Bru'n Water Unbalanced

[ApolloSimcoe]

Hey All. I am taking another stab at using Bru'n Water. I have had some success with it in the past. I recently printed off updated info from my town water supply and the newest version of BW. When I enter the first salt (sodium) it instantly tells me that my water is unbalanced and I haven't entered any other figures yet. Here is the info I pulled off my town water site as well as their link.

Chloride (mg/L) 13
Sodium (mg/L) 55.4
Sulfate (mg/L) 4
Alkalinity, Total (mg/L as CaCO3) 16
Calcium (mg/L) 5.5
Hardness, Total as CaCO3 (mg/L) 17.1
Magnesium (mg/L) 0.81

https://pennichuck.com/PDF_WQR/PennichuckWaterWorks-Nashua.pdf

Am i just missing something, a "Doh!" moment perhaps.

thanks!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

You should really enter all the water properties before drawing any conclusions, but that seems like a lot of sodium.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The report is indeed highly cation/anion unbalanced and as such a water with these combined analytical values is definitively impossible. The most likely reason is that the dates associated with the grab samples for each constituent vary, and it is clear (to me at least) that your waters analyticals must change wildly with time. This often happens when the water is supplied from multiple sources. This variability renders your analytical data and thereby your water unusable in my opinion.

I would call your water company and ask them why they allow the release of such useless analytical information, and if they can supply you with up to date and reliable (cation/anion balanced) analyticals.

You are clearly not alone in this dilemma. I would guess that anyone using community sourced tap water would potentially be in the same boat. And without ever running a cation/anion balance check on their analyticals they would be forever unaware that their presumed accurate water analyticals are simply not possible in the real world.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

This often happens when the water is supplied from multiple sources.

This is a very accurate statement.

You should really enter all the water properties before drawing any conclusions, but that seems like a lot of sodium.

I tried that too, still getting the error. 55 doesn't seem that high to me. I thought it was right in the range and that anything over 75ppm would be an issue. I'm not sure though

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

55 ppm sodium is just about right where I like it to be. That (in and of itself) is not the problem with your analytical report. The +/- ionic charges are not balanced. In the real world positive and negative ionic charges must closely balance, with water pH accounting for the allowance of a small degree of imbalance. There will also be some inevitable reported imbalance due simply to the precision (or in this case imprecision) of the various analytical tests undertaken to derive each constituents concentration.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

55 doesn't seem that high to me. I thought it was right in the range and that anything over 75ppm would be an issue. I'm not sure though

Correct, it would depend on the style of beer your brewing and your personal preferences.

 

[thehaze]

Silver_Is_Money---> You say you like 55 ppm Na. Would that also work in IPAs, Stouts and Belgian Pales and Saisons?

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

I have considered going with RO/Distilled water moving forward. The issue is that i don't have a source to purchase it in bulk and I don't feel like buying 10-12 individual gallons every time I brew. I may be best off using a simpler calculator and diluting with RO/Distilled

 

[brewbama]

I buy distilled water from the local grocery in 2.5 gal jugs. It’s fairly convenient plus I know I am starting at zero across the board. I start with 3 plus a one gallon jug (8.5 gal total). The grain drinks ~ a gal in the mash, I lose ~ a gal in the boil, and I leave ~ a gal when the trub cone hits air and collapses ending up with 5.5 gal in the fermenter. I rack 5 gal into a keg.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Silver_Is_Money---> You say you like 55 ppm Na. Would that also work in IPAs, Stouts and Belgian Pales and Saisons?

I'm not married to strictly 55 ppm sodium. 30 to 60 is fine by me. Higher sodium works particularly well for me in the likes of strong Scotch Ales and sweet Stouts, which are my overall favorites. But it also works in Pilsner's and Vienna lagers. The others are styles I've never attempted, or (as for the case of IPA's) have hardly ever attempted. I'm simply not an IPA fan. But I must premise that I also personally don't like any style of beer to be as dry and crisp as many to perhaps most would prefer them. I like a bit of silky mouthfeel and malt sweetness regardless of the style, and sodium is a step in that direction in my opinion. I also add 7-8% of light caramel/crystal malts to Pils and Pilsners. And sometimes I even add flaked oatmeal to them.

 

[Big Monk]

I buy distilled water from the local grocery in 2.5 gal jugs. It’s fairly convenient plus I know I am starting at zero across the board. I start with 3 plus a one gallon jug (8.5 gal total). The grain drinks ~ a gal in the mash, I lose ~ a gal in the boil, and I leave ~ a gal when the trub cone hits air and collapses ending up with 5.5 gal in the fermenter. I rack 5 gal into a keg.

Yup. I go the day before and grab around 8 gallons.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Thanks, as I mentioned previously buying water in bulk RO/Distilled in my area isn't an option. I wish it were. Since it isn't an option I was hoping to just get some insight on the spreadsheet.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks, as I mentioned previously buying water in bulk RO/Distilled in my area isn't an option. I wish it were. Since it isn't an option I was hoping to just get some insight on the spreadsheet.

Have you thought of sending a sample to Ward Labs? You either have to know what is in your water or use RO/Distilled.

I don;t like schlepping 8-10 gallons home for a batch but I do it because then i know what I have.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

I have considered doing the Ward Labs route as well. Is there a possibility that the info that my water supplier gives is wrong? If Ward sends me back comparable info to my existing report this won't help my issue. Previously Bru'n water did balance for me with the info i pulled off my town water supply. These are the figures from my old report and it balanced.

Calcium 21.1
Mag 2.1
Sodium 55.4
Carbonate (CO3) 38.7
Sulfate 6
Chloride 63

I really would like to use BW if possible. It seems to be the most indepth water tool there is.

Thanks again for the replies!

 

[Big Monk]

I have considered doing the Ward Labs route as well. Is there a possibility that the info that my water supplier gives is wrong? If Ward sends me back comparable info to my existing report this won't help my issue. Previously Bru'n water did balance for me with the info i pulled off my town water supply. These are the figures from my old report and it balanced.

Calcium 21.1
Mag 2.1
Sodium 55.4
Carbonate (CO3) 38.7
Sulfate 6
Chloride 63

I really would like to use BW if possible. It seems to be the most indepth water tool there is.

Thanks again for the replies!

It's very likely that the water company is misreporting.

I am in the camp that says unless you have a proven and stable tap water source, then you should be using RO/Distilled no matter how much of a headache it is to procure and transport.

I think trying to use tap water has caused more unnecessary headaches for people than can truly be estimated.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

It may come to that. We do have 3 breweries in my immediate area, one being AB which is right in my town and one small craft brewer in town as well and the third is the next town over. My sense is that the two small brewers are just filtering town water and AB may have its own wells but they may pull from the local river as well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have considered doing the Ward Labs route as well. Is there a possibility that the info that my water supplier gives is wrong?

It's not that it's wrong, it's that it is a composite. A composite which can't actually exist. The people who publish these composite averages likely have no awareness of the impossibility aspect of it. They likely believe they are doing us a favor by reporting averages.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

The most likely reason is that the dates associated with the grab samples for each constituent vary,

I noticed this as well. The dates from the report swing from 9/5/17 (sodium) to 9/5/18 (other minerals)

I may just lower the sodium amount on the spreadsheet and try to keep in mind that levels are higher when i look at the adjustment summary page.

 

[mabrungard]

The 'unbalanced' flag that is presented in Bru'n Water is intended to alert the user that something is wrong with the reported or entered ion values. It doesn't mean that you can't go ahead and use the data. It does mean that something might not be correct and you won't know what it is.

The 55 ppm sodium is not a problem in brewing. I often add sodium to my brewing water for flavor effect. I wouldn't necessarily push the sodium level any higher though.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Awesome! Thanks for the response Martin and the great water calculator!!

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Martin- I noticed that some of the cells on the Grain Bill Input tab are pre-populated with 10lbs of 2-Row and Lovibond for crystal, special B, Carafa and Chocolate, and acidulated. Can you provide some insight as to why?

 

[thehaze]

The entries in those cells can be removed and replaced with anything else you like. I simply removed all of them, as I do not need it. I usually brew more than one batch at a time, and so I only choose " Base/Crystal/Roast/Acid malt " and add the qty and Lovibond of the malt, as they change from recipe to recipe. And I also do not like typing the name of each malt every time I need to make a change for a particular recipe.

 

[mabrungard]

Martin- I noticed that some of the cells on the Grain Bill Input tab are pre-populated with 10lbs of 2-Row and Lovibond for crystal, special B, Carafa and Chocolate, and acidulated. Can you provide some insight as to why?

As indicated, they are just examples to let users know what they could enter there. The Supporter's version has the ability to save and recall your recipe files, so being able to include the grain names is important.

By the way, I hate entering data for recipes too. But since I do like to repeat and refine recipes, the save and recall function is a real time saver.

 

[lasultana]

Hi, Ive got the same issues. Its saying the water report of a friend of mine is unbalanced.

This is what I have:
pH 7.65
Nitrate 4.4 ppm
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) 387 ppm
Calcium 109 ppm
Magnesium 22 ppm
Sodium 29 ppm
Chloride 94 ppm
Sulphate 56 ppm
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 311 ppm

Accoring to the Alkalinity conversion calulator
311 ppm (alkalinity) and 7.65 pH results in 378 ppm bicarbonate and 0.8 ppm carbonate.
I put these values in the upper table and it says its unbalanced.

Anything wrong?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I put these values in the upper table and it says its unbalanced.

Anything wrong?

It may be an average of several blended (or seasonally selected, or both) water sources analyticals. Averaging across two or more divergent waters analyticals inevitably leads to cation/anion imbalance.

 

[lasultana]

Well the water is a blend apparently, just confirmed that. That's why he sent the water to a company that analyses water.
The upper values were measured.
So shall we just use them and stop caring about the error message?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Well the water is a blend apparently, just confirmed that. That's why he sent the water to a company that analyses water.
The upper values were measured.
So shall we just use them and stop caring about the error message?

You can always do that, but this is a problem highly akin to someone trying to get from point A to point B, with the snag that they don't know where point A is. If you don't know where you are, how can you ever get from there to where you want to be?

 

[mabrungard]

Water is NEVER unbalanced. Only the data that you input is. That warning is telling you that something is wrong and you need to dig in and find it. Your water reports are almost worthless.