Can I add new/more yeast if 1st batch of yeast was dead?

[dna_alexov]

I'm a newb to making beer. Only made two "beer kits" a few years ago, but now want to get back into it. Eventually I want to make my own beer from scratch, but first I want to experiment with the easy kits.

I made a new batch today with a kit. The yeast was 2 years past its expiry date. Did some reading on this forum, and although many said to just buy new yeast I did read that some have had success with 2+ year old yeast. So I tried it. Been about 8 hours now, and no bubbles or action of any sort. I suspect the yeast was dead.

So my question. Can I add a new packet of yeast into this same batch, or is it all toilet water now? Should I wait a few days before putting in new yeast? Should I somehow filter out the dead yeast?

Thanks

 

[lumpher]

wait till tomorrow morning. if it's still not going at it, add new yeast

 

[dna_alexov]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Forgot to add one more question. When I sprinkled the yeast, I did mix it around with the spoon for about 10 seconds. Am I supposed to stir after adding yeast? If so, do I really want to mix hard so it gets all throughout or just a little?

Thanks

 

[lumpher]

i sprinkle the yeast, let it sit for about 30 minutes, then swish the fermenter around

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I either rehydrate or just sprinkle it right on and snap the lid down.

But as far as your yeast being dead.... I really doubt aaaall of the yeast in the packet is dead even after 2 years. Also, 8 hours isn't nearly enough time to determine if fermentation has begun. The general consensus on homebrewtalk is fermentation can often take 12-72 hours to show actives signs..... and by active signs I do not mean airlock bubbling. It should never be used as a gauge for fermentation beginning or finishing; that's what your hydrometer is for

Give it time. I'm sure you'll see a krausen or a drop in OG by tomorrow afternoon or the following morning. Just don't be surprised if it takes a bit longer as the viability of the packet, while not zero, will be decently low.

 

[unionrdr]

I made the ale in my avatar pic with an cooper's OS lager can from 6/09 as a base for adding DME & hops. The yeast in the top of the false lid was as old (cooper's gold ale yeast sachet). So,I decided to make a starter out of 1 1/2C of water,& 1/4C DME. Covered it with plastic wrap with a quick check thermometer in it. Got it down to about 75F,& pitched the yeast,stirring it very lightly. Let it sit the 3.5hrs it took to boil water for my additions & the cooper's can. It took about 1hr,45mins to show signs of life. So keep that in mind,it gets things going quicker in this situation.
But not to worry,it will get going,since so far as the yeasties are concerned,it's a giant starter. They always have a reproductive phase before initial fermentation gets into full vigor. It'll be 1-3 days before you can actually see it working. Usually you'll see krausen on top before you see bubbles in the air lock. So be patient,it will happen.

 

[dna_alexov]

OK, been about 3 days now, and the yeast is DEAD as can be. No krausen, bubbles, and just checkerd with hydrometer and sg has not changed at all (was 1.042 3 days ago, and still is).

So my question. Is it safe/ok to add new Lastly, I have one more packet of the same dead yeast - I suspect the 2nd packet is dead too, though should I try it or just toss it? Any harm in trying a 2nd packet if the 2nd turns out being dead too?

Thanks

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I would get some new yeast and use that. No harm that can come of using the other pack, or at least no more harm than the first would. I would suggest getting new yeast.

Hell, I have used bread yeast to some success, which is useful if you have no brew shop near by.

Rehydrate your yeast, according to these instructions (without proofing step):

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

You should be able to tell if the yeast is alive and well or not before tossing it into the brew.

Again, if able, get some new yeast. That way you are free of any worry.

 

[dna_alexov]

OK, I got new dry yeast from the store yesterday and pitched it last night. Been almost 24 hrs and nothing? No krausen, no bubbles, no nothing?? Any ideas - is the wort bad? Even if so, why would the yeast not feast on the 1.1kg of dextrose I put into the wort?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

It's likely going to be a weak fermentation with little-to-no visible signs. It also might take a little more than 24 hours to get going.

My advice would be to wait another day or two and trust your hydrometer.

 

[jaycount]

What temps are you fermenting at? What kind of yeast did you pitch originally and what kind have you repitched? Do you have an ingredient list for the kit? Just wanting to check out the details.

Fermentation can take up to 72 hours to show any signs of fermentation, and as stated above the hydrometer reading will be the real signs.

 

[dna_alexov]

Ok, I pitched newly bought wine yeast about 7 days ago. As my post original stated, this was the 2nd packet since the 1st was 2+ years past its expiry and was totally dead (wort sat for 3 days with absolutely no change in gravity with the 1st packet). After 24 hours of pitching the new yeast, I saw a thin layer of krausen. Today I tested the gravity and it is now at 1020 (OG was 1042). I assume this is only half done? Or should I assume the gravity will now not change much? If it doesn't change, does that mean my alcohol content will only be about 2.2%?

BTW - I am not planning to transfer to a secondary (just plan to keep in primary until it is ready for the keg). Would you suggest the secondary may help?

Thanks

 

[lumpher]

only wine yeast for a beer?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Yeah, dude.... you're going to get a FG of less than 1.000. That what wine yeast does.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

dna:

Fermentation is done when you can take a reading two days after the last reading and they are the same number. 1.020 is pretty high, so it should come down more.

This batch may end up under the "lesson learned" category. See it through, but learn from your mistakes and get another batch ready to go. Make sure you use the right yeast for the right job; not only beer yeast rather than wine yeast, but preferably the one that suits your beer's style.

 

[lumpher]

Yeah, dude.... you're going to get a FG of less than 1.000. That what wine yeast does.

i've heard it used for lambics after the lambic yeast, for barleywine after the real yeast. but only wine yeast?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

i've heard it used for lambics after the lambic yeast, for barleywine after the real yeast. but only wine yeast?

Eeeexactly. Adding it after other yeasts makes it so they can never really dominate due to (a) a high population of the original yeast, and (b) there aren't many fermentables and there sure as heck isn't any O2 so they are never really able to reproduce and go crazy like they do by themselves.

Adding wine yeast late cuts off some of their biochemical pathways. Adding it from the get-go will give you... um, I dunno, Beer Sherry?

 

[dna_alexov]

Just checked the yeast I used - my reply was wrong. I used Nottinghams brewing yeast.

I'm now confused with some of the recent replies. First what is wrong if the yeast get the FG below 1.000 - doesn't the lower it go mean the higher alcohol. With a OG of 1042, wouldn't something like 099 be good (would be about 5% that way?)

Oh, I also tasted a sip today, and it did taste a little bitter, but it is a dark beer so maybe this is normal. Oh, and it was quite fizzy with decent head (and I have not hooked it to my CO2 yet) - does this sound right?

Thanks

 

[lumpher]

i think we're agreeing, reno... no workee... dna: the lower the gravity, the dryer, or more sour and bitter, the beer is.

 

[dna_alexov]

If lower FG means bitter and sour better, then does that mean my OG was low? At a OG of 1042, sounds like I will end up with a 2 or 3% beer. If a FG is supposed to be above 1.000, then should a OG not be at least 1060 for an average 5% beer? Should I next time add more sugar and test OG before pitching yeast?

Thanks

 

[Reno_eNVy]

i think we're agreeing, reno... no workee...

Oh, of course! I wasn't arguing, just reinforcing

Just checked the yeast I used - my reply was wrong. I used Nottinghams brewing yeast.

Cool, you'll be fine then. It works hard but given your conditions I'd say it's had to work harder to get established in the environment (read: wort) and is going a little slower. With Notty you'll probably be seeing an FG around 1.008.

I'm now confused with some of the recent replies. First what is wrong if the yeast get the FG below 1.000 - doesn't the lower it go mean the higher alcohol.

Of course! But as the gravity drops, there goes your flavor, too. Fermentation creates CO2 and secondary metabolites that can "scrub" flavors out of your beer. As the vast majority of what you "taste" is actually smell and smelly things are caused by volatile compounds, the CO2 will drag these "tastes" along with it.

Also, wine yeast can eat sugars that are unfermentable by beer yeast. A lot of beer styles get their flavor from the malty sweetness left by unfermentables.

Oh, I also tasted a sip today, and it did taste a little bitter, but it is a dark beer so maybe this is normal. Oh, and it was quite fizzy with decent head (and I have not hooked it to my CO2 yet) - does this sound right?

[Insert Scooby-Doo confused noise]

Nah, just kidding. It's only been 7 days since pitching. So that's 4-6 days of full active fermentation. Fermentation creates CO2 and it often stays in solution until it's perturbed. Thus the fizz and head.

If lower FG means bitter and sour better, then does that mean my OG was low? At a OG of 1042, sounds like I will end up with a 2 or 3% beer. If a FG is supposed to be above 1.000, then should a OG not be at least 1060 for an average 5% beer? Should I next time add more sugar and test OG before pitching yeast?

Your OG was not too low. I've made apfelwein with an OG of 1.085 and Lalvin EC-1118 (champagne yeast) took that mofo down to 0.995.

You shouldn't concern yourself with getting below 1.000 with a beer yeast. Unless you have an infection or are mashing incredibly low there will always be unfermentables (to beer yeast, at least) that will keep the FG above 1.000.

As for what your expected %ABV will be, if the Notty gets it down to 1.012 you're looking at ~4%, 1.010 will get you 4.22%, 1.008 will be ~4.5%

And don't worry about %ABV being too low. I just have to say one piece of sage advice: learn to appreciate the lower gravity ("session") brews. They can really pack some flavor and are incredibly refreshing and quaffable. Bigger isn't always better