Bru'n water stout help

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srice

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I am preparing to venture into the world of stouts and porters (have been brewing mostly pale ales, ESBs and blonde ales). I have my water chemistry down and can brew my house beers very repeatably. When I first entered my recipe for a chocolate stout, I saw that I had to do some crazy pickling lime additions to get my alkalinity where it needed to be. A little research helped me change my plan and realize that I would be better served to add the roasted grains at mashout. This solves my mash pH issue. My remaining question is what water profile should I shoot for? - the black balanced that is characteristic of the stout or an amber which is what I will be mashing (just Maris Otter and C80)?
 
Don't shoot for a water profile.

Shoot for a mash ph of 5.2 and 50 ppm of calcium at least; if you want a more acidic / tart Irish stout (think Guinness Extra Stout) then add a bit of lactic in the boil to drop the pH a tiny bit. (.2 pH drop from your starting kettle pH)


Then adjust your flavor towards malt-focused with calcium chloride or if you're making a style-breaking hoppy stout you could go with gypsum to focus on the hop bitterness. -Add these in the kettle, too as they're more soluable there and you don't want to mess up your mash pH. 1 tsp per 5 gallons is a great starting point, but you'll learn how much you like for each style from experience.


Yep, my recommendation will be significantly different than most that you'll get. Just don't try to follow some sort of theoretical "city profile" and add loads of alkalinity and then loads of acid to drop the alkalinity -that's kinda crazy time ;crazy time that lots of people try, but eventually they learn...

*Putting on Flame Suit as this is going against water chem dogma for many people.*

Adam
 
Um...definitely shoot for a water profile, but don't shoot for City water profiles since they are often the raw water quality and not what the brewers used after their treatment.

Yes, reserving the roasted malts from the main mash can help solve an overly low mash pH, but it doesn't resolve a low kettle wort pH. If the OP was brewing an Irish dry stout, that low kettle pH would be OK. But for other stouts and porters, more alkalinity is needed to help limit the pH drop. If the water supply doesn't have enough alkalinity, then you really have no choice but to supply it to the mash. Although 5.2 mash pH can work for some styles, I find that dark beers are better when mashed at a pH of 5.4 to 5.6.

All the color-based water profiles in Bru'n Water have relatively modest ion content and you are not likely to overwhelm your beer by using them. Either the Black Balanced or Black Malty profiles could be decent targets for stout and porter waters.
 
You don't need to have a water profile in mind except in the broadest sense. You do need to get mash pH right for best beer flavor. Mash pH has little effect on beer pH as that is set mostly by the yeast you choose to use. They will put the pH where they want it unless you make it difficult for them: high wort pH (think if it as a voltage) with lots of alkalinity (think if it as current) behind it, for example). A good value of mash pH for stouts is the same as for any other beer 5.3 - 5.6 should work out OK but you can expect, based on your own experiments, to find a subrange that suits you best for the particular stout you are brewing.

The difficulty with stouts is that it is such a broad category from the light, refreshing, dry Irish style through to the sweet, syrupy, rich heavy tropical stouts and RIS's. The only ones I brew are the first type so I feel competent to talk about them. You can, with a typical recipe and typical water brew without need for any alkalinity. This assumes sane levels of roast barley or black malt - up to say 20%. If you want to go that high then you will need alkalinity to control pH drop. You can also control pH drop by witholding the black malts as suggested but then you would have still set the mash pH to a proper level with just the base, probably using acid to do so and then when you later add the black malts you get their acid too so your wort pH is probably below 5. This is below what is generally recommended as a minimum wort pH but as I have never worked in that realm I can't say what the negative consequences, if any, are likely to be. AFAIK the commercial brewers of stout don't manage mash pH that way and I guess my feeling is that if you manage it properly you shouldn't have to use that technique either.

If you wish to mash just the MO and the 80L with RO water to which you add (per 5 gallons) 2 grams of CaCl2 and a gram of gypsum you could expect a mash pH of about 5.52 (with alkalinity of 100 that would go up to 5.65 or so. If you added 10% black malt to the 0 alkalinity water then you might expect to get mash pH of 5.44. Thus you would not need to withhold the dark malt at all at this level even brewing with 0 alkalinity water. Now were you to double that black malt to 20% (0 alkalinity) you might expect mash pH of 5.37 (and one of those stouts that leaves you, if you are unfortunate to be assigned to them in a competition, with a mouth that tastes as if you have been munching charcoal briquettes at the end of the flight). Note that the two decimal places in pH are not by any means justified in absolute terms because of all the assumptions I have to make but are included so you can see the relative effects. Using 20% with alkalinity 100 water would give an expected mash pH of around 5.47

Now in calculating all that I accidentally forgot to put in the calcium (right around 50 mg/L at the level of the salts I hypothesized) which would drop all the pH's I calculated by approximately 0.06 pH. Even so, you would, in none of the cases except perhaps 20%, 0 alkalinity be terribly uncomfortable with the results using no additional alkalinity. OTOH this certainly does focus bright light on Adam's suggestion that the salts be held back until the boil if you are uncomfortable with a pH of 5.32 (and I think I might be).

Now change any of the assumptions: use different base malts or different black malts or use over 20% black malt/barley and all this changes but it shouldn't change by that much. The idea you should get is that stouts are difficult to predict precisely (unless they are just plain old Irish stout) so that the best approach is test mash with pH meter.
 
Sorry not trying to take over this tread but I am also planning a Dry Stout in the coming days. Unfortunately the area we're in right now has pretty bad water:

Starting Profile ppm
Ca 74
Mg 25
Na 342
SO4 501
Cl 216
HCO3 326
PH 8.1

Planned 5.50gal Recipe:
Maris Otter 67.5%
Flaked Barley 10.4%
Wheat 10.4%
Roasted Barley 9.2%
Rice Hulls 2.6%

So planning to use nearly 100% RO water but when calculating it appears the alkalinity/RA/and Calcium VERY low (even with some Gypsum & Cal Chloride):
Finished Profile ppm
Ca 28
Mg 1
Na 25
SO4 48
Cl 40
HCO3 31

Hardness 76 (ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity 26 (ppm as CaCO3)
RA 5
SO4/Cl 1.20

Batch Volume 6.14 Gallons
Total Mash 3.81 Gallons
Mash Dilution 3.62 Gallons
Total Sparge 4.95 Gallons
Sparge Dilution 4.75 Gallons

Mineral Additions Mash (g) Sparge (g)
Gypsum . 0.6 0.7
Epsom Salt 0.0 0.0
Canning Salt 0.0 0.0
Baking Soda 0.0
Calcium Chloride 0.8 1.0
Chalk . 0.0
Pickling Lime 0.0
Mag Chloride 0.0 0.0

Acid Additions Mash Sparge
(ml) 0.00 0.56
Lactic
88.00
%

If I start over and go less RO, then it's super high Sodium/Sulfate & low Calcium. If I go mostly or all RO and add a bit of pickling lime, its high PH but decent on most of the rest; and can't use Acid malt at the same time right!?

What would you recommend?

Thanks for any help!
Robert
 
I didn't see a projected mash pH in those figures. Shoot for 5.2 for a mash pH for a dry stout. If you sparge with 100% RO, you don't need any acid in the sparge water. I wouldn't add gypsum, but I would use some CaCl2 (calcium chloride) to get my calcium to 40 ppm or higher.
 
...the area we're in right now has pretty bad water:

Starting Profile ppm
Ca 74
Mg 25
Na 342
SO4 501
Cl 216
HCO3 326
PH 8.1
No fear of contradiction there!

Minor point, and I'm not having much luck with it, but we really don't care about the bicarbonate. We care about the alkalinity. The analyst measures alkalinity and bicarbonate is calculated from that. Many of the spreadsheets (and even Ward Labs for years) calculated it wrong so it is better if you tell us the alkalinity directly. I'm assuming it was calculated from the formula which is applicable for lower pH which is bicarb = 61*alk/50 and that, therefore, the alkalinity is about 267. That's a whole lot of alkalinity.


Planned 5.50gal Recipe:
Maris Otter 67.5%
Flaked Barley 10.4%
Wheat 10.4%
Roasted Barley 9.2%
Rice Hulls 2.6%

So planning to use nearly 100% RO water but when calculating it appears the alkalinity/RA/and Calcium VERY low (even with some Gypsum & Cal Chloride):

There are lots of ways to skin this cat. One would be a simple 9:1 dilution with RO. That would reduce everything by a factor of about 10 which would be good for everything but perhaps the calcium so you might want to augment that with 50 - 100 mg CaCl2 per liter of the blended water. Doing that with the grain bill you have specified and making some assumptions about the malts you should realize a mash pH of about 5.5 which makes a pretty good dry stout in my experience.


If I start over and go less RO, then it's super high Sodium/Sulfate & low Calcium. If I go mostly or all RO and add a bit of pickling lime, its high PH but decent on most of the rest;
You wouldn't want to dilute much less than 9:1 because of the alkalinity and sulfate.



...and can't use Acid malt at the same time right!?
Well you can but it isn't really traditional in this kind of beer. But then it isn't really necessary.

What would you recommend?

Simplest thing would be to go with all RO water with half a gram per gallon calcium chloride. If you want some sulfate effect then you could use a quarter gram per gallon each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. This will give you a pH that is around 5.5 (depending on the roast barley's acidity and the buffering capacity of the other malts).

When fooling with high kilned malts a good pH meter can be your best friend.
 
No fear of contradiction there!

Minor point, and I'm not having much luck with it, but we really don't care about the bicarbonate. We care about the alkalinity. The analyst measures alkalinity and bicarbonate is calculated from that. Many of the spreadsheets (and even Ward Labs for years) calculated it wrong so it is better if you tell us the alkalinity directly. I'm assuming it was calculated from the formula which is applicable for lower pH which is bicarb = 61*alk/50 and that, therefore, the alkalinity is about 267. That's a whole lot of alkalinity.

Yes, high calculated as 267 alkalinity (Ward Labs report: Total Alkalinity (CaCO3): 268ppm


There are lots of ways to skin this cat. One would be a simple 9:1 dilution with RO. That would reduce everything by a factor of about 10 which would be good for everything but perhaps the calcium so you might want to augment that with 50 - 100 mg CaCl2 per liter of the blended water. Doing that with the grain bill you have specified and making some assumptions about the malts you should realize a mash pH of about 5.5 which makes a pretty good dry stout in my experience.

Okay yep with 90% diluted with RO and the CaCl2, I'm at 5.5 mash PH. Since I'm going for a Irish (Guiness Extra Stout) style, would you still recommend this high of Mash PH? I am also planning to pour in 3% (.84qt) of reserved Soured beer/wort into the boil. So I assume this would drip the finial beer PH, so this higher Mash PH maybe be warranted so it's not too low?

You wouldn't want to dilute much less than 9:1 because of the alkalinity and sulfate.

Yep true


Simplest thing would be to go with all RO water with half a gram per gallon calcium chloride. If you want some sulfate effect then you could use a quarter gram per gallon each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. This will give you a pH that is around 5.5 (depending on the roast barley's acidity and the buffering capacity of the other malts).

Got it Thanks AJ!

When fooling with high kilned malts a good pH meter can be your best friend.

Yep have my trusty MW101 (i know don't care for :) ).
 
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