Calcium Chloride and Gypsum
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Why are you using them? Normally I'd be using these in the strike water for an all-grain brew...
Dgallo
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Like stated above, should be your mash and sparge water. It also should be purposeful, meaning knowing the amount of ca, Cl, and so4 in your source water and adjusting to meet a targeted amount
Directions just say 60 min so I was assuming it was in the boil. Should it be in the mash? That is why I am confused.
Let's back up. What exactly are you brewing? All-grain? If so, and you're using RO water, those almost certainly belong in the strike water so as to create the correct water chemistry in the mash for optimal conversion.
Do you have a source for the directions? Major online sources like MoreBeer and Northern Brewer show their recipe and direction sheets as part of the kits they sell online.
Not morebeer.
Never mind--your instructions aren't what they have online.
You'll note that the additions say "Mash" and 60-minutes. That means you should mix them into the strike water before adding the grain.
Mix them into the strike water before adding the grain.
Everybody starts somewhere, mostly at the beginning. It's been a successful day, you've learned some things. I always get a kick out of having my understanding improve.
Now make some good beer!
Just started. I am new to all grain and trying to start off slowly but I guess that didn’t happen. Just didn’t understand when to add them. Guess I need to do more reading.
Everyone here is so quick to respond and very helpful. First place I come when I need help.
Thanks again. Have a beer on me.
Everyone here is so quick to respond and very helpful. First place I come when I need help.
Thanks again. Have a beer on me.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
Kits get us started, forum discussion moves us forward.
Lots of moving parts when it comes to brewing. Lots of combinations to those moving parts when reading online discussions across the years.
Maybe someone here can link to an online all-grain brew day outline (with bonus likes for an outline that is appropriately "poka-yoke"d). There are a couple of recent homebrewing books that offer an outline.
edit: removed some marginally related content.
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One thing I read in the brew science section is that gypsum, calcium chloride and lactic acid should be put in room temp water and stir to dissolve.
Interesting. I've never done it that way, at least not for the last 40 or 50 brews. I add those things at strike temp.
couchsending
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I add all the salts destined for sparge water to the kettle... that way the calcium actually ends up in the fermenter
I add my salts directly to the mash; literally on top of the milled grain before the strike water goes in, except for the lactic acid which I add after I've mashed in. Every batch that will have late addition hops gets 2 tsp of gypsum, and if I'm doing a lager, 1 tsp each of calcium chloride & lactic acid to soften the water. Not very scientific, yes I know, but it works. Made a huge difference in my last Czech.
My understanding is that some salts dissolve more completely at room temp rather than at strike temp.
- Find out why you're adding salts (this is the hardest part; learning water chemistry as it relates to brewing).
- Add salts and/or acid to the mash for pH purposes.
- Add salts to the boil (not the sparge water) for taste purposes.
- Add acid to sparge water only if fly sparging, where high pH (and tannin extraction) are potential issues.
I don't understand #3. Why does it matter if the salt is added to the sparge? I've always added it to both. As I recall Brunwater will do the math either way.
Adding salts to points that aren't the mash is essentially done to hit a specific profile (either a city or a SO4:CL ratio). Since it's after the mash, it's done for flavor purposes, not mash pH. Adding the salts to the sparge water is more likely to not have it ultimately end up in the boil kettle, and because you're just doing it for end-game flavor purposes, adding to the boil kettle is more efficient.
I still don't follow. I salt for levels, not for ratios. 200 SO & 100 CL is not the same as 40 SO and 20 CL even though the ratios are the same. If I bring my mash water to 200/100 and then add an undecided amount of 0/0 sparge water, I will wind up with something less than the 200/100 that I wanted. If I bring my mash water to 200/100 and then add an undecided amount of 200/100 sparge water, I should wind up pretty close to 200/100 for the overall wort. I could start with something higher than 200/100 mash and dilute it to 200/100 sparge, but my gut tells me that is a little less reliable than the other way. I've not tried to verify it by experiment.
Saw a few older posts from Martin, and this was the main reason I've not added salts to the sparge water:
"Since we shouldn't be adding alkalinity to sparging water...you would not add minerals such as baking soda, lime, or chalk to the sparging water. The other typical minerals such as gypsum, table salt, and calcium chloride would not increase mash pH." I think the the recent years, it has been shown that as long as pH of the sparge water is in check, you shouldn't worry about extraction of tannins, so salts shouldn't play into that.
(and from a separate post)
"Now there is a drawback to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The calcium ends up complexing with phytins from the malt. Some of that calcium is lost in the mash, but that is a minor price to pay for the benefits mentioned above."
And the benefit he mentions is that:
"For brewers using water with little mineralization, there is a clear advantage to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The extra mineralization added to the sparging water provides a couple of benefits. The first is that the increased osmotic stress on the cells of the grain from the higher mineralization should help reduce the extraction of undesirable components like tannins and silicate from the grain. Another benefit is that extra calcium in the sparging water helps complex with oxalates from the grain and helps keep them out of the kettle."
"Since we shouldn't be adding alkalinity to sparging water...you would not add minerals such as baking soda, lime, or chalk to the sparging water. The other typical minerals such as gypsum, table salt, and calcium chloride would not increase mash pH." I think the the recent years, it has been shown that as long as pH of the sparge water is in check, you shouldn't worry about extraction of tannins, so salts shouldn't play into that.
(and from a separate post)
"Now there is a drawback to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The calcium ends up complexing with phytins from the malt. Some of that calcium is lost in the mash, but that is a minor price to pay for the benefits mentioned above."
And the benefit he mentions is that:
"For brewers using water with little mineralization, there is a clear advantage to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The extra mineralization added to the sparging water provides a couple of benefits. The first is that the increased osmotic stress on the cells of the grain from the higher mineralization should help reduce the extraction of undesirable components like tannins and silicate from the grain. Another benefit is that extra calcium in the sparging water helps complex with oxalates from the grain and helps keep them out of the kettle."
Interesting. I guess the most precise answer then is: "It depends." 
I start with RO water and typically add only Gypsum and CaCl. So I guess I am one those Martin says benefits from salting the sparge water. I guess I am also guilty of being one of those who thinks that if it is the right way for me, it must be the right way for everyone. It is not.
Thanks for clearing this up.
I start with RO water and typically add only Gypsum and CaCl. So I guess I am one those Martin says benefits from salting the sparge water. I guess I am also guilty of being one of those who thinks that if it is the right way for me, it must be the right way for everyone. It is not.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Just MO. I would skip the flour.
My process is to add salts to strike water before doughing in for PH adjustment. Then add “sparge” salts to boil kettle since most of these salts will get caught up in the grain and not pass to the kettle. I agree with @cactusgarrett. If you’re just starting out water is super confusing but if you’re wanting to learn more details I would recommend picking up a few books like the water book by Jamil and Chris White. Also, Denny and drew are coming out with a new book about simple brewing which has some water tips. Good luck and welcome
Oh also! there’s some really good podcast out there that have covered water. Brew strong, basic brewing radio, BeerSmith podcast.
My process is to add salts to strike water before doughing in for PH adjustment. Then add “sparge” salts to boil kettle since most of these salts will get caught up in the grain and not pass to the kettle. I agree with @cactusgarrett. If you’re just starting out water is super confusing but if you’re wanting to learn more details I would recommend picking up a few books like the water book by Jamil and Chris White. Also, Denny and drew are coming out with a new book about simple brewing which has some water tips. Good luck and welcome
Oh also! there’s some really good podcast out there that have covered water. Brew strong, basic brewing radio, BeerSmith podcast.
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bierhaus15
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Well, they were called "Kettle Salts" for the last 150 years of brewing history, but if home brewers have decided they are to be added in the sparge water, so be it.
No offense to whomever, but I can't see a single instance where you'd not want to add the salts to the kettle (assuming they were added to the mash). I suspect this is coming from that quasi revisionist home brewing movement where calcium is no longer deemed important, yet all the supposed benefits of adding salts to the sparge water are the same benefits of adding enough Ca to the mash.
Adding salts to the sparge is not necessary if you already added enough Ca and other ions in the mash. So long as your sparge pH and alkalinity is fine, adding salts to the kettle has the side of effect of ensuring they actually end up in the wort. You'll lose 75% or more of your Ca ions in the mash/sparge, and losses to Mg, S04, and Cl are similar, albeit less important. Some are lost when added in the kettle as well, but the effect is far less.
No offense to whomever, but I can't see a single instance where you'd not want to add the salts to the kettle (assuming they were added to the mash). I suspect this is coming from that quasi revisionist home brewing movement where calcium is no longer deemed important, yet all the supposed benefits of adding salts to the sparge water are the same benefits of adding enough Ca to the mash.
Adding salts to the sparge is not necessary if you already added enough Ca and other ions in the mash. So long as your sparge pH and alkalinity is fine, adding salts to the kettle has the side of effect of ensuring they actually end up in the wort. You'll lose 75% or more of your Ca ions in the mash/sparge, and losses to Mg, S04, and Cl are similar, albeit less important. Some are lost when added in the kettle as well, but the effect is far less.
MGamber
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Nice, thanks! I just started adding salts to the sparge water (been using straight RO the past couple of years) with the thinking that if the pH is in check, I can sparge hotter. Went to a pH of 5.3 and temp of 172 this time around and it's bubbling away in the fermenter. It'll be interesting to see if there's any difference in a couple weeks.
couchsending
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Well, they were called "Kettle Salts" for the last 150 years of brewing history, but if home brewers have decided they are to be added in the sparge water, so be it.
No offense to whomever, but I can't see a single instance where you'd not want to add the salts to the kettle (assuming they were added to the mash). I suspect this is coming from that quasi revisionist home brewing movement where calcium is no longer deemed important, yet all the supposed benefits of adding salts to the sparge water are the same benefits of adding enough Ca to the mash.
Adding salts to the sparge is not necessary if you already added enough Ca and other ions in the mash. So long as your sparge pH and alkalinity is fine, adding salts to the kettle has the side of effect of ensuring they actually end up in the wort. You'll lose 75% or more of your Ca ions in the mash/sparge, and losses to Mg, S04, and Cl are similar, albeit less important. Some are lost when added in the kettle as well, but the effect is far less.
For sure the CL, and So4 get caught up in the grains? I had always read that you’ll lose Ca but the other ions will for the most part make it through. Also the higher you alkalinity the more Ca you lose correct?
Seems kinda weird, doesn't it? English IPAs back in the day were always famous for the very hard "Burton water" they were made with. The did not get lost in the mash then, and it is hard to understand why it would get lost today.
Calcium is not necessary for brewing water, but it does have some benefits. Malt provides ALL the calcium that yeast needs for its metabolism, just like it does for magnesium. But calcium in the water does provide some improvement in enzyme stability and it helps remove excess oxalate and that reduces beerstone formation. But there are NO benefits in overdosing calcium into your wort and excessive calcium can actually injure or impair yeast.
While calcium can be precipitated in the mash, chloride and sulfate are completely soluble in the mash and they make it through unreduced. While it makes little difference in the resulting kettle wort concentrations, there 'might' be a benefit if salts are added to the sparging water instead of directly to the kettle due to its effect on osmotic pressure.
While calcium can be precipitated in the mash, chloride and sulfate are completely soluble in the mash and they make it through unreduced. While it makes little difference in the resulting kettle wort concentrations, there 'might' be a benefit if salts are added to the sparging water instead of directly to the kettle due to its effect on osmotic pressure.
What is osmotic pressure?
Interesting. I guess the most precise answer then is: "It depends."
I start with RO water and typically add only Gypsum and CaCl. So I guess I am one those Martin says benefits from salting the sparge water. I guess I am also guilty of being one of those who thinks that if it is the right way for me, it must be the right way for everyone. It is not.
Righto. And I'm one who uses 50/50 RO/tap water with small additions of gypsum and CaCl2, so i'm more concerned about not losing Ca in the mash if added to the sparge. Realistically, though, I'm only adding a second salt addition by means of the boil to maybe 1 in 5 batches anyway. In the grand scheme of things, this aspect doesn't matter whole lot, as beer is still being made and relatively unaffected by the different approaches.
Roughly speaking, the pressure as a result of the difference of ion concentrations inside a cell versus outside. (stop me if i'm wrong, but) Martin's suggesting that salting the sparge water would make those water additions closer in ionic concentrations to the internal contents of the cells in the mash, and thus are less likely to draw out undesireables (ie. tannins) due to the reduced positive pressure the cells are exhibiting.
1/2 cup all purpose flour? What in the world is that used for? Guess I could just google it
So not to derail @penguin69 's original post - you should add salts to the mash to achieve a specific pH, and either sparge water or the boil to hit a specific Cl:SO4 ratio or flavor/water profile. Most important (one would argue) is to hit mash pH, with the flavor aspect second. You can read up on the Cl:SO4 ratio for that.
