't get inside either to clean. It is just degrees of how much debris could remain. I'll stick with IC as long as I can.

 

[passedpawn]

How so? You can't get inside either to clean and for temperature you would measure both at the output. I have no idea your point here.

Not so. I specifically chose a CFC that was cleanable. I replaced my blichman therminator plate chiller with it. See more here.

Chiller Showdown: Blichmann Therminator vs JaDeD Brewing Cyclone

 

[kh54s10]

Not so. I specifically chose a CFC that was cleanable. I replaced my blichman therminator plate chiller with it. See more here.

Chiller Showdown: Blichmann Therminator vs JaDeD Brewing Cyclone

View attachment 656168

Forgot about that one. EXPENSIVE!!!!!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Got that, but you can't get inside either to clean. It is just degrees of how much debris could remain. I'll stick with IC as long as I can.

How do you clean your immersion chiller?

 

[kh54s10]

How do you clean your immersion chiller?

Oxyclean and a brush. Can't do that inside a counterflow chiller. Or a plate chiller.

 

[passedpawn]

Forgot about that one. EXPENSIVE!!!!!

It comes with a bore brush to really clean it out. Easy to slip the silicone off and do the job. I did have a full clog once during the boil - it sucked a massive amount of hops in there. The fix was easy / quick. While it's not as fast as the plate chiller, I never considered going back.

I wonder what the advantage of such a fast chill is. I used to chase quick chill times the way I chased efficiency. But now, I can't remember why.

 

[kh54s10]

It comes with a bore brush to really clean it out. Easy to slip the silicone off and do the job. I did have a full clog once during the boil - it sucked a massive amount of hops in there. The fix was easy / quick. While it's not as fast as the plate chiller, I never considered going back.

I wonder what the advantage of such a fast chill is. I used to chase quick chill times the way I chased efficiency. But now, I can't remember why.

View attachment 656173

Being in Florida as I am, you can either accept slow chill times or you have to augment, even that chiller, with ice and such or you will only get down to air temperature. I have a home made 2 section IC where I can put one section into an ice bath. I have even given up on that. I chill it as low as I can within a reasonable amount of time and water, then I put the fermenter in my chamber then wait to reach pitching temps.

 

[passedpawn]

Being in Florida as I am, you can either accept slow chill times or you have to augment, even that chiller, with ice and such or you will only get down to air temperature. I have a home made 2 section IC where I can put one section into an ice bath. I have even given up on that. I chill it as low as I can within a reasonable amount of time and water, then I put the fermenter in my chamber then wait to reach pitching temps.

me too I suspect you and I have both arrived at a lot of the same settling points. Next time you're in the area stop by for a cold one

 

[RPh_Guy]

Oxyclean and a brush. Can't do that inside a counterflow chiller. Or a plate chiller.

Wow, that's dedication.
I have never and would never clean an immersion chiller anymore than a spray with a hose to remove crud.

I wonder what the advantage of such a fast chill is. I used to chase quick chill times the way I chased efficiency. But now, I can't remember why.

More predicable results from hops.
Better cold break formation.
Less risk of contamination.
Less oxidation.

 

[Shwagger]

Oxyclean and a brush. Can't do that inside a counterflow chiller. Or a plate chiller.

Sure you can. A pump

 

[micraftbeer]

I'm sorry but this article is full of holes.

Immersion chillers don't need babysitting, you can just whirlpool with a pump and walk away. That would give a more apples-to-apples comparison with the other types of chillers that require a pump. Or better yet you could have done trials of the immersion chillers with a pump whirlpool and with no agitation.

Your write-up didn't say whether you agitated the liquid when using the JaDeD chiller.

The numbers in your resulting chart are impossible according to the laws of physics.
In particular, you put the wort flow rate through the Exchillerator as 1.3 gpm and the chilling time from 200 to 70 as 3:38. That's physically impossible and calls into question the rest of the results.
Edit: I see, you're measuring chiller output temperature, not batch temperature. You're comparing entirely different metrics between the different types of chillers ...

@RPh_Guy, I agree that if you just scroll to the bottom and look at the table, the numbers can be misleading. But that's why I wrote all the stuff above it. I attempted to compare a wide variety of cooling tools, which leaves me open to snipers from all sides because they can't 100% be compared in a simplistic table of time to chill. My comments:

1. You had a good suggestion that it would've been a good data point to add a recirculation pump to the simple coil and JaDeD immersion chillers. I didn't think of that combination.

2. I wanted the simple coil immersion chiller to be my baseline as that's what many people start with & use because it's cheap and simple. In that form, they do not use a pump because that's extra complication and extra cost.

3. The JaDeD IC is not cheap, so maybe that user is more likely to use a pump to recirc while chilling instead of doing the manual bobbing up & down. It is still a good comparison in my data between simple IC vs fancy IC since in both instances there is no pump (and yes, I did the same non-controlled, non-standardized up & down manual bobbing of the IC until I got my last data point).

4. I thought quite a bit how to compare the 2 different groupings of test objects here (those flowing through a chiller and ouputing chilled wort vs the IC that is chilling the whole volume of wort at one time in the kettle). As I wrote in the article, I chose the time to 5F above cooling water for both because that would be the point in time for both you could transfer to fermentor. In the case of the units with the pump, that means redirecting the output hose into the fermentor and letting it run. For the IC, depending on your set-up, that may be picking up the pot and pouring into fermentor, or opening a valve and letting gravity run it into fermentor. I wasn't about to make my experiment even more variable by trying to account for all of these different methods. But that's why I put the data in the table of my wort flow through the chiller so people could see the flow rates to understand.

5. Also, as I mentioned in the article, comparing individual results from one person to another is going to introduce a lot of variables: each person's ground water temperature, tap water pressure, hose flow restriction due to diameter/material/etc, volume of wort they are chilling.

 

[passedpawn]

Wow, that's dedication.
I have never and would never clean an immersion chiller anymore than a spray with a hose to remove crud.

More predicable results from hops.
Better cold break formation.
Less risk of contamination.
Less oxidation.

I started out with an immersion. Immersion inside the kettle, then immerse the kettle in the pool. Haha. It was REALLY quick, but there were risks involved.

Haven't posted this in a while - time for a little humility ...