Can't even hit 70%

[Lodovico]

Damn it. I'm getting frustrated. Just brewed an American Stout that was supposed to start at 1.072 and I hit 1.067. I had the efficiency in my recipe set to 70%, so I'm not even hitting 70.

I think it's time to give fly sparging a try and see if that's the difference. I'm also starting to get VERY suspicious that it is the crush at my LHBS. When he was crushing this last batch for me, he even said that he thinks he might need to get some new rollers soon because they might be getting worn out.

Not exactly what you want to hear while he's crushing your grain.:cross:

Thoughts?

 

[Benjibbad]

If thats the case it could be the crush are you doing an iodine test?

 

[Orfy]

Lots of brewers are content with 65%+

consistency is more import then increases.

 

[Lodovico]

If thats the case it could be the crush are you doing an iodine test?

I don't know what this is, so no.

 

[KayaBrew]

HH, did you get tickets for any shows? We got Albany and Portland!!

I know, I know...

 

[Lodovico]

Lots of brewers are content with 65%+

consistency is more import then increases.

A fair point.

 

[Benjibbad]

An iodine test will tell you if you are getting full conversion from your mash. It's easy scoop out a small bit of mashed grain onto a paper plate or something and put a drop of iodine onto it, if it changes color you still have starch and need to continue mashing if not you have converted all the starched to sugars and you are ready to sparge. If you are getting a full conversion the next step is the sparging. How much water are you using? (I assume you are batch sparging) Are you mixing the graining again and letting them rest or draining right away? But again 65% is nothing to sneeze at my first batch was closer to 40%. It's all about a process which works for you.

 

[Lodovico]

HH, did you get tickets for any shows? We got Albany and Portland!!

I know, I know...

Got Albany. Wish I could do more like the old days but I'll enjoy Albany as much as possible:rockin:

 

[RichBrewer]

Give more details about your brew session. There could be a number of reasons your efficiency was low. I always suspect that not enough water was used. Especially with bigger grain bills.
As Orfy said, less than 70 percent is not necessarily a problem. Actually, the most important aspect of efficiency is consistency. It is really no big deal if you are hitting 65 percent every time. You can increase the grain bill to compensate. It really doesn't cost much more for the extra grain.

 

[jmo88]

I was in the same boat as you for a year. Consistent but between 57and 62. The two best changes I made to my process is building a cpvc manifold to replace my ss braid which enabled me to effectively do Biermuncher's hybrid fly sparge technique (don't try it with a ss braid). Also, if you are brewing a stout with soft water and not properly adjusting the alkalinity -- your efficiency will suffer. The flavor will also suffer in this case. There are so many elements to efficiency that the best advice is to change one thing at a time in your process to understand the effect of each change on your extract and lauter efficiency.

 

[jamest22]

I regularly get 65% efficiency with my setup. I batch sparge and in my opinion the ease and convenience of batch sparging outweigh the slightly increased efficiency of fly sparging. Let alone the increased risk of tannin extraction associated with fly sparging. Sure, I wish my efficiency was better, but as long as your efficiency is predictable and relatively acceptable (> 60% ?) you can adjust your recipe appropriately to get your OG where you want it to be. In the end, a 10% decreased efficiency will only cost you a few dollars worth of additional grain.

In my opinion, there are much more important things than efficiency like sanitation and temperature control. So, do not get too worked up about it, just learn what your efficiency is on your setup and plan for it.

 

[RichBenn]

If you are currently doing batch, crush your own grains! Then crush finer! I went from under 70(store crush) to over 70 with my first Corona mill crush(adjusted loosely). I've since adjusted for a finer crush, and can't wait to mash. I'll probably stop at the crush I now have, and then lock in the efficiency.

Personally, I don't see the need to go to fly sparging, unless you just "want" to. Once you get dialed in, why bother changing? You'll have to start getting the process down all over again.

 

[McKBrew]

My vote is on the crush. If the guy crushing your grain isn't confident of his crusher, then it's cause for concern.

A barley crusher or other grain mill makes a difference. I average above 75% eff now, every time I brew since getting my own mill.

 

[jmo88]

Crush has never made a difference for me. Which eventually led me to changing how I lautered. That said, change your crush. It'll at least give you one more clue about your process. Again, change something new every time and little by little the efficiency will change and clue you into the method that works best for you. People say that you should be comfortable with consistency even at 65%, but I am always feel a little inadequate when I can't get it up. Go ahead, quote me on that.

 

[passedpawn]

1st, and foremost, don't sweat the efficiency. If it is always the same, at least you can dial in a recipe. Concentrate on making good beer.

Some ideas to improve efficiency:

• More water / thinner mash.
• 90 min mash.
• Check your thermometer. Mash at 150.
• You can easily hit 85% batch sparging. Stick with that. Mill twice. Flour isn't so bad with batch sparging. Vorlauf well.
• Make sure your recipe contains a majority of a higly-modified grain (i.e., diastatic power > 120 L). Most pale or pilsner malt is this way. Darker kilned malts, and wheat to some extent, present problems here. If you are trying to make a beer with 100% Munich 20L, you would have a problem.
• When sparging, add your sparge water at 170F, then stir, and let it rest a couple of minutes.

Iodine test is fun, but might not help you improve your efficiency. I usually do one, but I do it out of habit cause it always returns positive.

BTW, I used to use a big rolling pin to crush grain. Not the easiest way, but it works. [I have a big mill now.]

 

[scinerd3000]

An iodine test will tell you if you are getting full conversion from your mash. It's easy scoop out a small bit of mashed grain onto a paper plate or something and put a drop of iodine onto it, if it changes color you still have starch and need to continue mashing if not you have converted all the starched to sugars and you are ready to sparge.

generally you dont want to get any grain particals in when your testing with iodine or you will get a false positive. If any particals of the endosperm of the seed (white part) you will get a starch positive pretty much no matter what.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/why-isnt-iodine-test-defacto-standard-mash-time-114441/index4.html

 

[BrewBrain]

I've tried everything and I get 68% on average. It turns out I still brew better beer than I can buy and have a garage full of poker playing beer snobs that can't wait to get at my taps every couple months. Adjust your recipes for your number and screw 70%+ IMO.

I mean, no harm in trying to improve in any aspect of brewing, but I now worry more about the problems that can affect flavor, head retention, appearance, smell, etc....

 

[passedpawn]

FWIW, I used to do 70% and now I always do 85%. Can't tell you which thing made that happen because my system is always changing. Might be the pump or the mill.

 

[mrk305]

It probably is the crush. Your LHBS probably does need new rollers. Buy another pound of grains and don't worry about it, or do like I do and buy two extra pounds of grains and don't worry about it.

Your other options would be to buy online from a better suplier and pay shipping or spend the big bucks on a crusher. Grains are cheap.

 

[frogfree]

Recommend looking at this to help you understand possible places of where you are losing efficiency.
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

This link helps you troubleshoot efficiency problems
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

 

[The Pol]

I agree with the posts that say you need to figure out where the problem is, before you start shooting in the dark.

You need to check your conversion eff. Trouble shoot that if need be.

Then check your lauter eff. Trouble shoot that if need be.

Between the two, you will find the bottle neck in your process that is witholding all of those sugars.

I agree that chasing greater eff. is not a goal, but learning where and why you are losing eff. will only make you a better and more consistent brewer.

Good luck

 

[bob1852]

I agree with the posts that say you need to figure out where the problem is, before you start shooting in the dark.

You need to check your conversion eff. Trouble shoot that if need be.

Then check your lauter eff. Trouble shoot that if need be.

Between the two, you will find the bottle neck in your process that is witholding all of those sugars.

I agree that chasing greater eff. is not a goal, but learning where and why you are losing eff. will only make you a better and more consistent brewer.

Good luck

+ 1 million.....

isolate your issue - and start with a couple basics:

1) how are measuring volume? is it accurate? I hope you're not using the pre-fab marks on Ale Pails

2) are your thermometers accurate?

3) are your gravity measurements accurate, and temp corrected if need be?

4) finally, and like Pol said - check your conversion efficiency (if you're only converting 80%, it doesn't matter much what your lauter efficiency is)

5) look for where you're losing points - incomplete draining of mash tuns, kettle loss, trub loss, etc.

 

[OLDBREW]

the guys that claim to get high efficiency batch sparging, are crushing the malt to a point where they get a lot of flour, or they sparge with more water then boil down. the latter you need to keep an eye on the ph of the runoff like you would if you were fly sparging.

 

[Orfy]

Base line is that 65% plus is respectable. Anything below that and you are doing something wrong.

 

[RunBikeBrew]

I made three changes that upped my effiencies from low 60's to mid 70's:

1. Crush my own grains (finer crush with Corona knock-off)

2. Add Buffer 5.2

3. Increase batch sparge temps (using Bobby M's no mash-out double batch sparge technique)

This gets me repeatable 73% efficiency. Which I'm pleased with (especially the "repeatable" part, another 1lb of grain is cheap!).

 

[The Pol]

The crush and mash thickness added about 14% on my system.

I crush at .035" and mash at 2qt/lb. Basically my losses were conversion losses, the starches werent getting converted. So by increasing my mash water volume, I reduced my sparge water volume (this is good in terms of pH) and increased my eff.

 

[Brewenstein]

My first couple of AG batches were at 66% and 68% eff. I bought grains at the my LHBS and had them crushed there. Then I began buying from Brewmasters Warehouse and had Ed crush the grain. My eff. jumped to 82-85% and has stayed there. In fact, I actually began to increase my volumes so that I wasn't overshooting my gravities so much. So now I get more beer for the same amount of grain . BTW I double batch sparge. So the point of all this is - try a different crush first. And no matter what you do, only change one thing at a time. Good luck.

 

[humann_brewing]

I think as long as you are consistent, it doesn't matter what the number is.

 

[The Pol]

I think as long as you are consistent, it doesn't matter what the number is.

True, but it is harder to be consistent if you dont know what is going on in the mash or sparge.

 

[humann_brewing]

True, but it is harder to be consistent if you dont know what is going on in the mash or sparge.

I guess I didn't read enough, yes that is very true too.

 

[Lodovico]

Wow. So many helpful posts here. Thanks everyone.

 

[Hotspur]

First: Change only one thing at a time, and do a couple of brews before changing something else.

I had a massive increase in efficiency when I switched to buying my grain in bulk and got a Barley Crusher. I'm using the stock gap and a 7amp drill, and just go slow and steady. Last four beers have been about 95% efficiency. And that's with batch sparging. The mill at my LHBS is pretty loose, and I don't think it's a variable speed drill powering it, so while it's consistent, it's highly inefficient.

 

[bdnoona]

I had a similar problem. I used to get 67% eff, though previously I had occassionally gotten higher eff using the LHBS crush. Fed up with a poor crush I bought a Barley Crusher and hand cranked at factory settings for a batch on Saturday. My eff on Saturday was 86%!!!

Look at the HBT wiki on grain crush. The pics show a lot of flour. My LHBS crush didn't have much flour at all. After crushing on Saturday at home, my grist had a lot more flour that I was used to seeing. No problem sparging though, and a lot better eff. I'm very happy now.

 

[RichBenn]

I had a similar problem. I used to get 67% eff, though previously I had occassionally gotten higher eff using the LHBS crush. Fed up with a poor crush I bought a Barley Crusher and hand cranked at factory settings for a batch on Saturday. My eff on Saturday was 86%!!!

Look at the HBT wiki on grain crush. The pics show a lot of flour. My LHBS crush didn't have much flour at all. After crushing on Saturday at home, my grist had a lot more flour that I was used to seeing. No problem sparging though, and a lot better eff. I'm very happy now.

There is so much "fear" of crushing too fine. But batch sparging with a stainless mesh tube changed the sparging rules. You need a smaller crush and more flour is OK. At least that's what the experienced users of this type of system echo over and over......

Home brew shops have to have a crush that works for "all" systems, not just the stainless tube mesh batch sparging system or BIAB. So it's not surprising, if one thinks of it, that their crushes are on the conservative side....

 

[Scooby_Brew]

Can't even hit 70%

What's wrong with 65% or 60%? Why are so many people obsessed with these numbers? Just add an extra pound of base malt to your recipe and you good to go. RDWHAHB.

 

[passedpawn]

What's wrong with 65% or 60%? Why are so many people obsessed with these numbers? Just add an extra pound of base malt to your recipe and you good to go. RDWHAHB.

Uh, everyone here is obsessed. (I agree with the sentiment, but really, aren't we all a bit over-the-top here?)

 

[Orfy]

There is absolutley nothing wrong with wanting to increase efficiency. That's pretty normal.

It;s just not a big deal.

 

[Catt22]

What's wrong with 65% or 60%? Why are so many people obsessed with these numbers? Just add an extra pound of base malt to your recipe and you good to go. RDWHAHB.

+1 High efficiency numbers are over rated IMO. It's not a competition and the reward is rather meager. Most of the time I don't believe the reported very high efficiency numbers anyway. I've learned to increase my batch sizes which gives me wiggle room during the boil to make adjustments when needed to hit my target gravities. I'm much more interested in making good beer than I am in making good numbers.

 

[The Pol]

Well, the great thing about knowing your eff, knowing the eff of the mash and lauter etc... is actually having an understanding of what you are doing.

Anyone can shoot in the dark, but the benefit I have seen from tracking eff. and understanding what my eff is and why it is there, is repeatability. Along with understanding why I have the #'s that I have, has come an increase in eff. of course. Once you see that you are only converting 80% of your mash, well then you typically correct that process.

I dont think people chase numbers as much as thier eff. increases as they begin to better understand what they are doing when brewing. Anyone can mix water and grain and make oatmeal. It takes a different individual to understand enzyme activity etc. and make the process work for them, instead of them working for the process.

My eff. isnt HIGH, but I have achieved 82-83% on each batch for the past year. Understanding my eff. and removing the barriers that I had previously, made my system much more consistent, which is what most people are looking for. Just saying, they go hand in hand.

The funny thing is that I have never seen anyone make eff. a competition here on HBT, though inevitably when these threads pop up, that statement is made more than once. Who has ever made it a competition? IF a dude wants to better his eff. because that is a challenge for him and he enjoys tweaking the process, why do all the haters have to jump on thier keyboards?

Haters.

 

[The Pol]

What's wrong with 65% or 60%? Why are so many people obsessed with these numbers? Just add an extra pound of base malt to your recipe and you good to go. RDWHAHB.

I dunno, it is his hobby, maybe he wants to learn about the science behind what he is actually doing and likes to tweak things and tinker... I dunno, it is his hobby.

Just because your eff. is low, doesnt mean you make good beer either, it can still be swill. I hear that argument all the time in these threads too. Maybe he is concerned about making great beer AND bettering his process, so what? Gees guys.