Can you leave elements submerged overnight?

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grathan

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I'm having troubles with gfci breaker tripping out. It worked at first, then I left it overnight with the kettle full of hot soapy water to clean the new element, but the next day it won't fire without tripping.

I have tested the element and each lug to ground and the wire it's hooked to and the outlet. All test fine and nothing is loose or comes close to making accidental contact.


Can an element go bad by sitting in water over night?
 
There is no GFCI on my water heater. There are two thermostats, the upper one either turning on the element, or delivering power to the lower thermostat for the lower element. The schematic in the installation book shows no GFCI.

Never have seen one on any water heater.
 
yeah, everything i'm finding even on the webs have no info on internal GFCI, everything i can find about GFCI and water heaters is ones they are plugged into
 
WI_Wino said:
Water heaters have internal GFCIs so you don't need a GFCI outlet.
Click to expand...

Ha ha....never seen a water heater with a gfci. You would think they would require them though, or at least the breaker feeding it at the main panel.

I left my element submerged a couple nights and the base of the element started to rust. Galvanic reaction. Water heaters are different animals and have things called sacrificial anodes.
 
There is substaintial rust just from leaving it overnight the one time...

My hot water tank is probably going on 20 years and the anode long gone.. wonder if the element base can rust right off and cause a leak there?

Another question while on this topic....

If a 5500w 250v element needs 21 amps, how does my hot water tank run 2 of them on a 30 amp circuit???



Also why don't people just ground their brewstands instead of buying expensive gfci breakers?
 
grathan said:
There is substaintial rust just from leaving it overnight the one time...

My hot water tank is probably going on 20 years and the anode long gone.. wonder if the element base can rust right off and cause a leak there?

Another question while on this topic....

If a 5500w 250v element needs 21 amps, how does my hot water tank run 2 of them on a 30 amp circuit???

Also why don't people just ground their brewstands instead of buying expensive gfci breakers?
Click to expand...

You could still get shocked with grounding. GFCI is a little more..."inteligent".

You better put a new anode in. They are there so your tank or elements don't rust out. The point of them is that its a lot easier and cheaper to replace a single anode then a whole new heater. Usually you access them from the top of the water heater.
 
I was thinking whole new unit. My electric usage jumped %30 in 2007 and hasn't come back since.
 
kevreh said:
Ha ha....never seen a water heater with a gfci. You would think they would require them though, or at least the breaker feeding it at the main panel.

I left my element submerged a couple nights and the base of the element started to rust. Galvanic reaction. Water heaters are different animals and have things called sacrificial anodes.
Click to expand...


Sadly there are no affordable stainless based elements for us brewers. Most of us use high temp silicone to seal the base up so we don't have to worry about rusting.
 
grathan said:
There is substaintial rust just from leaving it overnight the one time...

My hot water tank is probably going on 20 years and the anode long gone.. wonder if the element base can rust right off and cause a leak there?

Another question while on this topic....

If a 5500w 250v element needs 21 amps, how does my hot water tank run 2 of them on a 30 amp circuit???



Also why don't people just ground their brewstands instead of buying expensive gfci breakers?
Click to expand...
They are wired in series. The top one takes precedence because that is where the hot water comes out. Once the top thermostat is satisfied it provides power to the bottom. It turns on if needed. Once the top cools off, like you are in the shower, it takes control back and kicks on the top element.
 
Bensiff said:
Sadly there are no affordable stainless based elements for us brewers. Most of us use high temp silicone to seal the base up so we don't have to worry about rusting.
Click to expand...

Not to mention a high strength silicone like the rtv100 ones out there. Used to hold glass fish tanks together. I used the rtv100 to seal between my element and nut, and also as another layer of protection between my kettle and electric box holding my element. Much better than the ge stuff at home depot.
 
Hermit said:
They are wired in series. The top one takes precedence because that is where the hot water comes out. Once the top thermostat is satisfied it provides power to the bottom. It turns on if needed. Once the top cools off, like you are in the shower, it takes control back and kicks on the top element.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. I have read a fair bit about troubleshooting and no articles have mentioned this yet. :mug:
 
Rivenin said:
the unit maybe stainless, but i highly doubt the base is
Click to expand...

Umm, did you even click on the link? It seems obvious by the picture that the only part that could be stainless is the base. They offer a 12 year warranty on the water heaters with the stainless elements.
 
**update**

Minor progress today. Ripped everything apart and rewired using 12ga instead of 8ga. Problem with tripping out persisted. BUT. I had a thought to try removing my ground wire from the kettle. And the tripping stopped. So now I just need to figure out if I need that ground wire or not, and if so where I went wrong wiring it up. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


The details of my ground is 200 amp panel in the main house uses a 100 amp breaker to feed the garage panel. (4 strand with ground going back to 100 amp breaker in 200 amp panel). And then the kettle gets hooked to the ground lug on the 50 amp gfci in the 100 amp panel.
 
grathan said:
**update**

Minor progress today. Ripped everything apart and rewired using 12ga instead of 8ga. Problem with tripping out persisted. BUT. I had a thought to try removing my ground wire from the kettle. And the tripping stopped. So now I just need to figure out if I need that ground wire or not, and if so where I went wrong wiring it up. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


The details of my ground is 200 amp panel in the main house uses a 100 amp breaker to feed the garage panel. (4 strand with ground going back to 100 amp breaker in 200 amp panel). And then the kettle gets hooked to the ground lug on the 50 amp gfci in the 100 amp panel.
Click to expand...

Reattach the ground wire to the pot. That's not the problem, that's the solution. Find the short in your system.
 
grathan said:
**update**

Minor progress today. Ripped everything apart and rewired using 12ga instead of 8ga. Problem with tripping out persisted. BUT. I had a thought to try removing my ground wire from the kettle. And the tripping stopped. So now I just need to figure out if I need that ground wire or not, and if so where I went wrong wiring it up. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


The details of my ground is 200 amp panel in the main house uses a 100 amp breaker to feed the garage panel. (4 strand with ground going back to 100 amp breaker in 200 amp panel). And then the kettle gets hooked to the ground lug on the 50 amp gfci in the 100 amp panel.
Click to expand...

I assume that it trips with the element turned on - that would point out a leaky element to me. Do you have a spare element you could swap it out?
 
I think it's the element as well. Shame I haven't even used it yet. I only have an extra 120v element to test with atm.. My Fluke meter crapped out just as I was testing the element. I have a cheap one, but it showed infinite ohms on each terminal to ground.

What do you guys think of this idea....

Instead of gfci breaker I go back to regular breaker. attach kettle to ground with an amp meter inline to tell how bad I get zapped if I touch the kettle?
 
grathan said:
There is substaintial rust just from leaving it overnight the one time...

My hot water tank is probably going on 20 years and the anode long gone.. wonder if the element base can rust right off and cause a leak there?

Another question while on this topic....

If a 5500w 250v element needs 21 amps, how does my hot water tank run 2 of them on a 30 amp circuit???



Also why don't people just ground their brewstands instead of buying expensive gfci breakers?
Click to expand...




The control circuit for a water heater only operates one element at a time. Top element on or bottom element on, but not at the same time.

People should be grounding their brew stands, particularly the electric kettles. Grounding brewing gear, and using a GFCI makes your system as safe as it can be, short of leaving it turned off.
 
grathan said:
**update**

Minor progress today. Ripped everything apart and rewired using 12ga instead of 8ga. Problem with tripping out persisted. BUT. I had a thought to try removing my ground wire from the kettle. And the tripping stopped. So now I just need to figure out if I need that ground wire or not, and if so where I went wrong wiring it up. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


The details of my ground is 200 amp panel in the main house uses a 100 amp breaker to feed the garage panel. (4 strand with ground going back to 100 amp breaker in 200 amp panel). And then the kettle gets hooked to the ground lug on the 50 amp gfci in the 100 amp panel.
Click to expand...


Why rewire from 8 to 12? If you are using a 5500w element you should be running a 30 amp breaker which means at least a 10 gauge wire. As far as your previous question about doing away with a gfci and grounding the brewstand, that will work to trip the breaker if there is a leak; but that doesn't save you. The gfci is designed to protect people where as the standard breaker protects equipment. If you are tripping while there is a ground you have a problem that you need to resolve. Simply doing away with the ground is putting you at serious risk as 20+ amps grounding through you when something goes wrong can easily kill you.
 
I went from 8 to 12 because of how stiff the 8ga wire is and how poorly made receptacles are for 8 gauge are and also just because it was easier to hook up. It may not be permanent, it's only like 5' and while getting slightly warm in the time it takes to heat strike water it never gets hot.

If the amp meter showed 20 amps I wouldn't touch the kettle. Perhaps instead of an amp meter, I could put a light bulb. The brighter it gets the hotter the ground leak is...
Basically for right now, since I have no way of measuring the ground leak with gfci protection, I turn the kettle on by breaker, avoid the kettle and turn off the breaker when it starts to steam.
 
Oy vey. This sounds sketchy. Few things;

- If you use stranded wire it will be easier to work with, much more flexible. Based on your comment above you are/were using solid.
- Fix the problem (gfci tripping), don't work around it by "avoiding the kettle"
- This shouldn't be hard to test with a multimeter. With no power to your system, check for continuity between the hots and ground. Since your tripping your breaker there SHOULD be continuity somewhere. Look for any places where the wires could be touching or arcing (very close but not touching). Selectively disconect wiring and test till you find out where the issue is.
- As others have said the brew kettle HAS to be grounded. Disconnecting your ground to kettle is like disconnecting your cars airbag because you don't want it to go off in a bad accident.

Please post pics so we can help you and possibly spot any other issues.
 
I didn't realize it before, but the clamp-on amp meter I recently got does ohms. So I did a quick test on the outlet prongs. Just over 2 megaohms from each hot to brewstand. IS it possible to convert that to electric flow? for example would it be linear like the 5500 watt element is 10 ohms and draws 22 amps so 10 goes into 2000 200 times, so 22 amps divided by 200 would be 0.1 amps leaking to the brewstand?
 
grathan said:
I didn't realize it before, but the clamp-on amp meter I recently got does ohms. So I did a quick test on the outlet prongs. Just over 2 megaohms from each hot to brewstand. IS it possible to convert that to electric flow? for example would it be linear like the 5500 watt element is 10 ohms and draws 22 amps so 10 goes into 2000 200 times, so 22 amps divided by 200 would be 0.1 amps leaking to the brewstand?
Click to expand...

240VAC / 2M = 0.1mA.

GFCI's will not trip at currents less than 4mA. So, that resistance isn't causing the problem.

However, the power is AC. Your meter is measuring DC resistance. It's possible that there is enough capacitance in there to cause the failure.

Try momentarily (!) bypassing your GFCI and use your clamp-on ammeter to measure the current in the ground wire from the kettle. If it is greater than 4mA (0.004 amps) then you've verified that's where the problem is.
 
You can imagine as an appliance repairman I learned to hate GFCI. Some of the earliest attempts to use electronics in ranges to replace thermostats were scrapped because fluorescent lights (ballasts?) caused all sorts of trouble.
 
So we never really discussed why hot water heaters don't need gfci. Any ideas?
 
Check out this thread for a humorous read (it gets pretty heated):

http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/wh...e-gfci-breakers-electric-water-heaters-65559/

Seems like the conclusion is a) the water heater elements are protected by the ground back to the panel, b) most plumbing systems have the metal pipes grounded as well, and c) water isn't as conductive as other things (ie. ground pipes).

But hey, its one thread. I get the feeling that the point of gfci's is to protect humans from making human mistakes, whereas a water heater is professionally installed and grounded. In the electric brewing world, generally speaking having a proper ground is safe. The point of gfci is an extra level of insurance considering we're wiring things that are exposed to a wet environment. I doubt that craft breweries that use electric for heating use gfci. OTOH they have strict local and state safety codes they have to comply with, not to mention the inspections that go along with them.

Now stop worrying about water heaters and address the problem you have. :D
 
It's probably because of all the reasons listed above...plus it's a piece of stationary equipment. Equipment does use gfci, especially industrial stuff but it is design to protect wiring, etc. from overcurrent/damage and it trips far above 5 miliamps which is considered the lethal current exposure for humans.
 
Hermit said:
They are wired in series. The top one takes precedence because that is where the hot water comes out. Once the top thermostat is satisfied it provides power to the bottom. It turns on if needed. Once the top cools off, like you are in the shower, it takes control back and kicks on the top element.
Click to expand...

You got it right except the series part. The elements are wired parallel but controlled just as you described.
 
grathan said:
So we never really discussed why hot water heaters don't need gfci. Any ideas?
Click to expand...

First off, it is a cold water heater. If the water were already hot we would have no reason to heat it. "Water heater" works for me;)

I think it was said but a water heater is an appliance. It is tucked away in a utility room or basement and is rarely even touched. Metal water lines are the best source of ground in a house. They are a required electrode when available. A properly bonded/grounded water heater poses no risk because it IS "ground". It should be the point that your GFCI receptacles use as reference.
 
lschiavo said:
First off, it is a cold water heater. If the water were already hot we would have no reason to heat it. "Water heater" works for me;)

I think it was said but a water heater is an appliance. It is tucked away in a utility room or basement and is rarely even touched. Metal water lines are the best source of ground in a house. They are a required electrode when available. A properly bonded/grounded water heater poses no risk because it IS "ground". It should be the point that your GFCI receptacles use as reference.
Click to expand...

Metallic water lines are a good electrical ground because they are required by code to be bonded to the power company ground rod, usually at the meter, and not because they come by it naturally.

Were it not for being bonded back to the power utility ground rod, they might, or might not, be a good, reliable earth ground.

This bonding is done to prevent water lines from accidentally being energized if they were to make contact with an energized conductor anywhere in the home.

Having electrically energized plumbing fixtures is a definite health hazard, which is why they are required to be grounded.

PEX, PVC, or other plastic plumbing systems are treated differently.

Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about cold water heaters?:)
 
processhead said:
Metallic water lines are a good electrical ground because they are required by code to be bonded to the power company ground rod, usually at the meter, and not because they come by it naturally.

Were it not for being bonded back to the power utility ground rod, they might, or might not, be a good, reliable earth ground.

This bonding is done to prevent water lines from accidentally being energized if they were to make contact with an energized conductor anywhere in the home.

Having electrically energized plumbing fixtures is a definite health hazard, which is why they are required to be grounded.

PEX, PVC, or other plastic plumbing systems are treated differently.

Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about cold water heaters?:)
Click to expand...

Around here at least, the power company does not provide a ground. Only two hots and a neutral. Ground is established at every service by bonding the neutral to water lines, ground rods, ground rings and such. A buried metal water line sometimes hundreds of feet long is about the best ground you can find. Bonding the neutral ties the three wire system to a reference point for that service entrance hence the safety benefits you mention.
 

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