Can a standard be established for mash pH measurement time?

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sixhotdogneck

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Can a standard be established for mash pH measurement time?

10 min. from dough in, 15 min. from dough in, when recirculating, when not recirculating, dark grist, light grist, decoction, etc... all kinds of variables.

(Not talking an individual standard "I always measure at 15 min..." but a global standard.)

Not asking if there should be a standard or why have a standard, I'm asking if it *can* be standardized, does the process lend itself to standardization.
 
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Not asking if there should be a standard or why have a standard....
Without answering these two fundamental questions, I don't think you can have a standard. There needs to be an industry drive towards a standard.

I am not sure that the "when" can be standardized given that mashing is an art-like step. Sure there is science behind it; enzymes working over ranges of temperatures, etc... But, there is no standard mashing procedure. There are ferulic acid rests, protein rests, decoctions, double-decoctions, etc.. How does having a standard time fit into all of these, and how does it improve the industry?
 
The issue is one that must in my opinion be viewed from two perspectives:

1) If your desire is to actively change the pH during the mash, then you must measure pH very early, while there is still saccharification taking place.

2) If your desire is to determine the most accurate reflection of mash pH overall you must measure late, sometime post saccharification and pre-boil.

The problem with the former is that mash water has not yet permeated into the deepest confines of the grains and thereby released all of the acidity (be it on a relative basis acidic or basic with respect to the mash pH target) bound within the grains, so clearly such a measurement is not going to provide a true reflection of mash pH.

The problem with the latter is that it does not allow for the time within which to chase the tail of the mash pH. But this is not really a problem, but rather is a reflection of reality.

Most grists, though not all, with this being dependent upon (among other things) the diastatic power of the grist as a whole, have essentially completed their saccharification phase by the 30 minute mark, as can be attested by iodine testing. So perhaps a valid mash pH is impossible to attain any earlier than at this juncture.

Let's look at this from the perspective of a light colored Pilsner base malt SMaSH recipe. For this case, the grist (albeit, as for all grists, acidic) is actually quite basic with respect to the mash pH target, and therefore acid has most likely been added to the mash water. At 10 minutes post doughing in the basic pH nature of all of the grains has not yet been liberated into the still actively developing wort, since saccharification is still actively in progress. So at this juncture the acids added to the mash water have not yet had time to locate and act upon fully all of the essentially basic grist, and be neutralized to some extent thereby, so an artificially low mash pH is measured due to some as yet unreacted acid still left over from the initial acid addition. A mash pH taken early for this case is clearly incorrect and biased artificially to the low side as a consequence (and as a consequence mash pH software that tends to give lower pH forecasts overall is simultaneously and equally artificially and unjustly vindicated). Given more time and permitting all of saccharification to run its full course, for this case a latter pH measurement will come in higher than an early measurement since less free acid and also lesser of some unreacted minerals are present within the mash water. And this late mash pH reading will be correct.

And for the opposite case whereby the grist for a robustly dark recipe is highly acidic with respect to the mash pH target of choice, and whereby a base such as baking soda has been added up front, the opposite case occurs. And for this case an early pH reading indicates a falsely high mash pH as a consequence.

Until saccharification has fully run its active course, which may in some cases require fully 90 minutes of mashing, a true reflection of the "overall" completion of all of the underlying reactions is not yet finished, and a static pH level has not yet been achieved within the wort.

So the best time to test for "true" mash pH may be right before the raising of the mash temperature to achieve "mash out", or for those of us who do not "mash out", wherein some small level of saccharification may persist right up to the completion of vorloft, for this case it may be best to take the mash pH sample right at the conclusion of the vorloft step.

And in all of this circulation will allow for better mash pH readings than will merely stirring the mash occasionally.

Again , this reflects merely my opinion on this matter.
 
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Just recently a forum member charted his mash pH for what I recall to be a Blonde Ale. At around 15 minutes into the mash he measured and found a pH of 5.42, which was right on the money with respect to his softwares targeted pH output. But as he continued to measure right up to the end of the mash and into the vorloft stage, I believe he charted the pH drifting upward to around 5.57 and then eventually to roughly the 5.63 pH range, meaning that in the end his software was in error and he should have added more acid. Plus he should not have sampled so early, as most at this juncture will say "the software said 5.4, and it measured 5.42, so this is perfect" and as such take no further measurements of mash pH. And as a consequence they will completely miss the truth while simultaneously and yet falsely believing themselves to have found the truth.
 
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Plus he should not have sampled so early, as most at this juncture will say "the software said 5.4, and it measured 5.42, so this is perfect" and as such take no further measurements of mash pH. And as a consequence they will completely miss the truth while simultaneously and yet falsely believing themselves to have found the truth.

Sometimes, the worst answer to get is the one you were expecting.
 
The facts are that it takes time for the mash liquor to penetrate the grist, solubilize it and react with it. Thus if you record pH over time starting at strike you will observe at first a rapid change in pH (especially if the liquor has had acid or alkali for pH adjustment added to it) which will gradually slow and then assymptotically approach a stable value.I've done hundreds of these measurements with the pH history being recorded by computer and I can assure everyone that that is what happens. Obviously, as our computations (or at least computations done with Gen II software) are based on chemical equilibrium we want that equilibrium reading. How long does it take to get there? About half an hour. Thus when people make readings on malts which readings are to be used for mash pH prediction they should wait half and hour before recording the pH measurement and people checking mash pH, especially those checking against predictive software based on 30 minute measurements should wait 30 min.'

In measuring malts the pH readings were being continuously recorded. I at first published malt data at 15, 20, 25 and 30 min but found the 25 and 30 min data to be pretty much the same for most malts and darn close to the 20 minute data so while there is no standard were my methods to wind up in an MOA I'd push for 30 minutes. Fifteen is too short for sure. I could probably be persuaded to settle for 25.
 
Just one more question that perhaps someone can answer - Is this subject broached in professional brewing texts by the likes of Kunze, De Clerk, etc... ?
 
De Clerck does go into pH measurement in some detail and everyone should read what he has to say if only to engender appreciation of how good we have it today!

If you want the standard procedures as used in the brewing industry you'll have to consult the ASBC's MOA or EBC's analytica.
 
1) If your desire is to actively change the pH during the mash, then you must measure pH very early, while there is still saccharification taking place.

First I will, naturally, agree that taking steps to correct pH as early as possible is going to yield the most benefit. From that POV one should take a couple of measurements as early as possible, plot them and try to eyeball where the pH is going to be at 30 minutes and base his corrections on that. Naturally when one is correcting in the mash tun things are a bit iffy and the stable mash after a corrective addition is likely to represent somewhat of an overshoot or undershoot.

But what I really want to comment on is that this quote implies that we are adjusting pH to optimize saccharification. I don't think that's the case at all. In fact I think we may be sacrificing conversion somewhat in order to get the best beer flavor, mouthfeel, head etc. At least that's what I am doing when I set pH. I don't much care what my over-all conversion efficiency is. I want the most enjoyable beer and have learned where to put pH to get that.
 
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