Can't Control Power To Element

[riverbeer]

I cannot control power to element. Thought SSR was bad, replaced with new SSR.
PID is cycling SSR, but it is not cycling element. Full power to element all the time. When I power off PID, I still have 120V coming out of SSR to element.
I have checked my wiring til I'm blue in the face, everything looks good to me. I am beyond befuddled. Any suggestions?

 

[Maxkling]

http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsletters/Solid Statements - Bench Test an SSR.pdf

 

[brew_ny]

When I power off PID, I still have 120V coming out of SSR to element.

are you sure it is coming out of the SSR and not coming from the power coming in going to the element ?

if you take the wire off wires off the side of the SSR that is the input from the PID do you still have power going to the element?

if so I would guess the power is coming from some place other them the SSR

good luck it can drive you crazy

S_M

 

[riverbeer]

http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsletters/Solid Statements - Bench Test an SSR.pdf

Thanks, hooked bulb to old SSR, it came on as soon as I powered 120V without battery connected, so it's burnt. Connected bulb to new SSR (it's installed) powered on PID and bulb started flashing in cycle.
I guess this is the only way to test SSR. When I put voltmeter to output of SSR
even with PID shut down it still shows 120V, which I now see is not accurate.
I wanted to ensure everything was right before I reassembled the control box
It looks like it's working right ,so I'm going to try a run.riverbeer

 

[dcbw]

SSRs will pass voltage even when "off", but only pass current when "on". Since the current does the actual work, it all happens like it should despite your meter showing 120V. Which means you need to test them with a load, hence why the light bulb is required.

So, if you hook up a light bulb and it cycles the right way, then you have correctly hooked up the PID and SSR. The problem is somewhere between the SSR and the element.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's very tough to troubleshoot wiring based on blurry low res pictures. Do you have a wiring diagram you followed?

 

[kal]

Use the following logic to troubleshoot (a cut & paste from what I sometimes send people):

Control from the PID to the heating element goes like this:

PID -> SSR -> ELEMENT SELECT SWITCH -> RELAY (BOIL or HLT) -> ELEMENT

(note: You may not have the element select switch or the relay)

While the below deals with the element not coming on, the logic holds true of the element is always on too (just do the reverse):

When the PID is sending a signal to turn on the element, the PID "OUT" light should be on. If it isn't on and you expect it to be, stop there and look in the PID for the problem. The settings may be incorrect, the temperature may be set too low, or you may be using it incorrectly.

If the PID "OUT" light is on then the SSR should be receiving a signal and turning on too. If the SSR light isn't on (assuming there is one) then there's an issue either in the PID output connector (PID is defective), in the wiring between the PID and the SSR (check your wiring), or the SSR is defective. To troubleshoot a possibly defective PID or SSR, swap it with another PID or SSR.

If the SSR light is on but there's no heat at the element, then either the relay between the SSR and the element isn't closed, or there's a problem with the element, or the wiring between the SSR -> ELEMENT SELECT SWITCH / RELAY -> ELEMENT is incorrect, or the ELEMENT SELECT SWITCH or relay is defective. It is also possible that the element itself is defective. Switching the ELEMENT SELECT SWITCH to either on position should make the corresponding RELAY close with an audible 'clunk' - if it doesn't check your ELEMENT SELECT SWITCH wiring.

Using a voltmeter to measure for 240V at the various points along the chain can help troubleshoot the issue.

Refer to the owners manuals of the individual parts for further troubleshooting. The PID manuals are especially useful as they contain further troubleshooting tips.

Good luck!

Kal

 

[riverbeer]

Thank you for your help, as always the knowledge offered by this forum is amazing. Yes, my SSR was fried. All is well now with new SSR. Upgraded to a higher current SSR. As you know they like to melt down in the open position. Unless you have an alarm or paying real close attention to your temps, things can get out of control real quick when this happens.
What I want to do is put a 220V indicator light on top of my box, so I can see the element cycling from everywhere in my shop. I might put one at the other of my shop, just cause I can. I don't have an alarm and don't feel like wiring one,but I've got a handful 220V indicator lights layin around I've need to do something with.
Here's Sir PJ's wiring diagram that I based my controller on, with a 220V indicator light added before the outlet to the element. Does this look okay with ya'll, I want the pros opinion before I open my box. I thought I was done ,but after this episode apparently I'm not, so I'm ready to feel I'm finished with it and hopefully this will be it.

 

[kal]

As you know they like to melt down in the open position.

I think you mean closed.

I can't make out the details in the wiring diagram, but if you want to add a light to show when the element is on, simply wire a 220-240V light in parallel to the heating element HOT lines. It'll then receive power whenever the element is on.

Kal

 

[P-J]

...
Here's Sir PJ's wiring diagram that I based my controller on, with a 220V indicator light added before the outlet to the element.
...

The way you have it wired I think is not correct. Your added switch interupts the entire element circuit not just the indicator light. (Edit: - OR just wire it as Kal suggested - no additional switch needed.)

Try this version and as always click on the image to see and save a fullscale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



Hope this helps.

 

[riverbeer]

Yes sir, thank you. I hope you are well. riverbeer

 

[riverbeer]

Bought this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181324129465?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Connected per Mr. PJ's diagram, minus the switch.
The lamp stays on when PID is cycling ,it won't go out.
Connected lite bulb to PID side of switch and it blinks with PID cycle.
What have I done now? Are these the wrong lamps?

 

[P-J]

Connected per Mr. PJ's diagram, minus the switch.
The lamp stays on when PID is cycling ,it won't go out.
Connected lite bulb to PID side of switch and it blinks with PID cycle.
What have I done now? Are these the wrong lamps?

You say "Connected per Mr. PJ's diagram, minus the switch" and the lamp stays on...
Then you say "Connected lite bulb to PID side of switch and it blinks with PID cycle" .. If you did not install the switch.. How did you connect it - ????

 

[lschiavo]

The switch turns off the false indication of current flow at the output of the SSR. Why is anyone suggesting a lamp of any sort monitoring the SSR output? I thought we all knew that SSRs are leaky and will give a false reading in most cases. If you need a light, monitor the DC input to the SSR. That will tell you that your controls are calling for heat. If you get hot water, it's working.

 

[P-J]

The switch turns off the false indication of current flow at the output of the SSR. Why is anyone suggesting a lamp of any sort monitoring the SSR output? I thought we all knew that SSRs are leaky and will give a false reading in most cases. If you need a light, monitor the DC input to the SSR. That will tell you that your controls are calling for heat. If you get hot water, it's working.

Wait... Wait ... The diagram I drew shows the indicator light wired across the heating element directly. It is NOT showing the function of the SSR but monitoring the power delivered to the element...!!!.

 

[P-J]

Wait... Wait ... The diagram I drew shows the indicator light wired across the heating element directly. It is NOT showing the function of the SSR but monitoring the power delivered to the element...!!!.

Another thought on this... IF the element is not wired up an in place the indicator light could show a false result. The element should be in place and pluged it.!

 

[jeffmeh]

Yes, wire the led in parallel with the element, and don’t expect it to function properly until the element is plugged in and providing resistance.

 

[riverbeer]

Thanks, guys. Maybe one day I'll get it thru my head that an SSR has to have a load to be tested.
The reason I want to monitor the SSR ,I had one fry and the temp ran wild.
I use my PID's to control the boil in manual in certain cases. No thermo probe in this loop, so I didn't know temp was out of control til I had a boil over.

 

[bsperr]

I think using the indicator light as PJ has recommended (wired directly across the contactor powering the element) is still the way to go and how I do it. The PID will tell you when it is signalling the SSR to fire the element (at least the Auber one will) and the indicator light will tell you when the element is receiving power. As long as these two sync up you know you don't have a problem. When you're running in manual mode, you'll also know there's a problem if the indicator light doesn't ever go off (unless you're running 100% for some reason).

 

[stlbeer]

I think using the indicator light as PJ has recommended (wired directly across the contactor powering the element) is still the way to go and how I do it. The PID will tell you when it is signalling the SSR to fire the element (at least the Auber one will) and the indicator light will tell you when the element is receiving power. As long as these two sync up you know you don't have a problem. When you're running in manual mode, you'll also know there's a problem if the indicator light doesn't ever go off (unless you're running 100% for some reason).

This. It's how mine are wired it it works just as stated (so long as the elements are plugged in). Heck, even if the elements aren't plugged in you can see when the LED is bright and 1/2 bright.