Carbonating in Keg using spunding valve with a few points left to FG

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've read that this method is beneficial to reduce oxygen pickup in the keg. A few questions for those of you who do this.

1) How long do you leave it in the keg at room temp before putting it in the keezer?
2) If you dry hop in keg, assuming it best to add dry hops at time of transfer from primary?
3) Isn't there a risk of diacetyl pickup since you are essentially doing the rest off of the yeast cake?
4) Do you use warmer (i.e. warmer than cold tap water) when sanitizing the keg as to not drop the temperature of the filling keg significantly vs. the primary vessel.

 

[friarsmith]

1) Anywhere from 4-7 days, then either ramp down in keezer or put in cold keezer and let it ride if the keezer is full of cold kegs already
2) I generally dry hop in primary 4-5 days after the brew day, but have had good success dry hopping in a muslin bag in the keg during carbonation
3) Not really. The last bits of non-flocc'd yeast and unfermented wort in the keg will take care of diacetyl if the temp is 5-10 degrees above PF temp
4) I sanitize as usual with slightly-cool-to-luke-warm StarSan solution.

I have had good success with both methods below but generally do #2. After each, I start the 4-7 day D-rest:

1) transfer the beer to keg when it is 2-4 points above FG (eg 1.016 on a predicted 1.012 FG). 2 points of fermentation produces about 1 volume of CO2.

OR

2) transfer the beer to keg within a day or two after reaching FG and add EITHER 1.5 quarts of saved wort (aka speise) from the brew day (saved in a sanitized mason jar in fridge) OR dextrose solution OR DME solution. They all work about the same. Brewers Friend and other sites have keg priming calculators. For my pale lagers I prefer the saved speise, FWIW

With both methods, before drinking, be sure to allow the beer to be cold for a few days to increase CO2 saturation. If a keg comes up short on desired carbonation, just hit it with CO2 at your desired serving pressure for a day or two.

I've never used a spunding valve. I've never had an issue with heavily over-carb'd beers with the above methods, FWIW. Use one if it eases your mind, though. I've primed all my beers, both ales and lagers this way for at least the last three years. Probably >90 batches. They're usually really, really close or spot on to desired carbonation. I've noticed better shelf life and beer presentation (compact head/bubbles), and I prefer the mouthfeel of a more naturally carb'd beer.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Anywhere from 4-7 days, then either ramp down in keezer or put in cold keezer and let it ride if the keezer is full of cold kegs already


I have had good success with both methods below but generally do #2. After each, I start the 4-7 day D-rest:

2) transfer the beer to keg within a day or two after reaching FG and add EITHER 1.5 quarts of saved wort (aka speise) from the brew day (saved in a sanitized mason jar in fridge) OR dextrose solution OR DME solution. They all work about the same. Brewers Friend and other sites have keg priming calculators. For my pale lagers I prefer the saved speise, FWIW

So when adding priming sugar you find that 4-7 days is enough time for that sugar to fully ferment out?

 

[friarsmith]

Yes, it's probably best to err on the high side of that range, but beers made w/ low flocc'ing yeasts (hefe, wit, kolsch) always seem to be near-explosive by the 4th or 5th day.

One caveat to your diacetyl question: If you're fermenting with a quickly flocc'ing yeast like many English ale strains which tend to be diacetyl-heavy, it's not a bad idea to rouse a little yeast when transferring to your keg. Or add a half-packet of CBC-1 for a cask-like beer. I just finished racking an amber ale yeast this afternoon fermented with a mix of Imperial Pub (like WY1968) and Imperial Independence (American II). At day 6 (today) the beer ran incredibly clear during the closed transfer, so I gave the fermenter a little swirl towards the end to pick up some yeast. I added a dextrose solution to the keg. Forgot to save some speise after the brew day last week :<

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Just stumbled across this new product. It's basically a PET unitank that is short enough to actually fit in my chest freezer.

thinking about just upgrading to this whenever its in stock in the US.


https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermzilla-rounder-fermenter-79-gal-30.html

I could then naturally carbonate directly in this thing with a spunding valve as opposed to transfiguring to a keg. Seems a lot simpler

 

[jwa120]

I ferment and spund in corny kegs. I ferment in a keg and have the gas post from my fermentation keg attached to the beverage side of a clean and sanitized keg, on the gas side of the serving keg i have my blow off tube or spunding valve attached. This purges my serving keg of practically all CO2. When I get within 5-10 points or so of my anticipated FG I put my spunding valve on, and set the psi based on a carbonation chart. Doing this prevents me from over carbonating my beer, since the valve will blow off any excess pressure. From there I do a closed transfer to the serving keg.

1. My fermentation usually take 5-10 days, I usually cold crash for a few days prior to transferring to the serving keg.
2. I usually do my dry hopping in primary while there is still some fermentation going on.
3. I haven't had issues with diacetyl, but my process completes fermentation in primary.

What's great about using a pressure vessel for fermenting is that it's easy to take samples without exposing your beer to O2, just be sure to have a few psi of pressure in the vessel and use a cobra tap to take the sample.

I think I have to buy that 8 gallon fermzilla you posted. It will fit in my fermentation fridge, is bigger then the 5 gal corny i am using now, and probably easier to clean. Northern Brewer has a similar PET fermentor that is 9.25 gallons. It was $99, but looks like they raised the price to $130 recently. The northern brewer version comes with keg posts and the floating dip tube which is an extra $20-30 for the morebeer version. The morebeer version still seems like a value and fit for me.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I ferment and spund in corny kegs. I ferment in a keg and have the gas post from my fermentation keg attached to the beverage side of a clean and sanitized keg, on the gas side of the serving keg i have my blow off tube or spunding valve attached. This purges my serving keg of practically all CO2. When I get within 5-10 points or so of my anticipated FG I put my spunding valve on, and set the psi based on a carbonation chart. Doing this prevents me from over carbonating my beer, since the valve will blow off any excess pressure. From there I do a closed transfer to the serving keg.

1. My fermentation usually take 5-10 days, I usually cold crash for a few days prior to transferring to the serving keg.
2. I usually do my dry hopping in primary while there is still some fermentation going on.
3. I haven't had issues with diacetyl, but my process completes fermentation in primary.

What's great about using a pressure vessel for fermenting is that it's easy to take samples without exposing your beer to O2, just be sure to have a few psi of pressure in the vessel and use a cobra tap to take the sample.

I think I have to buy that 8 gallon fermzilla you posted. It will fit in my fermentation fridge, is bigger then the 5 gal corny i am using now, and probably easier to clean. Northern Brewer has a similar PET fermentor that is 9.25 gallons. It was $99, but looks like they raised the price to $130 recently. The northern brewer version comes with keg posts and the floating dip tube which is an extra $20-30 for the morebeer version. The morebeer version still seems like a value and fit for me.

Do you find you need a screen on the floating dip tube when dry hopping in primary or does cold crashing drop out all of the hops?

Do you feel that dry hopping with all that yeast in suspension causes you to lose significant hop aroma when the yeast flocs out?

I currently dry hop in a purged kegs after yeast floccs from primary, but debating if I'm better off dry hopping in primary with a few points of OG left to eat up all that O2. I can't purge out as much O2 in a keg purge as I would adding to primary.

Maybe I'm overthinking this

 

[jwa120]

I found that dry hopping during active fermentation does change the character of the dry hops, it seems more fruity and softer then when I dry hop on a crashed beer. My biggest concern is O2 exposure when dry hopping, adding after fermentation increases my fear. I haven't had any issues with the floating dip tube clogging, cold crashing drops most of the hop matter out.

You gotta see what works best for your set up. I have noticed that my beers hold their aroma longer since I became more concerned with O2 exposure.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I found that dry hopping during active fermentation does change the character of the dry hops, it seems more fruity and softer then when I dry hop on a crashed beer. My biggest concern is O2 exposure when dry hopping, adding after fermentation increases my fear. I haven't had any issues with the floating dip tube clogging, cold crashing drops most of the hop matter out.

You gotta see what works best for your set up. I have noticed that my beers hold their aroma longer since I became more concerned with O2 exposure.

Thanks!

I just ordered two fermzillas. I brew 10- batches split between two fermentors.

For my next IPA I'll keg hop one half after crashing and primary hop the other. See if I notice a difference and establish a preference. I'll spund both in primary

I'll use a floculent strain as part of this experiment

 

[McKnuckle]

Here's a photo of my ferm setup, similar to what @jwa120 described. These are a 3 gallon fermenter keg on the right and a 2.5 gallon serving keg on the left. The serving keg has a floating dip tube. The fermenter has a standard dip tube that feeds into a small stainless hop canister (not used for hops in this case) through a hole drilled in its lid. This limits trub pickup at the end of the transfer.

 

[Wayne1]

Thanks!

I just ordered two fermzillas. I brew 10- batches split between two fermentors.

For my next IPA I'll keg hop one half after crashing and primary hop the other. See if I notice a difference and establish a preference. I'll spund both in primary

I'll use a floculent strain as part of this experiment

I hope you also ordered the pressure kits and a couple of extra carb connectors for the collection container.

Are you using a fridge for temp control or will they be free standing?

I have 2 FermZillas with the TempTwister coils and thermoprobe. I also use heat tape with an Inkbird controller. I use them free standing with the KegLand jacket.

With a gycol system and the TempTwister, I can drop the temp for 60F to 40F in less than 2 hours. Great system.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I hope you also ordered the pressure kits and a couple of extra carb connectors for the collection container.

Are you using a fridge for temp control or will they be free standing?

I have 2 FermZillas with the TempTwister coils and thermoprobe. I also use heat tape with an Inkbird controller. I use them free standing with the KegLand jacket.

With a gycol system and the TempTwister, I can drop the temp for 60F to 40F in less than 2 hours. Great system.

I ordered the two of the pressure kits and two of BlowTie Diaphragm Spunding Valve kits.

However, the model I'm ordering ("FermZilla All Rounder Fermenter") doesn't have a collection container. It holds pressure and similar volume to your unit, but doesn't have the extra features of a conical.

I currently use a chest freezer for temperature control and these babies are short enough that they will actually fit! Having a pressurized vessel that fits in a chest freezer is a game changer.

If I didn't already have a chest fridge, I'd probably go the glycol route and go full conical. I don't harvest yeast, so the conical feature is not essential for my purposes. I'd rather also rather have less moving parts to deal with.

https://kegfactory.com/products/fermzilla-all-rounder-fermenter-7-9-gal-30-l

Have you experimented much with pressurized fermentation during the first few days or are you only pressurizing towards the tail end? Thinking for ales, i won't do any pressurizing until after initial ferment, but for lagers there could be benefit to do it up front. Do you have any tips on lager strains, temps, and pressures that worked well for you?

 

[Wayne1]

I have used SafLager 34/70 in a Baltic Porter and Mangrove Jack California Lager M54 in a Rauch. Both were fermented at 15 PSI and 64F. Fermentation was pretty much done in 3 days. I raised temp for diacetyl rest and then dropped to 40F and added finings.

I have fermented a Burton at ambient temps with S-04 and it was done in 3 days.

I have a West Coast IPA going right now under pressure at 15 PSI. It hit FG in three days. Raised temp for one day and then dropped it to 60 F. Pulled the yeast and added dry hops to the collection container. Two day later it is ready for the hops to be pulled. I lowered the temp to 40 F and I will pull the container tomorrow. I will then add finings. It should be ready to keg this weekend.

Good luck to you with your new purchase.

Cheers,
Wayne

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I have used SafLager 34/70 in a Baltic Porter and Mangrove Jack California Lager M54 in a Rauch. Both were fermented at 15 PSI and 64F. Fermentation was pretty much done in 3 days. I raised temp for diacetyl rest and then dropped to 40F and added finings.

I have fermented a Burton at ambient temps with S-04 and it was done in 3 days.

I have a West Coast IPA going right now under pressure at 15 PSI. It hit FG in three days. Raised temp for one day and then dropped it to 60 F. Pulled the yeast and added dry hops to the collection container. Two day later it is ready for the hops to be pulled. I lowered the temp to 40 F and I will pull the container tomorrow. I will then add finings. It should be ready to keg this weekend.

Good luck to you with your new purchase.

Cheers,
Wayne

Question for you about cold crashing in the fermentor. If the pressure is say at 30 PSI @ 70 degrees then I crash down to 35 will there be enough positive pressure after the temperature goes down, or would I need to hook up a CO2 tanks when crashing.

My only CO2 tank is in my keezer which I also use for pressure transfers, but my current setup doesn't allow for me to keep it hooked up with the fermentation fridge closed.

 

[Robert65]

Question for you about cold crashing in the fermentor. If the pressure is say at 30 PSI @ 70 degrees then I crash down to 35 will there be enough positive pressure after the temperature goes down, or would I need to hook up a CO2 tanks when crashing.

My only CO2 tank is in my keezer which I also use for pressure transfers, but my current setup doesn't allow for me to keep it hooked up with the fermentation fridge closed.

You'll have plenty of pressure. Look at a carbonation chart. Find the volumes of CO2 your beer is carbonated to at 70 degrees and 30 psig. Now find that same v/v of carbonation at 35 degrees and follow up to see the pressure. It shows something in the ballpark of 10-14 psi, I'm not looking but doing this off the top of my head. Anyway, you'd think it would drop to that pressure, probably your chosen serving pressure. But in fact it won't even drop that low; because you already have dissolved CO2 in the beer, it won't dissolve as much as quickly from the headspace as it cools. So you're good. Eventually you can bleed down to serving pressure before tapping, or just serve a couple without hooking up the gas until the keg drops to your intended serving pressure.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

You'll have plenty of pressure. Look at a carbonation chart. Find the volumes of CO2 your beer is carbonated to at 70 degrees and 30 psig. Now find that same v/v of carbonation at 35 degrees and follow up to see the pressure. It shows something in the ballpark of 10-14 psi, I'm not looking but doing this off the top of my head. Anyway, you'd think it would drop to that pressure, probably your chosen serving pressure. But in fact it won't even drop that low; because you already have dissolved CO2 in the beer, it won't dissolve as much as quickly from the headspace as it cools. So you're good. Eventually you can bleed down to serving pressure before tapping, or just serve a couple without hooking up the gas until the keg drops to your intended serving pressure.

That's what I thought but wasn't sure about it if no CO2 was already dissolved. Looking forward to having a pressurized fermentor I can finally cold crash in without introducing oxygen

 

[Robert65]

That's what I thought but wasn't sure about it if no CO2 was already dissolved. Looking forward to having a pressurized fermentor I can finally cold crash in without introducing oxygen

You did carbonate in the fermentor, right? Then you have dissolved CO2. Otherwise I misunderstood the question.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

You did carbonate in the fermentor, right? Then you have dissolved CO2. Otherwise I misunderstood the question.

I likely would set the spunding valve on the fermentor for at least a week at 30 PSI before crashing before crashing

All theoretical now as the fermentor won't be in stock until end of march

 

[Wayne1]

30 PSI would be on the very high side. I really would not ferment above 15-20. When I drop temp from 68 to 38F the pressure only reduces 5 PSI.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

30 PSI would be on the very high side. I really would not ferment above 15-20. When I drop temp from 68 to 38F the pressure only reduces 5 PSI.

Planning to ferment most ales with no pressure (or little pressure) for first 4 or 5 days, but then setting to 30 PSI only after most of fermentation has already taken place to carbonate.

Lagers or very clean ales I may experiment with higher pressure first few days, but yeah I wouldn't go higher than what you have indicated until most fermentation is already done

Is it a bad idea for me to set to 30 PSI during that later stage? Looking at a carbonation chart thought that looked like the range I should shoot for to hit desired volumes

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I hope you also ordered the pressure kits and a couple of extra carb connectors for the collection container.

Are you using a fridge for temp control or will they be free standing?

I have 2 FermZillas with the TempTwister coils and thermoprobe. I also use heat tape with an Inkbird controller. I use them free standing with the KegLand jacket.

With a gycol system and the TempTwister, I can drop the temp for 60F to 40F in less than 2 hours. Great system.

So long story short, the pandemic hit, I moved and am just experimenting with the fermzillas now. I have a glycol unit and the temptwister coils.

The issue I'm having is the damn thing keeps leaking at the threads where the temptwister is installed. I've used plumbers tape, keg lube, and am careful not to overtighten and strip the threads. I now have a pretty good seal with very minor leakage which is fine during active fermentation as the spunding valve loses pressure before the leak in the lid. However I'm very hesitant to cold crash in this thing after fermentation is complete.

If you can't tell I'm beyond frustrated with this!

Morebeer is sending me a replacement coil which is possibly the issue.

Do you have problems with leaks? Any advise? The connection seems so fragile that it seems bound to leak eventually even if I get a good seal.

When these units are available from clawhammer I'm thinking about upgrading and ditching the fermzilla. They are basically 6.5.gallom kegs with triclamp adapters at the top & a thermowell.

I'm already invested in a glycol unit though so would need to find a jacket that could fit this thing.

https://www.clawhammersupply.com/products/stainless-steel-keg-fermenter-6-5-gallon

 

[Wayne1]

A problem could be the lid. If you do not perfectly center the holes for the TempTwister, it could leak. I ended up buying the Twister Lid from Williams Brewing. They pre-drill the holes. Twister Lid

I use 90 degree DuoTight fittings from the coil to the glycol lines. I also use a quick disconnect in the glycol line so I can easily remove the fermenter for cleaning.

 

[Brooothru]

So long story short, the pandemic hit, I moved and am just experimenting with the fermzillas now. I have a glycol unit and the temptwister coils.

The issue I'm having is the damn thing keeps leaking at the threads where the temptwister is installed. I've used plumbers tape, keg lube, and am careful not to overtighten and strip the threads. I now have a pretty good seal with very minor leakage which is fine during active fermentation as the spunding valve loses pressure before the leak in the lid. However I'm very hesitant to cold crash in this thing after fermentation is complete.

If you can't tell I'm beyond frustrated with this!

Morebeer is sending me a replacement coil which is possibly the issue.

Do you have problems with leaks? Any advise? The connection seems so fragile that it seems bound to leak eventually even if I get a good seal.

When these units are available from clawhammer I'm thinking about upgrading and ditching the fermzilla. They are basically 6.5.gallom kegs with triclamp adapters at the top & a thermowell.

I'm already invested in a glycol unit though so would need to find a jacket that could fit this thing.

https://www.clawhammersupply.com/products/stainless-steel-keg-fermenter-6-5-gallon

The website lists a neoprene jacket for $44. This thing really looks neat. Just add a BrewStix and you've got yourself 90% of what a unitank does for half to a third of the price.

I may have to add one of these to the arsenal.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

A problem could be the lid. If you do not perfectly center the holes for the TempTwister, it could leak. I ended up buying the Twister Lid from Williams Brewing. They pre-drill the holes. Twister Lid

I use 90 degree DuoTight fittings from the coil to the glycol lines. I also use a quick disconnect in the glycol line so I can easily remove the fermenter for cleaning.

Adding a 90 degree connection may actually help.

This is what mine looks like. I do have QDs, but they aren't 90 degrees and the tubing definitely gets heavy and can put pressure on the threads if I'm not careful.

I have been zip tying them on the thermowell though to ensure gravity from those hose isn't adding too much pressure.

Thanks for this!

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

The website lists a neoprene jacket for $44. This thing really looks neat. Just add a BrewStix and you've got yourself 90% of what a unitank does for half to a third of the price.

I may have to add one of these to the arsenal.

The jacket on their website isn't glycol compatible I checked with them.

However, I did find this from another vendor that seems like it would work. It does say the working pressure for the glycol cannot exceed 8 psi.

Do you think the glycol icemaster max 2 working pressure is well below this?

https://www.gotta-brew.com/products/cool-zone-cooling-jacket.html