My gut instinct is that you'd want to be on the upper end of the midrange... say 155 or so. But there are a lot of reasons why you shouldn't listen to me, chief among them being that I have yet to brew a batch of this clone.
stonebrewer said:We've been kicking around the idea of doing a two stage mash, mashing at 145 for 40-50 minutes and then at 155 for 10-20. Thought here is to have beta work hard for most of the mash and then let alpha get a crack at the remaining sugars, making a more complex wort with some of the residual sweetness which is evident in this beer. Stone advertises that they mash at 156 for their PA which this is based on, but perhaps when they "screwed up" and made AB, they ended up lower and then raised it when they realized it and went "Wow! this is good!". Dunno but it is worth a shot and is how I plan to do my next batch. Using the same technique to do a Double Jack clone this weekend...
stonebrewer said:Here's what I do for 10G as far as Chinook hops are concerned and I think they are spot on with the real deal:
1.5 oz FWH
1.5 oz @ 90
1 oz @ 20
0.5 oz @ 15, 10, 5, 0
I do not dry hop this. It comes out nice and bitter, but a little smoother from splitting the 90/FWH addition.
reuliss: I am keenly interested in your results...you are planning on doing more or less what I plan next time I brew this. Double Jack getting done today, though.
TD: when I did the side by side I was really surprised at how far off I was as I went in thinking it was cloned! I have the hops right and the color. Malt is close, but different...can't quite put my finger on what the difference is. Glad you did the side by side...it is a great learning tool in my opinion! From the pix, I would say yours looks almost like a porter with a wee bit of amber showing through. Beginning to think I need to back down on the dark crystal after seeing that picture. How much did you use and how much special roast? Cheers!
TrickyDick said:Well. Stone AB On the right. Mine on the left.
Mine is darker, more brown than red but hues of red noted. I've noticed since using beer smith, all my brews come out a bit darker than expected.
Mine has more malty aroma. Figs and dark fruits. Stone has a more neural floral aroma
Flavor. Well there is a lot going on in mine. Very malty. Toast like, plums and figs and dark fruits. Smooth. Hops are there for sure but smooth and not as, well, arrogant. The stone brew carries the bitterness over the tip of the tongue all the way to the throat. There are hints of roasted barley in this I swear. The bitterness lingers well into the aftertaste and persists after the malt flavors subside. My version is perceptibly less bitter on the mid palate and for sure not as bitter in the back palate and throat.
Mouth feel is identical best I can tell. Equally dry and smooth drinking.
I think that my brew I had some hop extraction problems. I've since switched to a different regulator and the boil is more vigorous. This could be part of it. The hop flavors are difficult to pick out in mine because the malt is more prominent and masks that aspect you sense in AB, but I think that the hops are very close.
AB does have some definite but very subdued plum flavors in there too I can sense.
As my samples warm a bit I perceive more hops in my own brew while in the Real AB the malt flavors come out more as it warms.
Aromas is waay off on mine. Specialty malt.
ABV and OG/FG are identical AFAIK.
This was fun. I'll take another stab at it in 2014. May bottle some for future reference. It's tough to down a whole bomber and also a highball of my own 7.2%
TD
Nice write up! Mind sharing the recipe you used? And why the special roast? I agree that the beer has a roasty taste, but always found special roast more tangy tasting than anything, though that may just be me.
I really think you guys should have a look at Weyermann Caraaroma. I don't work for Weyermann, I swear!
I have some Caraaroma and some Special B in front of me. Please note I am not an expert or anything, just my immediate thoughts. The Caraaroma is visibly, obviously darker. Some of the grains look almost as dark as a pale chocolate. The lightest Caraaroma grains are about the same colour as the darkest Special B.
The Special B smells like raisins. Sweet raisins. Smelling it, you know it will be sweet. It has that sugary, caramel tone to it. You know what it smells like? Slightly burned raisin cookies, like a hint of barely burned cookies underneath the raisins. Maybe a hint of the plum people talk about.
The Caraaroma smells like burned plums. Like a Christmas plum pudding. It reminds me of dark rum, although that could just be my brain associating it with the pudding. There is no immediate rasiny sweetness like in Special B, the straight up first impression is all burned plums. The burned/roasted aroma is way stronger, using the cookie analogy, if your cookies smelled like this it would be one of those "OH CRAP!" moments, running to the oven, but it's too late, they're burned, but not so badly you can't eat them. Definitely a bit of a "dark chocolate" sensation coming through, nothing like you'd get from chocolate malt, but ... let's say you made a chocolate glaze, put it on a plum pudding, and it accidentally burned? That's what I imagine this would smell like.
It seems like "not roasty enough" is the top complaint for what is missing in the clone malts, and I think that this might give that roasty edge without quite entering "chocolate malt" sorts of flavours.
Your results may differ!
Dang, that's a lot of hops. Me thinks a little overboard, but it should be a good hoppy beer.
reuliss said:Well, I'm sure I won't get the IBU's that the program calculated. And all I'm really adding is an additional ounce during the boil at 60 min and an additional one at flame out. Now, I admit that that 60 min addition will add a lot more bitterness, but that was what I saw as the major flaw of my first attempt. The malt actually seemed close to me (though I know that's controversial on this thread), but there was NO DOUBT that my beer needed way more bitterness to emulate the commerical beer.
Do you do anything to your water? Sorry if this has been asked already. Burtonizing your water will increase the bitterness. I'm not saying you should do that but adding some salts may be worth a shot too.
reuliss: Your recipe looks good to me! Only thing I might change would be to move that 60 addition to FWH. I found when I did that it made a huge impact on the flavor and really nailed the hop character of this beer. I like your malt choices and reducing the SB was something I think needs to be tried. Since we are neighbors, I am happy to come by sometime and do a taste test...grin!
Cheers!
reuliss said:Okay, here's what Im going to go with this weekend. Significantly more hops than my last batch, 4 oz less special B and the addition of the pale chocolate. Arrogant Bastard v.2 Style: Unassigned OG: 1.074 Type: All Grain FG: 1.018 Rating: 0.0 ABV: 7.34 % Calories: 242 IBU's: 114.86 Efficiency: 70 % Boil Size: 7.52 Gal Color: 21.2 SRM Batch Size: 6.00 Gal Preboil OG: 1.064 Boil Time: 60 minutes Fermentation Steps Name Days / Temp Primary 7 days @ 69.0°F Grains & Adjuncts Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity 18.00 lbs 92.90 % Pale Malt (2 Row) US 60 mins 1.036 1.25 lbs 6.45 % Special B Malt 60 mins 1.030 2.00 ozs 0.65 % Fawcett Pale Chocolate 60 mins 1.030 Hops Amount IBU's Name Time AA % 1.00 ozs 35.26 Chinook 90 mins 13.00 1.00 ozs 32.97 Chinook 60 mins 13.00 1.00 ozs 30.27 Chinook 45 mins 13.00 1.00 ozs 16.36 Chinook 15 mins 13.00 2.00 ozs 0.00 Chinook 0 mins 13.00 Yeasts Amount Name Laboratory / ID 1.0 pkg Dry English Ale White Labs 0007 Additions Amount Name Time Stage 0.50 each Whirlfloc Tablet 15 mins Boil Mash Profile Light Body Infusion In 75 min @ 145.0°F Add 19.38 qt ( 1.00 qt/lb ) water @ 162.0°F Full Body Infusion In 15 min @ 160.0°F Add 8.72 qt water @ 200.0°F Sparge Sparge 12.06 qt of 170.0°F water over 60 mins
My recently brewed Stone Double Bastard is missing some of the Chinook goodness that comes in the bottle.
The 5.5 gallon batch has 5.5 oz. of Chinook (12.7 AA) - 3.5 oz. at 90 minutes, 1.75 at 15, and .5 at flameout (about 180F). It is plenty hoppy but that distinctive Chinook aroma and flavor is absent. OG and FG is 1.104 and 1.024.
With that said, I am considering dry hopping.
How much of the 12.7 AA Chinook will I need to get noticeable flavor and aroma out of the keg?
It is still conditioning in the carboy therefore not carbonated. Will the CO2 bring out some of the aromatics after it has been under pressure? Flat vs. carbonated beer tasted different ...
Took my first taste tonight. Hopping level right, but malt? Nope. Has anyone done a batch with nothing but pale malt and c 160?
reuliss said:You know, after this batch has matured a bit more, I'm realizing that I'm not too far off. Bought a fresh bomber of AB last night and did a side by side. Pretty darn close. Hops taste the same. My malt profile is less intense, but the flavor components are all there. I just need to dial it up. I'm thinking either more Special B, or switching to Extra Dark English Crystal (C-160, I think). Also, perhaps I mashed too low afterall. It could be a contributing factor. Please let me know if anyone has tried the 160. But seriously, though. This recipe isn't "it," but it's really close.
stonebrewer said:Stone does almost all their beers at 90 minutes. Uses more fuel and probably isn't really needed, but I do it because they do it. May get some milliard or caramelization flavors witht he extra boil plus better hop utilization. It is ready to drink pretty quickly...I keg so can't answer the bottling question, but I have kegged mine and generally tap it 30 days after I brew...Cheers!
A big flavor component that is overlooked is Stone's yeast strain.
stonebrewer said:Isn't it close or the same as WLP007? I have had great success with that yeast! Fermentation temperatures do have a dramatic effect on that strain as well...can get the bubble gum flavor like the Cali-Belgique has if you let it ferment at the right temp... I am thinking about doing this and several other beers with Conan to see what that does. Should be an interesting experiment. May even do something like 5 gallons with 007 and 5 with Conan...
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